Pretty much all amps get more strident when overdriven. Soft clipping helps but one is always well advised to not make an amp work too hard. Nothing special about a set except you get fewer watts before bad things become prevalent.
High value, high efficiency speakers for SET amps
Hi, Gang,
I know that some of what I want to discuss here has been dealt with in other threads, some of them quite old, but I wanted to see if any of you fine, knowledgable folks are willing to help update and consolidate some of this info in a more current thread.
I am currently running my new Audio Note Kit 1 300B SET amp with a pair of Reference 3A De Capo speakers. I think it's a fine pairing and I am really enjoying what the 300B SET experience brings to the table in terms of musicality and emotional connection.
Still the De Capo, while supposedly an easy load due to its crossover-less design (only 1 cap on the tweeter with the mid-woofer directly coupled to the amp), is "only" rated at 92 db efficient, and based on the most recent Canadian NRC specs, that rating may be optimistic.
So, I am toying with the idea of trying a pair of more efficient, deliberately SET-friendly speakers in my rig, something that might also play lower and with greater dynamic swing than the De Capo's. Note that the De Capo's have served me well and I am very fond of them, but I can't help but wonder if my lovely Kit 1 would shine even better coupled to a VERY easy to drive speaker.
Devore and Audio Note are obvious options - the O/96 looks really tasty. Unfortunately, both of those choices are out of my budget, which I'm thinking maxes out (for real) at around $1500. I am willing to consider used equipment.
Tekton Lore 2.0: This is the speaker that Eric Alexander of Tekton has recommended when we've spoken on the phone, based upon my medium-small listening room and amp. I've read the epic "Lore vs. Zu" thread elsewhere in this forum, and clearly Tekton has its enthusiastic fans here. What I wonder is whether the Lore 2.0 has the refinement of the De Capo in terms of resolution, sweet high end and imaging. Audiogon'er Mikirob has pointed me to the many rave reviews of Tekton's speakers and I'm definitely interested.
I've corresponded with the Sonist folks (who are super nice) but their really high-efficiency, nearly-full-range floor stander is out of my budget.
Then there's the "vintage" route, going after some used JBL's or other high-efficiency "classics" from the 80's (or '70's). I am not inclined to go in this direction, but mention it because it's been suggested to me.
And then there's Omega. I spoke to Louis some time ago and he recommended his 7XRS hemp cone model. But I know all the raps on single driver designs and I'm cautious, although I would like to hear from any of you who own or have owned Omega's.
I'm in no rush to make a switch but I am very interested in your thoughts. Thanks, folks!
I know that some of what I want to discuss here has been dealt with in other threads, some of them quite old, but I wanted to see if any of you fine, knowledgable folks are willing to help update and consolidate some of this info in a more current thread.
I am currently running my new Audio Note Kit 1 300B SET amp with a pair of Reference 3A De Capo speakers. I think it's a fine pairing and I am really enjoying what the 300B SET experience brings to the table in terms of musicality and emotional connection.
Still the De Capo, while supposedly an easy load due to its crossover-less design (only 1 cap on the tweeter with the mid-woofer directly coupled to the amp), is "only" rated at 92 db efficient, and based on the most recent Canadian NRC specs, that rating may be optimistic.
So, I am toying with the idea of trying a pair of more efficient, deliberately SET-friendly speakers in my rig, something that might also play lower and with greater dynamic swing than the De Capo's. Note that the De Capo's have served me well and I am very fond of them, but I can't help but wonder if my lovely Kit 1 would shine even better coupled to a VERY easy to drive speaker.
Devore and Audio Note are obvious options - the O/96 looks really tasty. Unfortunately, both of those choices are out of my budget, which I'm thinking maxes out (for real) at around $1500. I am willing to consider used equipment.
Tekton Lore 2.0: This is the speaker that Eric Alexander of Tekton has recommended when we've spoken on the phone, based upon my medium-small listening room and amp. I've read the epic "Lore vs. Zu" thread elsewhere in this forum, and clearly Tekton has its enthusiastic fans here. What I wonder is whether the Lore 2.0 has the refinement of the De Capo in terms of resolution, sweet high end and imaging. Audiogon'er Mikirob has pointed me to the many rave reviews of Tekton's speakers and I'm definitely interested.
I've corresponded with the Sonist folks (who are super nice) but their really high-efficiency, nearly-full-range floor stander is out of my budget.
Then there's the "vintage" route, going after some used JBL's or other high-efficiency "classics" from the 80's (or '70's). I am not inclined to go in this direction, but mention it because it's been suggested to me.
And then there's Omega. I spoke to Louis some time ago and he recommended his 7XRS hemp cone model. But I know all the raps on single driver designs and I'm cautious, although I would like to hear from any of you who own or have owned Omega's.
I'm in no rush to make a switch but I am very interested in your thoughts. Thanks, folks!
Showing 50 responses by mapman
"Every type of speaker involves tradeoffs," That is true, especially with limited budget. For a SET amp in articular, if it were me, the thing worth trading off is low end extension, which is where the hardest work is required by far, exponentially so as the frequency decreases. Limiting/filtering low end extension as needed opens up many many possibilities. A smaller room will typically work in one's favor in that regard in that less work is required in smaller rooms. You can get the low end extension off just a few watts as well but you need larger drivers/speakers in general and of course high quality larger speakers will cost more. Tannoy is a line I would want to hear that might have some unique things to offer for the SET amp world. |
Reb, I would not discount Triangle as a line to consider, if you can find them around these days. I'd mainly just look for models that are 91db + efficient and do not do much below 50 hz or so. For anything with more low end extension than that, I would make sure the efficiency ratings are truly higher and reflect efficiency at lower frequencies. Beware of smaller speakers that boast higher efficeinecies. They will either be accurate and have less low end extension or have more low end extension but the efficiency specs not cover teh low frequencies, as is the suspected case with the DeCapos. |
Focal is another. Focal and Triangle are both French and all I have heard share some common sonic attributes. The right Focals or Triangles on a good SET amp would make a lot of lovely music. The French seem to have a knack for that kind of thing. Its a different sound than British or most any US I have heard for sure. Clean, crisp, detailed, nuanced, almost to a fault, which is where a nice tube amp might add just the right form of magic. |
Having done some investigation into Tannoy at various times over the years, I think it is safe to say that it is a fairly diverse line with products that may appeal to a wide variety of users and various models will work differently with most any amp including SET. So specific model will definitely matter a lot. |
"So I can't figure out how to sort through their offerings. " The same way one sorts through the wide range of offerings available on the market as a whole. I look for specs and measurements that meet my needs and a lot of positive reviews. There is more end user information available for products like these sold on Amazon and other sources not known as "high end" per se than for more esoteric products that get more focus here. Open markets are our friends. You just have to focus on sorting therough the noise and focusing on the facts ie specs and a variety of personal experiences from pure music lovers, if not also audiophiles per-se. |
My take on Wavetouch is that they are small for the price but seemingly well made and with a different take on directionality and fighting room acoustics. Bass not too extended and moderate efficiency as I recall so a reasonable match for a SET I would say. I have corresponded with at least one Agoner who bought a pair and had nothing but good things to say about them. |
Reb, I understand where you are coming from in terms of sorting through the options. The thing is there are so many good products out there but usually only a few that work best best in each unique case. Specs, measurements and lots of end user reviews from others with similar needs are ones best friend usually to help sort through it all. |
REb, I would take advantage of going back and spending some time with Sebrof's or any other SET based system you might have access to that can serve as a reference. Hearing and recognizing a reference standard is really the only way to know what is possible or what one might be missing. In teh end, on a budget, with a SET, I think it will mostly boil down to how much low end extension is needed. That's often the case but even more so when watts are few and precious. |
Atmasphere, I think you are assuming that the speaker is full or near full range with your numbers. Smaller speakers with less low end extension MUST require less power to achieve a certain level, all else the same. The lower the frequencies attempted, the more power is needed, all else held constant. I think that is basic physics. So I think my argument is sound that one way to coax more out of a few good watts is to defer on or even filter out the lowest frequencies if needed one way or another at some point. That allows your watts to go further. The sacrifice is the lowest octave or so to some extent but the fact is that may not matter much for most recordings, especially in a smaller room. But you are correct that the only way to get flat response full range sound out of a few watts is very high efficiency speakers. I have only heard it achieved well with very expensive and very large horns, along the lines of Avantgarde or similar custom horns. |
My best advice is to always make sure the technical indicators (specs measurements and any other factual technical inforamtion taht might be had via reviews, articles, etc.) line up first. Those are the best FACTS one has to work with towards the goal of OPTIMAL PERFORMANCE. Optimal Performance is always a good thing but alone not assurance of what will be perceived as good sound. For example an all tube system and an all SS system might both be top notch performers together on paper and as measured, but each will still have their own personal preference for whatever reason. PErsonal preferences are subjective judgements that has no assurance of translating to another whereas techical facts to the extent discernable to help assure optimal performance does. |
"I would put it that deep bass extension, efficiency, and compactness of cabinet size trade off against one another in the design of a speaker. Sacrificing deep bass extension and/or making the cabinet larger (not smaller) will work in the direction of enabling the speaker to have greater efficiency." That's a good way to put it. |
I recall the Tekton owner guy indicating a preference for SS amps with his speakers. Don't recall why. Always check those impedance curves, especially at the low end to help determine just how much more of a challenge more bass extension might be. One good strategy to help manage risk might be to only go with products that have been thoroughly and reliably measured by an independant source, like Stereophile. My Dynaudio monitors go down into teh 40s as well and do bass and dynamics quite well in a smaller room. My smaller Triangles do not and bass and dynamics is where they first fall short, though with my current placement near the floor for re-inforcement with slight upward tilt on isolating stands, the bass levels are just right now in a slightly larger and livelier room. You just never know until you try things sometimes. |
No doubt a lot of critical listeners seem to like Tekton. Same can be said about many products. We all hear differnetly, so there is no assurance what sounds good to one will sound good to another. Its always a gamble to a certain extent but hopefully more of a highly educated guess that has a good chance of working out with due diligence. |
its a good problem to have to choose through many good options. The bad news is they are all different. The good news is that there are many ways to tweak sound produced by a speaker and that they are all good options. If the specs, measurements, and reviews all line up positively for the case at hand, then that is about all one can hope for in lieu of an actual audition. |
It's pretty well documented that sets do not measure well when it comes to distortion levels compared to other amp topologies. Yet many seem to find the sound uniquely appealing. So yes not an obvious thing it would seem. The fact that no two amp speaker combos sound exactly the same is a pretty good indicator that distortion is prevalent in various forms with most any technology to some extent. The proof in the end is the listening. Nothing is perfect. |
In recent years, since starting my focus on revamping my setup back around 2008, I've found Enjoy The Music to be the best and most reliable resources available to me for finding high value excellent performing products that one might not be aware of otherwise. I have a high degree of trust in what they say about recommended products. |
I do not know much about the SET amps specs, but SETs are known for their midrange magic mainly. Since most music occurs in the midrange, excellence there can go a long way if nothing too bad is happening elsewhere. Limited bandwidth in particular is one thing that I believe would work in favor of a SET amp since magic is in the midrange goes a long way. |
Taking it one step further, limited bandwidth would benefit SET sound by rolling off both the lowest and highest frequencies perhaps. The power can go much further with some low end roll off, and not much happens in music at the higher frequencies that we are able to hear typically when younger but likely not able to hear at all anyhow as our ears get older. |
Reb, Here you go. Home Grown Hi eff speakers for SET Very cool homegrown speakers and interesting summary by the owner. Custom horns along these lines are teh best I have heard off SET and I would agree the dynamics are off teh chart with speakers like these balanced out just right. Its a delicate balance though. I have not heard any without some extra edge as a result which is something some may like and others not so much. |
How about These if any are still around in good operating condition. Wouldn't cost much most likely. I never cared for them off the common SS Japanese amps and receivers they were typically used with back in their day, but I would liketo hear them off a SET amp. |
"Time to retire the SET limitation cliches." Charles, c'mon get real. Are you saying SETs do not have limitations? Fact is they are the MOST limited of amp designs. One has to adapt in other places to make them work well. Not to say that they cannot work well when mated with the right gear, but it is a disservice to suggest a SET amp with just a few watts does not have limitations. Its not a cliche but a fact that just s few watts IS A LIMITATION. Not an insurmountable one, nor one that might not well be outweighed by other benefits in some cases, but a limitation nonetheless. One will have to jump through some very special hoops for best results, as Rebbi has recently determined as well. We all love what we love but let's just keep it real. :^) |
"We couldn't be more clear in stating that SETs require appropriate speaker matching" That's keeping it real. There will be more limitations with more speakers than otherwise. As long as people realize this, then they should be fine. Nothing wrong with building a system around an amp if that is what floats ones boat but keeping it real means knowing this will be the case with a SET more so than with most anything else. For example I thought it inevitable that Reb would eventually choose to dump the Decapos as a result of moving to SET, though I hoped I was wrong. There was false hope that somehow the combo would work out when on paper it seemed apparent to many that that would not be the case. Now changing speakers to optimize for use with an amp is not not the end of the world, just another choice that we all make all the time, but the fact is the choice of speakers that will perform optimally with a set is much more limited than otherwise. Most speakers WILL NOT perform optimally with a SET amp, certainly less so than otherwise. Nothing will change that fact. The good news is that it is probably not any harder to choose the right speakers for a SET for optimal performance than any other kind of amp. The bad news is that one will find their choices more limited. Also those choices will likely tend to be physically larger than otherwise, which might not work for everyone, and also might be quite expensive in the case of the best and largest choices. Different strokes for different folks. Let's all just be real about the obstacles one is likely to face. Sugar coatings taste good at first but tend to wear off over time. |
Reb, I've done some downsizing and will be putting some items up for sale shortly. One item I am planning to part with are my STAX electret "ear speakers". These are entry level STAX and not expensive and tehy always tend to shine in particular with tubes upstream. I;ve always thought these would do some very nice things with a SET amp as a source but that won't be happening with me anytime soon. They connect to an amp like speakers. LEt me know if interested. I would like to find these a new home where they might get more use. |
Hi Reb. I've downsized my second system to a 60 watt/ch Class D integrated (Bel Canto C5i) so if any new speakers on my horizon, tehy may well need to be more efficient as well. So far I'm liking the combo with the OHM 100s. Eventually I will try with my Triangles and Dynaudios just for fun. The DeCapos would be a nice upgrade over my Triangles off my main rig still, but they are holding their own for now plus my audio budget is shot. I am looking to downsize and sell not buy these days. In addition to the STAX, I am also plannign to sell my TAD Hibachi monoblocks and mhdt Paradisea tube DAC. I am a bit of a Klutsz so surely I would be the one to drop the Frankensteins. Charles would surely never forgive me for that one. |
Hifis are like baseball teams. Ideally, you want 9 40 home run power hitters in teh lineup. That's optimal perforamnce. But realistically you will have some poor hitters and some good hitters with decent averages and on base % but not power hitters. They are good baseball players as well, many hall of famers. So teh reality of things is that we often live quite happily with significant compromise compared to the ideal. But the ideal is still best. Oh, and some decent pitching and fielding does not hurt either. |
Zu Essence sounded very thin and lifeless at moderate volumes off a SET with rock music that requires some meat on teh bones to sound good IMHO when I heard them. Just one audition but by Zu experts who admitted the amp used was underpowered for that kind of music. They were demoing acoustic jazz and such solely until I asked for something more challenging. |
"I don't understand the singling out of SETs as if nothing else mandates compatibility considerations." As Atmasphere likes to point out, SETs along with many tube amps like his OTLs operate under a different paradigm than most gear in today's world. In addition, SETs have the additional disadvantage of delivering just a few precious watts. So its not an issue unique to SETs, just perhaps of greater magnitude in general than in most cases. For top notch performance in all common cases a home audio enthusiast might encounter, you have to find speakers that are both efficient and an easy load to drive and the choices may be limited. So its not a problem that is not solvable, just one in which there are more ways to go wrong and perhaps also of greater magnitude or consequence when they do. Again, if listening mostly at low to moderate volumes, it may not be much of an issue at all but that does not address the needs of all home audio enthusiasts. For example, in my case, it might work for a second system but not likely for my main system in that I could neither afford nor fit any of the speakers I have heard run off a SET that I considered to not have limitations that would matter to me. Of course as always YMMV. Just beware of teh limitations in any case. They are always there. |
Tubegroover, I'm with you on teh pros and cons of teh Quads. They were one of my main references when undergoing changes in my gear in recent years. Macrodynamics being the main limitation. My other reference is all manner of live performances. I go to and soak in as many as I can. Still, I ended up going a certain way to achieve my reference sound. Interestingly each "walks that lonesome valley" in their own way despite often having similar goals and references. Tubes have helped me along teh way but I am still of teh opinion that they are optional in that quest and I am still seeking to minimize my dependencies and finding I am able to make progress in that direction. My philosophy is to attempt to take advantage of modern technical advances and innovations. Digital and related technologies have made great strides in recent years. I am finding I can ride that wave a lot further these days then I was able to even just a couple years ago, when I turned more to tubes to help close the gap. |
REbbi, One other thing I can recommend taht might help in any case is go with something where drivers can be/are located closer to teh floor perhaps with slight upward tilt for treble balance at your listening position. That will help get more bass out which is where the challenge will be. To accomplish this I would put the speakers on the floor but on a pair of Isoacoustic pro monitor stands. There are three different sizes for different size monitors to choose from. These will help to keep the bass clean along with the extra floor reinforcement. This was the magic sauce to get my little Triangles to finally perform optimally in my wife's acoustically challenged 12X12 sunroom with lots of windows and a cathedral ceiling. Similarly I put Auralex Subdude isolation platforms under my bottom ported OHM 100s to achieve similar results with those. |
If one widely elects to preserve their ears, its a good thing to in general not go louder than low 80s db volume. So that is not a bad limitation in practice necessarily ie one that is good for ones health. But the flip side is that real music can be much louder than that and when the goal is to reproduce reality higher volumes are often required. This is part of the performance aspect of gear that I always talk about. Performance enables good sound but is not necessarily the same thing. Unfortunately for me, I occasionally like to go louder when called for. Not often but on occasion. So its a limitation I am not able to live with currently. Maybe someday as I continue to get older and mellower. :^) |
One way to be happy with lower volume levels at home after experiencing what can occur live with an orchestra is to only sit further back in the cheaper seats. or listen to outdoor live concerts only. Not as hard to reproduce those SPL levels experienced at home. Its all a matter of expectations really. I went to see John Fogerty live on Monday. It was a fantastic show, great tunes, fantastic musicians, lots of energy, good sound, and loud loud loud. But sound quality was good with distortion well under control. When I go to these things I am always assessing "can I attempt to reproduce this at home" and I leave feeling good about that. In my case, with only modest efficiency full range speakers, my amps are my power hitters needed to carry the team. In the case of a SET, it would need to be very high efficiency speakers based on what I have heard to date. |
here's another radical thought. A lot of pro gear ie monitors are high efficiency out of necessity and tend to offer good sound quality value/$$. Are there any very high quality pro monitors in the price range worth consideration? Tannoy for example is one vendor who does both home and pro speakers/monitors. JBL another. |
FWIW, the best and least compromised sound I have actually heard with affordable speakers run off a low power tube amp was...drum roll Audio Note (do not know the exact model or cost but they start out in Reb's price range I believe and I believe are typically made for corner placement for best results, which I think has to be a big help with moderate sized speakers off just a few watts. And they sell kits as well. |