I'd be curious if McIntosh, accuphase,etc produced a Class D amp how it would compare to their normal line
High End Amp Price Collapse musings
If Class D amplification becomes accepted by audiophiles there should be a glut of high end amps (Krell, Levinson, Pass etc) becoming available on the used market at prices a fraction of what they are now.
Think CRT TV when the flat panels began emerging.I think Ill hold off on a new/used amp purchase for a little while. Maybe I will bet a Boulder.
Has any one else considered this?
167 responses Add your response
@bcgator I think we in the lunatic minority are much more prevalent in this thread than has been in the past. Rowland, Cary, ATI to name just a few high end companies seem to be developing (at least some) of their amps using D Class modules. They wouldn't be doing that if Class D wasn't good. Takes a while to break a stigma but I think it's getting there. |
Jet Hewtech PE SHIELDED Hirakawa-FP 3 by 16gauge AWG from Japan. White vinyl jacket with silver terminations and what looks like a ferrite magnet near inlet IEC. My dealer gave it to me to use with my Krell Vanguard Integrated but I never tried it till a couple days ago. They used to come with the High End Sony Plasma tv's...he said it was a good power cord (understatement). Anyway, it outperforms my MIT Oracle ACII Zcord ($4500), MIT Magnum ACII Z cord ($2300) Audioquest NRG 5 ($800)and Transparent Powerlink MM2 ($2100)!!! By outperform I mean it is practically perfect in every way so that it allows complete transparency, maximum dynamics, holographic imaging, natural tone with an organic sense of texture that creates 3D roundedness like great tube gear:). Simply astonishing. |
And yet another thread about how Class D will never sound as good as Class A/AB amps, with a few people who’ve gone out on a limb and tried Class D with great success representing the lunatic minority (I happen to be among the lunatic minority, with my Class D powered on as I type this and my Audio Research tube amp collecting dust)... I’m surprised you guys haven’t tired of this subject yet - the threads are all alike, they never progress, they never advance. Maybe it’s time for a thread about how there’s no point in trying any new restaurants, because nothing will ever create as much emotion and connection as a trip to the Golden Corral buffet? |
Much has been said about Class D sound quality vs. other amps that I cannot add to that discussion. However, I want to point out that even if Class D amps were proven best of the amps, this has nothing to do with pricing. Capitalism 101: Price on value, not parts. Separate the price and cost as much as you can. So assuming I made the worlds best amps, and they were class D I'd still sell them for $120k each monoblock. :) Maybe I'd make them out of milled platinum ingots for "minimum resonance" or something. The rise, or fall of any particular technology is not going to depress the high end pricing at all. Best, E |
@mitch2 I meant the more recent incarnations of Class D - in my post I mentioned that I think they have come a long ways in past few years, especially with the NAD I am now using. On another subject I was recently reading an article about Bob Carver and the Stereophile amp challenge. He was able to exactly reproduce the sound of $7,000.00+ tube amplifiers in a modified $700.00 SS amp without knowing the amp he was cloning - it was a pair Conrad-Johnson Premier Twelves (I am simplifying things - google as it's a good read). I picked up one of his production models recently (M-1.0t) and have yet to listen to it (I have low expectations...but) |
Clayton M300, 300/600 wpc into 8/4 ohms in Class A. Yes, they get hot but they have high/low bias, which helps. I quit sweating the small stuff, like warm-up time because it is all relative, since they sound so good from the time I turn them on...they just sound better after 30 minutes. Others in the rotation were Lamm M1.2 Reference, the NC1200 Atsahs, and a McCormack DNA-2 LAE designed by David Reich, with full upgrades by Steve McCormack at SMc Audio in 2014. I still own the DNA-2 and the Claytons. |
It seems that the people critical of Class D amps haven’t given them a fair shake/listenI can only speak to my specific experiences, as can any of us. However, as I have posted previously, I did give the Acoustic Imagery Atsah, Ncore, NC1200 monoblock amplifiers a fair shake, since I purchased them, owned them, played them in my system for over a year, and during that time period compared them head-to-head with three other really good amps, two of which I still own. It was amplifier roulette for awhile and I surprisingly learned that, sort of like Dorothy, I had actually started with my ideal amplifier several years earlier but just didn’t realize it. Since I had sold those original amps (to a buyer who enjoys them to this day) I was fortunate to find another pair and even more fortunate that Wilson Shen with Clayton Audio was still around to fully upgrade them so they sound awesome. Any of us who post here are speaking to our own experiences, systems, rooms, biases, etc., which is why anybody trying to find universal truth on these forums will eventually be disappointed. |
Uberwaltz, I have an iPad with current iOS and BlueSound app. The Vault will update itself periodically as needed. I have a Signal Cable Digital Reference power cord with Furutech C7 termination on its way...what the Hell, figure it can't help! I also run my Vanguard and Vault through a Transparent ISO DUO power outlet. |
@jimman2 Quite amusing as I have not owned a piece of vinyl in over 15 years but my 16 year old daughter loves her vinyl and has paid some (imho) exorbitant prices for some of them, so yes I would agree that Vinyl is hot right now. And now I am even possibly moving away from a cd spinner with the purchase of a bluesound vault 2 horses for courses |
OK a quite a few of us here think that Class D may have already surpassed Class A/B in at least a few instances. It seems that the people critical of Class D amps haven't given them a fair shake/listen (and people please stop referring to them as 'digital amps' as they are not in any way way such). D class has come a long ways in the past 5 years. I liked some characteristics of D Class back then - great high frequency reproduction/detail but I felt a lack of imaging and sound-stage. That has changed with my NAD M22. Not fair to criticize it (Class D) unless you've recently checked it out (which I doubt many of its critics have). As far as vinyl - I have a small record shop within an antique/collectibles shop I own in S. Jersey and I am doing more than quite well selling vinyl to both Millennials and Baby Boomers. Maybe it lasts, maybe not but vinyl is HOT right now and has been for the 3 years I've been doing this. My shop is small and quite diversified and we do well but vinyl is our biggest draw. I specialize in Classic 60s-80s rock in VG+ or better condition and it's cool to see the following we have now in less than six months in business. |
With so many Class D amps and price points it's not possible so say Class D is not there yet, or I tried and it is not good enough yet etc... All that can really be said is " I tried one or two and that particular amp was not as good as my...." We really cannot paint across the whole Class D universe with a broad brush. It is reasonable you like this or that amp better. I like my digital amp better then many of Tube and Class A amps I have owned, but I cannot say it bests all amps in the amp universe. |
Ok, ok, ok...so I hooked up my upgraded Krell Vanguard and compared to the BlueSound Powernode 2 it sounds....drumroll please.....more weighty, organic and smoother with increased presence. I can also turn it up louder and the it doesn't get harsh. That said, I still think that Class D has great potential. |
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Once Class D is close enough in quality even some of the deep pocket Krell, Pass etc guys will switch. Once that happens they will sell thier existing gear which will gradually bring the value of that existing gear down giving not so deep pockets the chance to own true high end as it exists today." And why exactly is this going to happen if Class D isn't demosntarbly better? |
The thing about many of those big, heavy older Class A amps is that they were made so good. Think about it. Many people still have 1960’s and 70's McIntoshes at the heart of their system. Which of the McIntoshes were Class A? Must have been a secret series they released. The Macs of the 60's were just slightly above class B, nowhere near in range of class A bias. I'm also not impressed with the build quality of the big class A's. I remembered a friend who bought some of the Levinson 25W heavy bias class A amps (got a partial "HQD" system then found he didn't much like it. Put the amps in storage for about 10yrs). Got them out later... oops the filter caps had gone bad. Seriously, old Japanese 70's receivers have sat for that long and powered right up. |
kalali269 posts02-02-2017 11:06am People going for cheaper, lighter, portability and convenience may not necessarily suggest that huge and heavy Class A or AB amps, vinyl and CDs are dead. Folks using smartphones as their cameras do not suggest that quality compacts and DSLRs will go extinct, or the price of the gear will come down. You may be able to purchase the Pass XA60.8 at "fire sale" prices in perhaps 50 years from now when it's obsolete and no longer a desirable item. |
"Some of you miss the point. The point is simple. As Class D advances it will eat into the high end class A market. We have seen this already happening to a small degree. Some people on this thread indicate they already switched. Once Class D is close enough in quality even some of the deep pocket Krell, Pass etc guys will switch. Once that happens they will sell thier existing gear which will gradually bring the value of that existing gear down giving not so deep pockets the chance to own true high end as it exists today." I think what you forgot to factor into this is if Class-D reaches or surpasses Class-A or A/B, then the prices for Class-D will also reach or surpass Class-A or A/B. Some people may sell, but I don't expect to see pennies on the dollar. If so, I'll be the first one there to grab a pair of XA-160's! |
Really interesting stuff here My two cents Just replaced two behemoth Emotiva amps ( a 5channel and a 2 channel) in the ht rig with a tiny little Nuforce mca-20. Now the tanks were rated at 5x200w and 2x300w and the Nuforce "just" 8x150w. I am pleasantly surprised to say I am totally blown away...literally! The Nuforce puts on quite a show and combined with my Rel Stentor sub (more class D) we are rocking the cabinets with a good action movie. Yes I know the Emotivas are not top flight stuff to begin with but still. Now my stereo rig comprises of BAT VK600SE amp, 2x300w weighing in at 120lb. Just bought a Red Dragon s500 to compare, basically i am going to sit it right next to the BAT and swap cables and see what I think This will be interesting....... |
I only meant that when a consumer technology is going thru its vibrant growth phase, the accelerated pace of development and innovation is accompanied with accelerated depreciation curves as consumers want to ride the front of the wave. Ii really don't care how anyone spends their money, and I've spent my share chasing the edge. |
I'm 55, so I've had a front row seat to the birth of high end audio and it's many transformations. Old tech is not necessarily better or worse than any other tech, rather, it's performance is dependent on it's execution. Once in awhile we are given a glimpse of what is possible. Digital amplification can and will supplant old technology because it can eliminate the inherent flaws in it's design. Limitations can be removed by simplifying the reproduction chain, adding full digital control of the source material without damaging the signal! Preamplification can be reduced to software...that's absolutely inspired and purist in design. The future is here and the potential is boundless...conventional tech is comparable to the Victrola! |
I'd like to mention too that I use Class D amplification in my vehicle system (Alpine) and the sound is far superior to that of the McIntosh amplifier I used about ten years ago. I use it with an Alpine sound processor, 2 pairs of component speakers (Diamond Hex and Focal) and I get a lot of "wow"'s when people hear my system, which is relatively inexpensive. I admit the Alpine sound processor makes a big difference and I didn't have it my system with my Mac. The McIntosh was loud and clear but had nowhere near the detail and clarity of the Alpine. |
dave b - I noticed that Bluesound is a sister company of NAD. I put the Auralic Vega in my system with the NAD M22 yesterday- the sound I'm hearing is quite alarming (in a good way). The Auralic needs another 80 hours of break in to boot. Quietest amp I've ever had too. Other than the D-Class amps and the Adcom I mentioned in my previous posts I also had used a very well regarded ATI Class A amp. It got mostly rave ratings except in the portability category (86 pounds!). I recently visited their page and guess what - they are now making and lauding Class D amplification. |
<randyhat> I have been using an Audio Research 150.2 amp for a number of years, working with an Audiio Research LS-25 Mk II, Esoteric K-01 player, and driving Focal Alto Utopia speakers. The 150.2 is based on the old Tripath Class D module, but with other elements designed by AR and built to traditional AR build quality. I play almost 100% classical CD and SACD, and the sound I hear from this setup is excellent to my ears. Specifically, I do not hear the harshness that many mention as coming out of Class D. What I feel that I am hearing is a very clear version of the program material--with all the strengths of well recorded and mastered discs and all the faults of poorly recorded or mastered ones. I have heard the equivalent setup using a Levinson in place of the 150.2 and did not find it significantly better, for my taste. When Tripath went out of business a while back, AR had to move to their own proprietary Class D technology to make amps like the D225 and D450. I think these are now discontinued with no SS replacement from AR. My theory on this latter development is that the new owners of AR are rationalizing their various brands, with AR becoming all-tube gear and McIntosh handling the SS amps they want to sell. |
So my BlueSound Powenode 2 ($799) and Vault 2 ($1299) won't hold there value? As if we buy for value...what are we Amish? Anyway, based on that premise $2K worth of stuff declines 75% lets say so we are left with $500 worth of gear. My Krell Cipher cost $12K and the highest resale I found was $4500 if mint with all original packaging and less than 2 years old. Most of the big name gear I have sold over the years wound up in the same ball park. Value? Really? High end audio? The value comes from the cost to performance ratio only I'm afraid....no one day trades in audio gear. |
I know some are trying to figure out a way to eliminate the power transformer them even traditional transistor amps will be light. |
All things digital carry a sense of instant obsolescence once the next version is announced. I wouldn't buy a digital amp because I think it would be a poor boat anchor (too light) in a few years. There are many old "analog" amps, speakers, and tonearm I'd love to have, but any old digital gizmo falls into the Atari, Windows 2000, iPhone4 graveyard. Maybe it's an unfair association with computer products, or an unfair label of "digital" but DAC's have the same arc of obsolescence. Analog dies a slower death in the used market. |
Look, I was a curmudgeon myself....as i said, I owned the Class A and AB $20K amps and preamps and the Wilson speakers and the Dyn C4's and the B&W 802D2's etc...! What I am hearing coming out of a $799 BlueSound integrated and Vault 2 feeding my Totem Forest Signatures is crazy good by any measure. In fact, it effortlessly trounces anything I've owned before....maddening actually! 3lb integrated and 40lb speakers absolutely melt my heart and entrance me like nothing I've heard anywhere...period. |
somebody commented on Class B amps as having a place in home audio ???? where ??? do you understand Class B topology ?? not in my house ! As for Class D, I've heard the good, bad and ugly. The best I've heard to date is the Rogue Medusa (Hybrid Class D) , actually quite musical driving a pair of Martin Logan Spire's |
To the OP: For many of us, Audiogon has been making high-end available at affordable prices since their beginning. The bargains you are looking for are already here. My wife and I are a retired middle-class couple living on Social Security, and although we did modestly well when we both were working, we could NEVER have afforded the equipment we own today had we bought it new. Only our main system full-range speakers were purchased locally from an audiophile friend who gave us a very generous deal on them when he upgraded. All the other components in our four stereo systems were purchased on Audiogon, and we are deeply grateful to Audiogon and every seller and buyer we dealt with for making it possible. What if you buy something and want to try something else? Re-sell it on Audiogon. You won't lose much money, and you'll have learned a lot from your choices. Don't wait. Do your research and treat yourself to a truly high-end system now! |
A few years ago Audio Research released a number of Class D amps. I only listened to a couple of models very briefly so I don't have any personal experience but I recall they got pretty good reviews. It seemed that if an established and quality company was making a move in this direction it warranted serious attention. I was not in the market for a new amp at the time but I did follow vicariously their class D product line and thought this might be something I would be interested in down the road a bit. Apparently they have since abandoned this technology and have concentrated their focus entirely on tubes. I can only assume there was not a large enough market for these digital amps. Anyone have any experience with any of these amps or know more about why they dropped them from their product line? |
I didn't see any mention of the relatively new NAD M22 amp (using a variation Hypex NC400 NCore modules). It's had some favorable reviews even compared to amps costing 3x as much. Any experience here? I had a Bel Canto EVO up til about 5 years ago - I preferred it in my system to my other class A and A/B amps but I never had a $10,000 amp in my system of A or A/B. I recently bought the NAD M22 and am in process of putting everything together but in a short listen I preferred it to my Adcom GFA555II (the one designed by Nelson Pass), which I thought was excellent. I bought the NAD here second hand so it is broken in. I'm picking up an Auralic Vega today and am excited to hear the combination of it, my NAD amp, Rougue (tube) preamp, and some digital files. |
