Help. System sounds thin and bright or harsh

@raysmtb1 

I don't know who "runs the Internet" but there are indeed fluctuations in the quality of the music I get out of my streamer depending on day and time

@audioguy85 

But, but, what if buying new and different stuff doesn't fix anything?

ah! Im a luddite (LOL) I have no internet interface with the system whatsoever. Silly, cuz I need to get into down loading and maybe streaming but want to do it right and there are SO many paths to follow.  Need to research.

But I now feel the amp is my current problem. left it on all day while powering down the rest of the components. Sound was not very good. Its a bummer cause the amp is massively heavy making for a bitch of a job to send off to the maker for repairs. Oh well,

I'm going to say the Harbeths are just not cutting it. Small two way speakers seldom do (unless you like a lean sound). You need a bigger 3 way to get the warm midrange you are looking for. 

Nonsense. I have the 30.2xd's and the warm midrange was the #1 reason why I got them. They are not lean. They fill the room which is wide open plan.

I'm driving mine with 35wpc Raven Audio Osprey.

I had a similar problem in my reference system.  I had a gain mismatch between my amp and preamp.  I had to turn the gain way down on my Supratek preamp feeding my Coda 16 amp.  Viola, problem solved.

Given the large volume of your overall room, I think subs could be helpful. But also, have you tested to make sure that the roofers were not wired out of phase on your speakers? Since the problem occurred in your old room, and this room, it was carried over with the system. there is a test you can do with a 9 V battery which you hook up to the speaker leads, and feel which way the woofer moves, inward or outward. It should be the same on both speakers if you wire at the same way. You might need to research this test. 

@cymivka I have not reread everything, so I am going from memory if I write something already mentioned.  

First, try another pair of speakers before hauling your amp off for repairs.  From what I have read pass gear is fairly bulletproof.  We're not talking testing for sonic nuisances here, were testing if something is big time wrong and your Harbeths or amp are not functioning properly.

I would try changing the speaker connections on one of the speakers only, so the negative black speaker wire is attached to the red positive connector on the speaker.  This will tell you if a whole speaker was wired out of phase.

Last, I would try @peter_s post to verify that individual drivers within a speaker have not been hooked up out of phase.  As he mentions, definitely research the test first to make sure you don't accidentally mess anything up with the battery.  I have done it but only on lesser cost speakers.

Have you ever gotten good bass from the Harbeths? The specs says they only dip down to about 50hz so not much deep bass will show up. I know it’s a completely different animal but I’m running Martin Logan Impresions with a Parasound A31 and its a beautiful relationship. Very good balance in all octaves and never harsh. Solving your issue through a forum is nearly impossible because whatever scientific recommendation given doesn’t change your ears. Until now you’ve done it all right. I haven’t read all the responses but by now you may have figured out your next move is to keep adjusting speaker placement, properly treat your space, and maybe try other cables. I’ve found cardas to be naturally bright (for my ears in my system) Happy listening.

@ejspain2020 The OP didn't complain about not getting deep bass his issue is "System sounds thin and bright or harsh".

The 50Hz spec is correct but that doesn't account for the room. As an example the 'heartbeat' in Breathe sounds remarkably good from a 50Hz midrange driver - even my local dealer was surprised - (I brought a 1979 MOFI issue in as one of my test records) 

If you want REALLY full, deep bass with the 30.1 / 30.2 you'd need subs as others have mentioned. I use 2 REL T/9x, but turning them off doesn't make my system sound bright/harsh nor does it sound like they are suddenly lacking good bass.

Adding 2 RELs was way less than going up to the 40.2's, which was my calculus but most people buy Harbeth's for it's mid-range performance and their overall range is where most of the music is, depending on what kind of music you listen to.

E.g. an open E on a bass guitar is 41Hz 

@macg19 great points. Hope he gets it figured out. Completely understand how this can be frustrating. I'm about to go down the rabbit whole of adding a new processor so hopefully I don't lose more hair integrating...I'm already bald😉

UPDATE

Thanks all. As i mentioned, looks like it IS the Pass Labs amp.  Powered down all components overnight...turned it on the next morning things were very much improved. THEN, next day, turned everything off EXCEPT for the Pass and things were still way off the next day. Am going to trade out the Pass amp (which Ive had for almost 10 years) for digital mono blocks just to confirm this. Then get the Pass to Reno HIFI or wherever is suggested for an overhaul.  Also thinking if the Pass needs some capacitors replaced it couldnt hurt to send the Parasound jc2 in for a good check up at the same time.  

Silver lining:  In moving the speakers and listening position all around the room in chasing down the sound gremlin (as many suggested) I think I have a perfect starting point for speaker placement once all the gear is up to spec.  The speakers ended up closer to the rear wall and a tad further away from sidewalls with fairly aggressive toe-in. Sounded a lot like I remembered on favorite recordings after the total power down test.

A pair of subs and new front end are still on the wish list.

Some hopeful news...glad you didn't throw the baby out with the bath water:)

@ejspain2020 good luck with your project! 

@cymivka 

You figured it out yourself! That's some good sleuthing on your part. As someone who has worked in customer service and support for many years I have found that my customers often figure the problem out themselves while we're on the phone. I somehow help them by just being available to bounce ideas off of and go over plausible causes.

@cymivka

Somehow I sound like the contrarian here, but I don’t wish to. I was just wondering if you don’t happen to have an old receiver or such that you can put in your system just to verify your findings that the amp is to blame?  I think that is the simplest way to figure things out.

I am sure you are right, but I would certainly want to verify my findings in a more solid way before spending $1,000s for amps that may not match the Pass and more for sending it in if by chance that it is not the culprit.

Now if you have the itch for new amps, full steam ahead.

Another update  and reversal.  Spoke with Mark at Reno HIFI where the Pass amp came from (x250.5) After telling me that the amp is likely not the culprit and describing what I SHOULD hear if something in the amp was failing. I finally hooked up the balanced outs from the Modwright/Oppo directly to the amp using the variable output for volume control. (many here had suggested that, Im just a slow study)  Much better, smoother but kind of laid back lacking a little in dynamics.

Then, per Mark, pulled out the stock power chord to the amp and disconnected amp from the power conditioner via after market chord and used stock chord from wall straight into amp. Better still, Parasound JC2 is now out of the mix...power conditioner still handles modified disc player.  Gonna pursue future upgrades from this particular set up.  Front end first, I think.  Still wondering if a better preamp might bring more to the party???  

"A pair of subs"

they won't make the sound warmer. It's going to be surgical to sync them up with the Harbeths

Unfortunately a better preamp will help, larger speakers, and swapping the amp. It just sounds each will make a pretty big difference, but one itself is unlikely to make the full jump you want. 
 

If you come to that conclusion as well. Typically it is best to start by choosing speakers first. They are the most important component of a compatible system (with well chosen equal level components). As true as this is, I always have valued my preamp most and would get this right (and the very best I could afford) and then  carry it over more than one system upgrade. 
 

I think I need to try a different pre amp the ooomph has gone away. Not as bright and brittle but less weight.  

My preamp has been the thing I loved the most… still is, my Audio Research Reference 6SE… the heart of my system. 👍

I have Parasound a21+, Parasound P6, and Parasound Jc3 jr. I wouldn't describe my system bright. Neutral would be a better description. 

When I eventually go separates ARC is top of the list. 

I have 0 to contribute but I like this thread for my learning. It's weird that you have these awesome components and experience these issues. I would say synergy if I was as smart and knowledgeable as ghdprentice.

I hope it will work out for you without throwing more money at it.

Do this just for grins to see if it’s a room treatment issue. Drag some mattresses from adjacent rooms into that room and place them against the wall and see if that makes a difference. I’m not suggesting this as a cure but to determine if it’s the room itself that is the issue. It may or may not be a big factor in what we’re talking about.

Andrew Jones tells a story about doing this at an audio show where they were stuck in hotel rooms that had terrible acoustics to do their demos. He said that they were voted the best sounding room in the show. They just asked room service for extra mattresses and placed them around, experimented and their end result apparently was quite amazing.

Not a permanent fix in any way but will certainly tell you something important.

I fully intend to use room treatments. already using cloth at first reflection points on side walls.  Used dedicated treatments before to try and tame Harbeth slh5's with boomy bass in my old listening room.  (ended up way overdamped, got rid of all the devices to start over) I feel that I should be able to get to a decent basis point with the overall sound before buying pricey treatment options that, in my mind, should be a means of fine tuning the sound.(keep it minimal) It was my experience that room treatments did NOT have instant or dramatic impact on the overall sound. This new room could prove totally different on that score, who knows.

Meantime, think I need to try a different pre-amp and send the JC2 out for a check up and possible service. Modwright/Oppo balanced outs straight into Pass Labs X250.5 amp sounds smoother than before but not robust enough, hitting variable volume levels in the upper 50's to mid 60's out of 100 and there's too much missing.

There's been lots of talk about using a pair of subs with the 30.1's. I am open to the idea but wonder since the room is wide open behind the listening position that I might get away with 40.2's and avoid trying to sync subs.  (did not like my SLH5's) Common sense tells me that's not likely.  Loft is 13' 2" wide with side walls extending 11 feet before opening up to a very distant upstairs back wall. I sit about 9 feet back from the front wall or where the speakers are. Ceiling is vaulted 10 to 11 feet high.  I feel the big Harbeths would be too weighty in that set up but certainly would warm things up. One can dream.   

re room treatments: unless you are in a glass bubble, your system should have the tone and characteristics (such as warmth) you expect without room treatment. 

Sell the Harbeths. There is nothing wrong with your upstream gear, the problem is the Harbeths sound like studio monitors. Studio monitors are not “warm.” 

@cymivka i don’t think adding subs are the answer to this problem. Sound like you may have a connection problem or an amp problem. But “ harsh” and “bright” aren’t fixed by subs. You’ll get harsh and bright with a lot of bass. My opinion.

Interesting. Definitely thinking speaker change.( bigger warmer) For sure front end change new dac and new preamp, perhaps a Benchmark HPA 4. Not much to look at (who cares) but great reviews.  Tired of the system dictating the type of music I play.  Contacted Modwright and found out that the Oppo BDP 105 had 8 firmware updates. I never did any of them. Am going to try to get that done via ethernet but am not expecting a big change in sound.

I also have a Modwright tube modded OPPO 105D and I have tried numerous tube combinations seeking to tame the harshness I was experiencing. After trying numerous tubes including the tubes recommended by Modwright I settled on Sylvania 6sn gtb 1950's era tubes. Much of my tube search was to attempt to tame the harshness and shrill quality of much of the upper range frequencies being produced. Yours complaint sounds like much of the same issues I was trying to resolve. I recently bought Modwirght's new "Analog Bridge" and I find that the Sylvania tubes also work well in this installation. Brent Jessee (sp.) has the tubes I am speaking about in stock and he was quite decent to deal with.  

Try plugging your amp straight into the wall with the after market cord you were previously using. Plugging the amp into a power conditioner was a big no non which you realize now.

from my humble experience and I wrote this under this and other posts:

subs won't make it warmer.

Good speakers like the Harbeths are not NOT warm. 

That's the amp's job. I definitely wouldn't sell the Harbeths if your problem is lack of warmth  (sound too thin, too bright). In my very uneducated view, that path won't lead you where you want to be.  I had a 45 year old Marantz,  it had the warmest, smoothest sound with any sets of my speakers. I would try a cheap-ish integrated amp first. 

pmiller115      that's the first I've ever heard from someone having the same front end and the same problem. Been thinking for a few years the front end might be the glaring issue.  Incidentally I got the latest firmware update for the bpd 105 and it did nothing for the sound. Using it straight to the amp is still ridiculously unacceptable,  Tube change offs the edginess only slightly, No bloom no weight to the music/  I have a decent listening room now and the system sounds horrible the more I examine it.....use hi volume to try and bring it to life. Thin and hashy is all I hear.

Jond   I went back to the stock cord for the Pass into the wall as I felt the after market power chord  into the wall also added some glare.  Still sounds horrible,

Grislybutter  gonna have to try speakers and a "lesser" amp to see what is going on here.  Could be a combo of bright front end and speakers that are too small.

Following this thread with interest, as I've had this issue crop up over the years across different systems. The last comment above rings true.

I'm dealing with fewer variables in some ways, as the cost of my gear hasn't justified investing in high end cables or power conditioners. Being on the lower end of the gear food chain I'm focused on bang-for-the-buck, as I work with the givens of the space- no possibility for a listening-only sound room.

First experience early on- Heresy's and '70's transistor preamp/amp (apt holman). Screechy, thin, even while room is absorbent.

Second, Cornwalls and vintage tubes (Scott, then Eico HF-81, then Anthem Integrated 1). High's tamed, now bass bloat's the issue, probably due in part to low damping factor of amps.

Started then on a rebuilt Quad ESL57-based system in LR; screech/bass bloat issues gone. Now happily working within those speakers' limitations in that space, tube rolling with a Rogue Atlas. A real late-evenings with rye on rocks system, built for sitting still in the sweet spot.

In a new workplace system I started with Altec 604G's in 620 cabinets driven by the old HF-81. Live space. Pretty good, but highs somewhat forward and harsh. Switched to Alan Eaton SET45 integrated a few days ago. Paint started peeling- the more extended bandwidth of the new amp emphasized the speakers' treble issues, and the better control of the woofer thinned out the bass, but probably made it more accurate (BTW 1.5 watts is enough!). I still suspect the combination of this amp and speakers could be great, so am investing in Jagusch crossovers that address the well known limitations of the stock crossovers (on order, may come next week).

In yet another system (in home/workplace) in a very live medium large space I've run old Monitor Audio MA-3 II 3-way speakers on custom-built Audio Note style stands (steel with lead shot). Powered by the Anthem (push-pull, with 4 EL84's per channel) it's proved extremely listenable. Earlier speaker attempts included Vandersteen II's- really veiled and laid-back. Then Snell E's- sounded like more like boxes than music. Paid a bit more for the Monitor Audios than for the Vandersteens (still only $500), but right off the bat they just sounded right. Smooth across the frequency spectrum, forgiving with mediocre recordings, revealing and tonally compelling with good ones. Then the amp caught fire after being left alone for a few months, due to a malfuctioning tube (sovtek, no fuses in amp). Switched in an old Bedini 25/25 (Transistor class A) that was OK with the Quads- but back to "thin and harsh"! Suspected degraded caps, had those fixed. Better, but I still strained to enjoy the music. Yesterday I got the Anthem back from the shop. Wow- everything's right again. Even with the terrible acoustics of the space, the music takes the tension out of my muscles instead of cranking it up. While this amp hasn't got much of a reputation (not hand-wired, not SET, small output transformers, clunky non-vintage look), it's been a real sleeper for me, playing pretty well to great with the wide variety of types of speakers tried with it, including the picky Quads.

In yet another system (vacation home), I had a heavily modded MAC 5100 integrated paired with ADS 810's. Sounded great, until it crapped out. Tried to get it repaired locally in NH- a good tech said without a schematic describing the mods he wouldn't know where to start- an idiosyncratic set of cap and transistor replacements had been soldered around and over the originals, sometimes also totally replacing them. A real homebrew job. So I sent it off Audio Classics, who restored it to factory condition. Would you believe it? Now the ADS's sound thin and bright. Ugh. Hoping break-in will take care of this.

Clear take-aways? 

If you can't change room acoustics much, the combination and interaction of amp and speakers is key. And the particulars of which amp and which speakers has a lot to do with it. While it's still clear to me that changes at the source/output locations are most consequential (eg the huge difference between a Shibata and a conical stylus), with accumulated experience it's clear how important the right (not the most expensive) power amp is.

Trusting your ears to know what's right when you hear it is crucial as well. I taught color printing for years- no two sets of eyes are alike; we all see color differently. Same with ears. Resist substituting others' experience for yours. My kids can hear 15hz clearly. I don't anymore.

I seek different experiences in my various room/system setups and enjoy learning from these variations. Maybe some day I'll reach beyond DH Labs and Blue Jeans cables and go interconnect crazy, but with the number of systems I run, that seems just a bit too high on the curve of diminishing returns for it to be worth the trouble. For the harsh/thin/bright issue working backwards from the amp/speaker combination is the best way to go, in my limited experience.

@cymivka - Have you ever had the sound you want using the Harbeth speakers?  If so, what I’m your system is different from that time?

I feel like the speaker is the most significant factor in the overall sound of any system.

Mceljo:    The 30'1's replaced Harbeth slh5's that were too boomy in the old listening room.  Thought the 30.1's were just right with the right recordings coupled with the modwrighted oppo bdp 105. But I often felt things were harsh or brittle at times...punchy bass,  boxy sound at times but other times there was lively detail, timbres and naturalness of the sound ,   Chalked it up to mood change or even dirty power (despite two 20 amp dedicated lines,,,sadly they are gone)  So, now Im rethinking the whole set up after I determined the Parasound JC2 has need of service.  Not really interested in listening to anything with the 105 directly feeding the Pass.  Could be tubes for output stage or even for the tubed power unit.  Just not interested in shelling out more cash for tubes that don;'t last 1/10th claimed hours (my experience at least).  Not sure of next move. Keep changing my mind.

In summary I think I was swayed by the 30.1's that gave good detail without boomy bass that rocked the entire apartment building before with the slh5's.  Now Im in a house and can crank it higher..

which Cardas? my golden ref are warm side of neutral

My cardas cables are Clear Cygnus balanced/xlr from cd to pre and pre to amp.

I would try an xp-12 pre. I have a x250.8 and the xp-12 with a pair of klh model 5s and theres zero brightness. Its detailed fleshy and real. 

OP,

Your comment about “Being able to crank it even more”, I think says something about what you value in sound. Have you auditioned a large number of speakers? I would recommend doing a tour of speakers at dealers. Try B&W… and what ever other high end brands are available. I think you may have a speaker sound / value mismatch. You want speakers that really appeal to your values.
 

Your physical move… your change in venues, changed the speaker requirements. I think this is complicating things. 
 

Did you post photos in your virtual system, under your ID? This can be really helpful for us to be helpful.

I am considering the xp-12 but first want to try taking the Oppo out of the mix with a high end dac. 

I feel the sound gets more hashy and bright as the system warms up after being powered down overnight. (not real smooth or great sounding at the start either, just worse as it warms up) Might have to do with tubes, I have 3 sets of output tubes with low hours, No real difference when I change them out when the brightness shows, So maybe rectifier or other tubes in the separate power supply??   Have to hunt those down but only after trying a dac change first. Really not into tube rolling,

And yes still gotta get around to taking pics and posting on my profile, 

Thanks all for your input.  Im taking my time before throwing more dollars at this but I know its inevitable as perhaps being more critical I have higher expectations than before.

Update: 

Thanks to yyzsantabarbara I learned that the jc2 pre amp is out of whack and since I bought yy's Musetec dac I am not willing to wait for the jc2 to be repaired. (shipping, turnaround time) .  Just ordered a Benchmark LA4 preamp after hearing it played on yyzsantabarbara's impressive set up. (plus his glowing reviews and vast experimentation with all sorts of pricey gear) Really don't think I can go wrong for the price...30 day trial and all. Now have to put on my 21st century ears and get into streaming the right way.   Might have something more to ad once the LA$ arrives.

Just tried Musetec 005 dac (already broken in) fed by Oppo bdp 105 via optical out (cd) with dac fed straight into the Pass Labs X250.5 (by passing Modwrighted tubed output) (jc2 headed back to Parasound for repair) Unfortunately my 105 does not have usb audio output.

Far from best set up. Waiting for Benchmark LA4 to be shipped.

BUT....First impressions: sound is cleaner, fuller if not a lil recessed compared to what I had before especially with the oppo feeding the amp directly. (unlistenable) there's a deeper soundstage...voices don't glare as much. And there's more pronounced instrument separation.  This is all very promising. Hoping new pre amp will bring more low end and smooth out the top end.  LA4, though, is said to let the source and amp shine...no fixing the sound.  CDP might need replacing...then gotta pin down streaming.

But can listen to this while waiting for the new pre

Focus on cables and their replacement. Stay away from bright sounding cables that have silver wire. Don't buy the ones that are advertised as highly revealing as this can put you over the top, especially if your components are considered to be high definition, you may end up with too much of a good thing.

Update.

Seems like the bright sound gremlin was lurking in the Pass Labs amp.  After new dac and preamp I finally unhooked the Pass and stuck in my older Nuforce V3 monoblocs that were just collecting dust.  I'm very surprised how good they sound with the dac and pre It;ll be interesting to see what a difference a repaired Pass amp can make..  Oppo 105 is acting as a transport..  Not done by a long shot yet.  Chasing a warmer bigger sound.  Pro Ject Transport may be next as its gotten lots of praise in these forums. 

What’s broken in the amplifier that causes it to sound bright?