I was going to say Townshend Platform until "don’t want to spend money" at which point we are SOL. Even a sand box costs money! Your answer is springs. The other stuff you are doing, no amount of cork or sorbothane ever gonna fix this. Nobsound springs are dirt cheap- $30 per set of four. Then when you realize springs are the answer hopefully the next step is to realize really well engineered springs will be even better, at which point you get the Platform and are amazed, and move the Nobsound to some other components. Because for sure they are better than whatever is under them now.
You can also talk to John Hannant at Townshend about getting some springs for the rack. This is not "off the shelf" but they have done stuff like this for others, are helping someone I know right now in fact. You can also do both. The Platform is probably the easier thing to try first.
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Adjust your cartridge tracking force and antiskating first. Are you sure everything correct? |
How far can you move away from the turntable before it skips, assuming you put the stylus in the groove while standing right next to the rack? Does it change with direction left or right? Mark that spot on the floor and check to see if other areas are unaffected. You may have a weak floor/joist area near the rack where the floor settled unevenly with the weight of your equipment. Try the turntable at the other end of the room, maybe? |
Switch back to the other brands. Simple. |
Chakster, TT is setup properly. what's odd is I can drum my fingers on mable slab while playing, it's fine. I can drum my fingers on plinth of table while playing, fine. Just can't walk past without skipping. Floor is very solid and rack very stable, so I guess it has to be the floor. So my next question is, does anyone think removing spikes from rack will do anything? Pain in the ass but I will probably break it down and try this tomorrow. Appreciate your responses, minus bubba12.
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Yes, the floor… that is it. The standard solution is a wall mounted shelf. People in apartments and upstairs the world over have been doing this for decades. Don’t get wrapped up in conversations about suspended tables and other stuff.
I had an AR turntable with a suspension forty years ago and it skipped with footfalls (suspended wood floor), although I could wrap hard on the table or cover and it would not skip. I owned a VPI Aries for over twenty years and it never skipped (concrete under the flooring). |
Already provided two solutions- three, if you want to count springs under the rack. Which you seem to not have read anything I posted. One more try.
The problem is not the floor. If the floor was so unstable then you would have had problems with those other tables. The problem is the frequency of vibration going up the rack into the table is right in a range this particular table is unable to handle.
The solution is springs. Thanks.
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when everything looks like a spring….every spring looks just like a hammer…
but thank God there are real engineering firms in the USA close to you that specialize in isolating this and more. For example Johnny who you know, carries HRS, turntable bases start just north of $1k. There are others, you have many choices of excellent TT and other isolation.
A quick ? unipivot on any of the other TT ?
eyeball the cuing lever spacing, Use a light, 140 g thru 200 g LPs
Nick did your setup ? excellent man and his work ethic superb. Listening to a high resolution file of a TT he setup, Cello to die for….but it sounds like he setup at shop and you transported ? Was he aware of the skip issue ?
A wall mount ( source thru Rega dealer or online ) is a couple of hundred bucks….i know $$ but….
level ? try to level the table with feet screwed all the way up and then down .25 to .5 turns. you may have feet extended into an unstable range.
removing rack spikes unlikely to help, most likely make it worse…35 years of experience w Linn ( selling against them but fixing others work , whenever i did that i took along a loaner SOTA Sapphire….few came back… )
Finally you got excellent advice on temporary relocation of the table, you are not testing sonics just skip. Corner in tight best spot.
hope your frustration level goes down
jim |
The problem is the VP! Scout has no suspension, and the approaches you've taken to solve your problem don't acknowledge that fact. Solid Steel racks are, as the name suggests, pretty solid---stiff, passing the mechanical energy from the floor into the MDF plinth of the VPI. The MDF shelves on the SS rack flex (I know, I own four of them), but not enough to create any isolation between floor/rack and turntable.
VPI's first product was an isolation platform---a wooden box with no bottom, springs installed in the open cavity and facing the shelf upon which it was placed. It was reportedly pretty effective, but finding one may be difficult.
So, as suggested above, try a set of four springs between the top shelf of your SS rack and some sort of platform for the VPI. Symposium Acoustics makes a platform designed expressly for turntables; it is a multi-layer shelf-like plank (aluminum top and bottom, foam rubber between the two) fitted with special springs on the bottom. Worth a look on the SA website.
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tomic601, yes, I brought the table to Nick,he was aware of the issue, I am confident table set up is not the problem. I do have all four feet of table screwed all the way in. Thank you for your input everyone.
MC, please get over yourself. I promise you I read every word you wrote and appreciate your response. Problem is ,I just don't happen to have springs laying around the house. I did just order a set of Nobsound from Amazon and will be glad to update if anyone cares For $32. worth a try. The Townshend platform costs more than the table! |
Rigid turntable, unipivot tonearm, wooden floor, bad set up, big mess.
No way to fix it without spending money, money better spent on a better turntable. You might be able to make it better but stopping it altogether will take a MinusK platform to the tune of $5000. A cheaper platform might work but I do not know that for a fact. Go over your set up. Make sure your cartridge is matched to the arm. If you do anything get rid of that tonearm.
Don't feel bad about it. Many of us myself included have bought equipment we wound up hating. Experience is the best teacher of all. |
I would not spend good money after bad. If it were me I'd chock it up to experience and get rid of the turntable. Look for a used Sota Sapphire. It will never do this to you even if you set it up poorly. |
My wood floors are obviously springy, yours is solid, EXCEPT ... Felt feet/rubber under each shelf, super solid JVC 7 layer Plinth. The final solution: 2" square isoblocks under the 4 factory leveling feet. https://www.amazon.com/LBG-Products-Anti-Vibration-Conditioner-Compressors/dp/B07NLR9FHJ/ref=sr_1_18?dchild=1&keywords=isolator%2Bblocks&qid=1626180734&sr=8-18&th=1 prefer cork? https://www.amazon.com/Turntable-Equipment-Tuneful-Cables-Audiophile/dp/B076DGD3X2/ref=sr_1_5?dchild...I start the stylus on the very outside edge and need to get 3 steps away before it hits the content. After that, never a problem, wait till end of side, or very cautious approach while playing. I would try/return simple things before I spent any real money https://www.amazon.com/kwmobile-Turntable-Isolation-Feet-Anti-Vibration/dp/B08V8CSJRQ/ref=sr_1_16?dc...https://www.amazon.com/Nobsound-Aluminum-Speakers-Isolation-Amplifiers/dp/B07K9ZYP84/ref=sr_1_3?dchi...Some TT designs are very susceptible to vertical movement, specific frequencies. I loved my Thorens TD124, but I could not stop vertical vibrations from getting to it’s bearing, even from far away, nothing worked. You could say it was a fundamentalist: No Dancing Allowed. |
OP you are welcome ;-) Hopefully you can work way thru it. |
Contact VPI and see what they say.
info@vpiindustries.com
1-732-583-6895
My set-up is very similar to yours but without the issue. Maybe try using a different cartridge if you have one to rule that out? You didn’t mention what you use or it’s age.
Hoping for the best! |
Thanks bslon for contact #. I have a set of Nobsound springs coming, hopefully they do the trick. Cartridge is a Soundsmith Zephyr lomi.
Again, thanks to all that offered help.
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In case anyone is interested: I tried a set of Nobsound springs as advocated by Millercarbon. They did make a difference: I could now at least walk gently past rack without skipping, but its still too touchy for me to live with. ? would adding a few more help?. I know if I could put a steel lally column under floor it would probably do the trick, but my oil tanks and piping are right where it would need to be, so its not an option. Looking like I just might have to move on from this table.....
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Glad at least the springs helped, but FYI, my Linn, which is a sprung table was horribly sensitive to footfalls. Only a wall shelf cured it. BTW, that's why I always recommend people try putting a half glass of water in the proposed turntable spot and see if it the water wobbles when you walk by. |
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As you have noticed some suspended turntables will also skip with footfalls. The two mentioned here are the Linn and the AR. The Linn is a copy of the AR and uses the same unstable suspension design. They are both also underdamped. Sota was the first company to address this problem back in 1980 by hanging the turntable from the suspension instead of sitting the turntable on top of the suspension. The Sota design is inherently more stable. SME and Basis copied this design. All three turntables are totally resistant to foot falls. The Linn and AR suspensions will isolate the turntables from vibrational issues within the audio band but because they are unstable impulse problems like footfalls get them skipping. Yes, you can tap on them vertically without trouble and if on a very sturdy rack you can even hit them vertically with a hammer. But, just a light tap to the side of either turntable will cause skipping. The Sota will tolerate this until you hit it so hard the turntable actually moves. The MinusK platform is special because it is not just sprung vertically but also horizontally. You can cause horizontal movement and the turntable won't skip.
@winoguy17 , you could put lally columns on either side of the furnace with a beam between them bracing the floor but there are no guarantees that it will work. I think you best spend the money and time on a new table. IMHO you will also benefit from a tonearm with proper bearings. |
mijostyn" Linn is a copy of the AR and uses the same unstable suspension design."
Actually they are noted and recognized for being precise, reliable, and stable.
"Sota design is inherently more stable. SME and Basis copied this design"
Actually using four springs is not more stable than three there is nothing more stable than a "tripod."
" All three turntables are totally resistant to foot falls."
This is speculative and it is untrue and false you act like you know everything about turntables but just the other day you said you don't even own one!!!!!
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With springs it is essential to tune in order to match the load to the springs. If they are too stiff they won't isolate much, and that may be what is going on here. Looking at what you've got to play with, I would try springs under the 3" thick butcher block, with the turntable on top of that. Add or remove springs until they are compressed about half way under load. When properly loaded, when you give the whole thing a push it should bounce or oscillate fairly slowly. In addition to adding/subtracting springs you can also weight the shelf, with anything such as a bag of sugar being fine for a test.
As good as Nobsound work, one of their bigger shortcomings besides lack of damping is they really only isolate best up and down. Because of the number of springs and the way they are arranged they have a lot of stiffness side to side and in other planes than vertical. Without being there it is hard to know but you may have a situation where the rack is rocking front to back or something like that more so than up and down. If that is the case you can get better by tuning Nobsound but the real solution will be Townshend Pods or Platform, those isolate equally in all planes.
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Clearthink, I owned two LP 12s and they are anything but stable. Let me see if I can explain this to you so you can understand it. The Linn and the AR sub chassis to which the platter and the tonearm are mounted sit ON TOP of three springs. If you put a mass on top of a spring and give it a push what happens. Now what happens if I increase the size of the mass? Eventually the spring will not recover at all and will remain bent over. The Sota, SME and early Basis turntables hang the sub chassis from the springs. Increasing the mass will lower the resonance frequency of the suspension and stretch the springs a little more but the springs will never bend over. They will always come to rest in the same position. They are laterally stable. The suspensions on the Linn and AR are not laterally stable. They are easy to upset. Sota started with three springs but found that four springs worked better as did SME and Basis. |
Thanks MC, that is how I have it set up, springs under maple block.According to Nobsound 4 springs should handle 70 lbs. and Im at about 58-60. Probably going to bail on this and go back to my other table, don't think this Scout is a good match for my room. Again, thanks for all that offered help.
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Any time. VPI must be frustrating after the way it worked with CA and Rega. Would be curious to know if Pods would take care of it. I know the sound will improve, a lot, but would it eliminate this devil of a problem? So bad it almost makes me wonder if there is something wrong with that table. It is used you know?
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table was thoroughly gone over and set up by very respected analog guy. Pretty sure the table is ok. Arm not meant for my domicile....
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Arm not meant for any domicile. If it is one thing I want to get across to people is unipivot arms are hopelessly inferior without aggressive stabilization measures as used by Graham and Basis, two very expensive arms that IMHO are not worth the money. The Kuzma 4 point, Reed and Schroder arms are superior in every way and cost less.
winoguy, look for a used Sota Sapphire. You will be able to jump up and down all you want. They will pop up on occasion from people moving up the line. The only table that is distinctly superior is the Dohmann Helix and that starts at $50,000. |
@winoguy17 hey was wondering if any of this great advice worked?
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Try wedging a piece of wood tightly between the wall and your turntable table. This has cured this problem many times. |
@mijostyn : I still have my Clearaudio Concept wood that I will probably be reverting to.
@earlyflynn : MC's Nobsound suggestion made the most improvement, but still not a complete cure.
@strigreen : someone else suggested this also, might give it a try today if time allows. I will surely report back if it works.
As always, thanks everyone.
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Make absolutely certain the cueing lever is fully clear of the arm tube, over the full range of the record surface. Always a good idea to double check this when you have issues with skips/tracking. |
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amazon, prime, why not order 12 bargain 'solutions', try em, return em, ....
surprise, my dinky iso-blocks worked, I expected to use them for something else.
a certain density, which we know not, should solve it 'enough' I hope.
I hope you get lucky |
Hey @winoguy17 Mat from VPI here. If you haven't already, send over an email and some pictures of your setup, we can help diagnose and get you figured out. I will say our current feet/isolation is a major improvement over our older models. I always like to see pictures, especially when used, so I know what we are looking at. The Scout never really had an issue like that but if there are third party feet or something we are all missing who knows! Regardless, we are always here to try and help :)
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Wow, thanks Matt. I (hopefully) sent some pics.
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Maybe something as simple as a butchers block will absorb enough vibration to make a difference, that’s not much money unless you go for a fancy one aimed at audiophiles.
My current deck is basically ply wood on rigid cones with an arm, motor and bearing built in, it didn’t skip or feedback when on a rack (by then Naim Fraim Lite) only a foot from a large speaker on a wooden floor, before I moved last year.
The original Townshend seismic sink was basically a wheebarrow inner tube in a box with a loose lid. I used one under a mk2 Rock for a while. you balanced the deck on it so it was level (which meant it wasn’t centred) but as it gradually lost air it didn’t sink evenly. With the damping trough and a Rega arm it was just about OK, better than the sorbothane feet onto the rack sound wise but when I switched to a Unipivot arm it had to go. By then Townshend had his damped springs and did a conversion for the mk2 to replace the sorbothane, My Rock used to sit on an Origin Live Skyline basic platform, which was pretty rigid, but the floor under it was wood. I couldn’t use a Manticore Mantra (a poor, or maybe thinking, mans LP12) on it without skipping.
If you set the VPI up yourself be aware that the tracking force will read high if measured above record height but a professional should know that. |
