Parts Connexion has a number of very nice Monitor Audio speakers for sale on Audiogon, i'd jump on any of them.
Best,
Erik
Best,
Erik
Help, my system sounds lifeless!
Hi, this is my first post. I rushed putting my system together when i emigrated from the UK to New Jersey. In fact this site was partly to blame as i was attracted to the amazing "used" deals! I bought a pair of Dali Helicon 400 (mark I) as they passed the WAF. The rest of the system contains a Belles Soloist Integrated and Simaudio Equinox SE CD player, wireworld platinum eclispe 6 interconnect & Audio Art Cable Classic SC-5 Speaker Cable. My room maybe partly to blame but generally the system sounds lifeless, with little soundstage (better when i play vinyl). I am not feeling/falling in love with the speakers and do not like the bass response (which is often reported). I would like to change the speakers and was wondering if you could help. I have an extremely large cd collection (and have recently bought a used Lumin D1, but unfortunately not set up yet) covering all kinds of music. I am thinking 8ohm with better sensitivity would be a better option. Looking to spend around $3000-4000 used. Some contenders include Revel F206 or F208, Tannoy DC8 or DC8T, ATC SCM40, JA Pulsars (maybe too much $), PBN Liberty, Aerial 10T (never see them used) but they must have grills as sometimes kids go in the basement. Maybe Monitors with stands would be better option? I am hoping the flickr link works so you can see my room (excuse the feet!). I want to fall in love with my large music collection again! Looking for good bass & soundstage and speakers that can play all kinds of music (sometimes I'm partial to deep electronic music). In some ways because my taste is so vast i am not particularly looking for ultra revealing speakers (Nora Jones speakers i think you call them!). Looking forward to the NY audio show so i can hear some systems. Thanks for all the help, cheers Paul https://www.flickr.com/gp/97665913@N06/a5G6d9
70 responses Add your response
Still here! I just wondered if anyone has some advice for new speakers priced under $3000 (Used). As I listen to all types of music and my room is not ideal (see earlier link) I think I am going to go for some monitors or smaller floorstanders. I like the odd bit of electronic music so bass is a must. So far on my list are: Volent VL2 Tannoy DC8 Pulsars Prana Fidelity Fifty90 Proac Response 2 Some other that have caught my eye (should be ear) are; Proac Response 2.5 Tekton Lore S Spatial M3 Turbo Alta Audio Rhea Any help greatly received, happy new year. |
Yes, put the system on the long wall if you can, and play with toe-in. Often a big difference in bass quality and imaging. Then put some silver coated copper speaker cables in there. I recommend Mapleshade (awesome and quick and transparent, but can be a bit tempermental) or Morrow Audio (start with SP2, terrific midrange, and quick enough). Try this before going down the speaker/amp change-itis rabbit hole... |
Well I enjoyed my first audio show and found it very friendly.
The only room i couldn't get into was the audio arts room.
Maybe it was quieter on Sunday as the marathon put a few folks
off. A lot of the brands i wanted to hear were not present but highlights were the GamuT, Mola Mola/YG, Technics, Prism/ATC, &
Sonner rooms. Oh and some big horn speakers (Volti) were great. I was
hoping my jaw would drop at my first audio show but it didn't quite
happen unfortunately, maybe i am more of a sound snob than i thought!
That or the famous small NY hotel rooms! Still I did get a few music
requests in! Well its finally Thanksgiving so I am hoping to put the Dali speakers up for sale, set up another router for the Lumin and play with some new cable. I am starting to finalize my monitor list (so far the Tannoy DC8, Proac Response 2, Harbeth Compact 7 ES3, Revel, Focal) so please let me know if you have any tips. As mentioned I play all sorts of music, so they need to sound fantastic with Kate Bush as well as Trentemoller! I will try and find a tape measure and provide room dimensions. Wishing everyone a happy Thanksgiving. Cheers Paul |
Speakers should go on the long wall with NOTHING between them. Re-do yourI just viewed a video on http://www.myspeakersetup.com/ which heartily recommends speaker placement on the long wall, and if this works, which I suspect it will, my audionut world has been changed for the better and forever.room with this in mind, and it will sound MUCH better |
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Dear Paul, Here is an official promise to you. For quality speakers, here is two options with which you cant go wrong and that many in US don't know about; XTZ. It is Swedish made with top SEAS and Accuton drivers, it is sold direct from manufacturer, and I can certify are amongst world's best. Its flagship, the Divine 100.49 (actually being replaced with new model the Alpha) are a quarter of the price of the B&W 800D, but they beat these English speakers by far, and can play in small to large rooms. If you want a bookshelf model, the XTZ Master M2 is an absolute winner. I own these and know what i am talking about, these are real gems you will not regret one second. Just a word of cautious: they really need the break-in hours before they sound like paradise. Sound is pure, tones are perfect from top to bottom, balanced, holographic, excellent both loud and soft, dynamic, you name it they have it, they are really that good. I can easily state that they are miraculous speakers for the money. Now if you want a not less than brilliant amp, full of life and true musical vibrations, the Coincident 211PP Dragon MkII monos, with upgraded Psvane WE211 tubes, are difficult to match at any price (one month or about 250hrs break-in needed). If you decide on some of these components and are not satisfied, i will stop making any audio recommendations for the rest of my life. |
I still want actual dimensions and pics from all angles. We don't know the rooms true dimensions, based on two photos. I can understand WAF in living room, but in the room you are in, in the basement, you need to take control. After my girlfriend moved in, she started hinting at changes. I was ok until she suggested moving the stereo to the long wall. When asked why not, I made it cleat it was about sound quality, and that she could make changes in any room of the house but that one. To the OP, if kids could do damage to the system, put a lock on the door, and then start training them when you are around. |
In the $3-$4k price range, there are some Reference 3A Grand Veena's FS on USA Audio Mart atm asking $3900CAD which would punch well above their price point - http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649301570-reference-3a-grand-veena-speakers/ |
your wife would LOVE some tapestries and wall hangings int heroom see my post above (way above) - if done well, they may be able to make the speakers act like they are in a larger room AND, when she sees the blankets behind the speakers, just say "oh those are just to test for where to put those nice tapestries you were talking about earlier") |
Another option for you, try out the LM-1 kit. I just put this up on my desk in my bedroom. Unlike my main speakers, the LM-1 works VERY well in tight spaces. You get detail and air even when they are crowded. http://speakermakersjourney.blogspot.com/2016/02/the-lm-1-bookshelf-version.html It's a great foundation for a satellite/subwoofer system. |
Apologies I have been meaning to write for a while but have just started a new job and am drowning in work. One has to keep the rain off as well as save for new speakers! Firstly thanks so much for all the replies, I have really enjoyed reading the replies. Such a great forum/website. Unfortunately i can't see me making too many changes to the room itself (WAF etc) but the plan is set up the Lumin this wkd (last wkd i failed as i realised my new router is not compatible with FIOS (bl**dy crooks), go the NY audio show and actually listen to some speakers instead of reading about them (!), and most importantly sell my Dali's and buy some monitors that have more life and synergy with my set up. I have some new cables i would like to try also. Will keep you posted. Lastly, if Trump gets in I moving back to the UK! Cheers, Paul. |
Oregonpapa wrote: Its one of my pet peeves. A guy comes into the room with a problem. He asks for suggestions on how to solve the problem. He gets tons of sincere answers ... and doesn’t have the common courtesy to just say a simple "thank you," but doesn’t even acknowledge the responses in any way. Yep. Original post almost 3 weeks ago spawning 48 responses spanning 19 days and not a single response or followup from the OP. I think some people get off watching us jump through hoops to solve problems based on laughably inadequate information. |
The danger here is to lean to far the other way. Purchase some bright and forward and thin speakers, most of them are. So don't go overboard the other way and check with us far more knowledgeable people before making any decisions. In the end you may wish you had stayed in the UK. Well we are glad to have you here kidding aside. |
Here is some good advise with a Money Back Guarantee. Open Baffle Spatial Audio model 3 if you want low bass around 30 hz,the model 4 smaller will go down high 30s. Check them out Clayton gives you I believe 45 or 60 days money back. They sound great I have several speakers but the 3 s and get all options . |
I agree w/you Soundsreal.....my cheap experiment is just for S's and Giggles and would prove right away what I believe to be true, that those speakers are just too big for that room. Over the years, I have found myself shaking my head many times, that some inexpensive speakers sound much better than they have a right to. To me, that's the fun of this hobby. |
Not sure if the OP has given up on us, but for posterity at least . . . +1 on using a DSPeaker or similar room correction component. I had a similar set of problems in my listening room (a study -- smallish room, reflective surfaces (french doors), one speaker nearer a wall than the other) and a similar problem of lifeless sound. The DSPeaker (Antimode 2.0 Dual Core in my case) made a huge difference. The system sounds awesome -- to me at least. I had a nasty resonance around 75mHZ that is now . . . gone. One aspect of using room correction equipment that isn't often mentioned is that -- completely aside from moderating unwanted low frequency bumps and dips) -- they can help you determine, in objective terms with actual microphone test results, optimum speaker placement and room treatments. It's a little tedious to do the experimentation and testing, but at the end not only can you "trust your ears," but you can see the data through frequency response plots. In my own case, shortening a long story, the DSPeaker actually saved me money by demonstrating that a separate subwoofer in addition to my ML Motion 20's was not really doing much. The speakers alone were getting down to about 32 mHZ +/- 3dB on their own and the improvement in low-end frquency response was marginal, and boomy to one degree or another, irrespective of sub placement. The sub went back and I've been delighted ever sense. YMMV, of course, but that's my own experience with the DSPeaker. Easily the most impactful component I have. Cheers, Alex |
Agree with everyone else here that the speakers are too big for the room, but for S's & G's, why not try this experiment: Buy a cheap small pair of British mini monitors and see if you don't just love the way they sound compared to your large speakers in that room. Celestion C3's, Mission 70's mk II, or Mission 731's for $100 or less and I'll bet you'll be floored with how good they sound in that room. And then you could upgrade into a smaller pair of speakers. I just love the ProAc Super Tablettes and if the money is really burning a hole in your pocket, get a pair of LS 3/5a's or ProAc Response 1's. |
A short p.s. From your snap: 1. the speakers appear a bit big for the room, but I don't see any obvious reason for the sound being dull, assuming you move your feet to allow the sound waves to flow over you... 2. you need to grow a pair and relocate your stereo to the optimum living room location. 3. The Dali's might be a difficult load? The Soloist isn't a powerhouse is it? 4. Try the cable change first, least expensive option. 5. I hope you didn't leave Blighty looking for a calmer, more stable political process..... |
Not familiar with this gear but in general one should make sure hearing is in good shape whenever a system that should sound good sounds "lifeless". Especially before making any changes. Ears need periodic maintenance and cleaning sometimes just like all the rest of the gear. Wax buildup/etc can happen to anyone. |
I see so many people here pointing to room treatments. I will -partially- agree. The room that he has is not really that great. I can see a couple of problems. The right side of the room is open, which is good, but the left side has these cabinets very close to the speaker. This will cause the left speaker to "blare" some because the mids/highs will plane/reflect off of the cabinets some. Also, that soffit built into the ceiling on the top/left edge of the wall may cause some problems with brightness. Bass response can be an issue with room nodes where some sound absorption panels can help. However, I personally feel that broadband sound absorption is really not that good. In my experience, it really sucks the life out of the music. It really reduces the high frequency excitement. One thing I noticed is that you have a LOT of silver in your system (Wireworld Platinum Eclipse & Audio Art SC-5). Silver has a higher conductivity than copper and will charge/discharge much faster. In practical terms and in my experience, this means that waveforms will tend be translated to be much faster than normal. There will be a natural push in the mids/highs and I have found that silver will lack bass/midbass body and punch. Adding silver can help a very slow/warm system (such as tubes), but your system is the complete opposite of tubes. The Simaudio CD player has been said to be very clean/clear and solid state - opposite of something like a Jolida tube CD player. The Belles Soloist Integrated has a fully discrete input stage and is probably a very strong power supply/circuit. I have also found that silver will be so fast and clean that it give a somewhat "artificial" sound. The music and vocals will not sound natural or real. (I recently even found that just adding a silver-plated fuse holder will impart this clean/artificial signature). All of this together (system synergy) may be causing your "lifeless" type of sound. You said that you like your turntable sound just a bit better. This source will present a warmer/slow type of sound than your extra-clean CD source. I would like you to try a very cheap experiment. Go out and get some 12awg Oxygen Free (OFC) stranded copper speaker wire. You can get this anywhere, BestBuy, whatever (Monoprice sells a 50 foot spool for $16). Just make sure it’s OFC and stranded copper. (do not use the BlueJeans Beldon 10/12awg cable - it is inferior to normal OFC stranded). You can easily bi-wire just by doing a double run. Burn it in for 24 hours and then listen to it. My guess is that it’s going to sound more natural/fuller with more bass. If this experiment succeeds and you like this, maybe try a copper-only interconnect (such as the Wireworld Eclipse -- no silver wire, only pure copper). The Wireworld Eclipse will only cost you $375 new for a half-meter. Once you complete these really cheap experiments, you can look at different speaker wire. Or you can look at room treatment if you feel. Or even think about different speakers. |
I would not spend money on room treatments. Wait till you purchase speakers and see how the room responds to them. Over the years I have made my own treatments. Recently I ordered a heavy 28 oz fabric and installed curtains behind my system. Previously I have used 5X8 foot throw rugs on the rear and one side walls. You can hang them using carpet tack strip nailed to the wall 16" OC and then the rug is attached. Find some decorative rugs. |
I have a pair of Joseph Audio Prisms that I think are fantastic speakers and work well with tubes or solid state. These monitors sound big, not the miniaturized sound of many monitors, and they are very musical, but they still check the all of the audiophiles boxes such as imaging, tone, dynamics, micro and macro details. They are roughly half of the price of the Pulsars, $3699. list, and worth every penny. |
spoutmouzert ... Those in this thread who have recommended room treatments and speaker placement have hit the nail on the head. If you sell your Dali's, only to replace them with different speakers, you're just throwing your money away. If nothing else is done, the new speakers will sound like crapolla too. You can't just throw speakers into a room and expect them to sound right. Consider that the room is part of the overall system and has to be thought of and treated just like another component in the system. There are tons of room treatments and tweaks, some expensive, and some truly cost effective, that would get you a lot further down the road toward audio nirvana. Keep exploring this site and you will discover them. If you want a blow by blow description, just ask. Good luck ... OP |
Those Tannoy DC 8T's are very nice speakers. Lots of emotion. The cabinets are plywood so they don't suck the life out of the music. Plus you can drive them with an inexpensive 300B amplifier for a rich midrange. The DC 8T's were preferred over the larger DC 10T's which probably has to much bass to muddy things up. |
First, welcome to the splendor of the Garden State! Things must be real bad in the UK. Heh heh. Anyway, try hanging a blanket over your TV. All the reflections bouncing off that can mess with your imaging. Been there. Also, if you haven't already, take the grills off the speakers. These are two easy freebies that could help. Also agree with Jond that in that room wide dispersion speakers (i.e. Joseph Audio) might be problematic. Something like Vandersteen might work better and also improve imaging. If you can make it to Audio Connection in NJ I'd highly recommend going. All that said, if it's me and given your room I'd first absolutely try a room correction device like DSpeaker as amp1231 suggested. There are very few rooms that don't DRAMATICALLY benefit from room/speaker correction, and in your case it could potentially solve a multitude of problems. I've heard several of these at shows and in personal systems, and after hearing the corrected result you just wouldn't even want to listen to the non-corrected version -- it literally sounds broken by comparison. Buy used or try some kind of demo, but definitely explore this path. It could well save you tons of time and $$$ playing with room treatments and equipment. Best of luck. |