Headphones vs speakers….

my ears hurt and I tend to cause a lot of accidents after 30 minutes when I wear headphones. Am I doing it wrong?

fsonicsmith1 - I like all your analogies but I’m glad you stopped before you went too far. Red Burgundy is made from Pinto Noir grapes, not red Zinfandel ( original indigenous North American grape) & the two  are her different. Both can be excellent but it’s like comparing a tube amp w/ a class D solid state. Maybe a delicious Oregonian Pinot would have been more appropriate?

Either can be a great a experience. However, you're missing something important with headphones. Headphones completely isolate left channel from right channel. Stereo is engineered so that the right ear hears some of the left speaker and and vice versa. That's why they use headphones in the engineering process...to isolate and determine the degrees of blend.

You're missing some of the imaging experience with headphones. That said, headphones naturally eliminate much of the music/space interplay and will be easy for most to enjoy music. It just eliminates all the variables.

But if you're willing to make some big concessions to the room...and most cannot or will not...you will be rewarded with a sense of scale and impact that headphones can't quite reach.

My current room cannot eclipse a decent set of headphones. But I'm not giving up because my last room surely did.

Rooms are tougher than headphones. This is my experience.

@fsonicsmith1 

Real well thought out post. Newbies can be a welcome breath of fresh air on here. No doubt that headphones have their place in the audio world. Even If I don't listen to them at home anymore, they always travel with me. Got back from vacation in Gd Cayman and had a pair hooked up to my android phone via a simple in cable dac, listening to Qobuz every evening while going to sleep. Life is good.

The analogy I will pick out of the wild blue is cooking over an outdoor wood fire vs. cooking in an indoor kitchen. Two different environments, two different overriding methodologies and two differing results. I use this analogy because smoking Q on an outdoor stick burner smoker is a hobby of mine. 

There is something about headphone amp design that sucks me in. Even more than with speaker amps, the design and implementation of an exotic or bespoke headphone amp is something I find fascinating. I own five, a Little Dot (tube), a Luxman P-750u (fully balanced SS), a Violectric HPA 200 (SS), a Quicksilver (tube, of course), and a monster of an amp, an Ampsandsand Nautilus. Over the years I have owned many brands and designs of headphones and have settled mostly upon ZMF's. I have tried many brands of headphone cables including some exotic custom made cabling at uber-prices. 

I mostly listen through my loudspeakers but just as sometimes I feel like getting out my Japanese hand crafted knives, All-Clad cookware, fresh vegetables, etc. to cook, say, veal sweetbreads over polenta and other times I feel like smoking a full packer brisket, it is a matter of "moods and foods". Perhaps another analogy would the best American zinfandels vs. the best Burgundies but I better stop.....

All one needs to do is spend some time at the Head-Fi site or another, forum.headphnes.com to get sucked into the downright zealotry displayed by headphone enthusiasts. Likewise, go to a CanJam or similar event and it is hard not to get hooked. By and large the headphone community tend to be younger and Asian/European. The reasons are simple; headphones don't require a room and the cost of entry into the hobby is much less. 

Another gateway drug into headphone addiction is travel or commuting to work. I own a pair of custom IEM's made from foam molds of my ears. With a Ray Samuels portable headphone amp (now we get back into audio jewelry) and a good portable source (I have a Basso player) the sound is often immersive and transportive (sorry for the fancy words). And...since I often travel with my Macbook Pro, streaming Qobuz with an Audioquest Dragon Cobalt puts a big smile on my face too. The point being if you want to take your music with you, nothing beats headphones. 

It’s clear that headphone & speaker listens are two different things. Listening on good headphones (Sennheiser 600) w/ a good headphone amp ( Naim) back in about 2002 showed me just how much I was missing through my speakers in detail & nuance & led me on path of substantial, incremental improvements.

I’ve always thought the big Martin Logan’s (CLS?) , the big Sound Labs & the Apogees sounded like giant headphones in a good way. Spooky revealing if not necessarily “live sound”. 

Call me skeptical mrskeptic. It's hard to buy your open mindedness when you don't have a system posted. I like my house of stereo open floor system over any headphones and you probably can tell why. Yours?

Best headphone amp bang for buck is the Audio-GD HE-9 LE. If ordered from Audio-GD will cost about $1900 plus right now 5% off. Very clean and very loud if you wish. Plays balanced or straight pin, balanced is best with their products. My get one for around $1000 used.

I'm surprised no-one's highlighted the biggest difference between in-room listening and headphones.

With headphones there's no leakage between channels.  Your left ear hears the left channel, the whole left channel and nothing but the left channel.

This gives a very holographic experience wholly different from listening to speakers in a space, even an anechoic space.  I lived in an apartment for 20 years and listened mainly on headphones - Stax electrostatics.  The sound was cleaner and more etched than from any speaker which certainly had an attraction.  I liked it but those Staxs and their amp have remained in their boxes ever since.

In 1969 my brother and I would go to a small jazz club/bar in a small upstairs place in a town in northern England, ever since then that is the sound I have sought. I have that now. I could never achieve that with headphones.

Obviously headphones have their place (not with me though) but I will never get the  soundstage I want with headphones.

"Sex with a condom"? Laughable. 

Each way to listen to music offers pros and cons but the biggest con I read about here is the close-mindedness of some people. Headphones offer a way to listen to lots of different presentations without breaking the bank or needing a barn to have the room for all the speakers you'd need to recreate the various sound profiles. 

@thomastrouble I would agree with you but only with 1 brand of headphones. I have the Benchmark stack like you, in-fact I had an HPA4 preamp but sold it when I heard another brand and I realized that I was no longer interested in regular headphones. I sold the HPA4 and bought the LA4 later, after a merry-go-round of preamps.

If you want to have headphones that sound like your 2-channel gear. Most likely way better than most 2-channel gear, do a demo of the following:

• RAAL SR1b earphones (these are unlike headphones)
• RAAL VM-1a genius level tube headphone amp, ONLY suitable for 2 RAAL headphones, SR1b + CA-1a
• RAAL Star8 Silver cable (or RAAL SR728 cable)
• Benchmark DAC3

The above is my very best "2-channel" system. I am getting a KEF Blades 2 Meta with a CODA #16 amp. I do not think it will beat the above gear in most sonic attributes. The floor stander will definitively have more drive and power that you will feel in your bones, but the RAAL will have a more intimate sound, like you are there with the performers. Just incredible what the RAAL guys have accomplished.

I said I would never go back to regular headphone but I wanted to hear what RAAL could do next. If you want a regular headphone system that is not like 2-channel but a real amazing rock and roll headphone. Demo the following:

• RAAL CA-1a headphones
• RAAL VM-1a
• RAAL Star8 Silver cable (or RAAL SR728 cable)
• Benchmark DAC3

Some cheaper amp alternate to hear these 2 phones are the following:

- Schitt Jotunhiem R (for RAAL Only, $299 clearance sale)

- RAAL HSA-1a solid state headphone amp

- Benchmark AHB2 with a warm DAC and Benchmark speaker cable*

- Peachtree GAN1 ($1400)*

* requires a RAAL amp adapter box ($700)

The Peachtree 2-channel was the second best amp I have heard with the RAAL’s, after the VM-1a. I used to say that the Peachtree was a 8.5/10 vs the VM-1a, a 10/10. However, I may have to push the GAN1 down a bit more after hearing the Star8 cable with the VM-1a. I have not heard the Star8 cable with the GAN1.

OP,

You can see my systems under my ID. I have been I proving my main system since the 1970’s I got serious about my headphone system around 2007. I improved my headphone system to the point that when I listened to my main system, I was completely disappointed. My main system was highly detailed with great slam…. But completely without warmth and musicality. I had based my headphone system on a really good Woo 300B headphone amplifier.

This was the trigger for me to fix my main system. My main system is now all Audio Research Reference components… it is simply magical… natural and musical… just like my headphone system. Sure there are soundstage differences between my headphone system and main. But they both have the same musical attraction… I can’t pull myself away… they are both so musical… I just want to keep listening.

So, my point? It is about your equipment… and for your main, venue. You can achieve the same basic sound quality and enjoyment level… but it takes work. There is nothing “innate” that makes one different from the other… it is your equipment choices. 

1+ @audioman58 , head phones are like sex with a condom. The problem is most of us can not afford the equipment that handily surpasses headphones in performance.

Isn't it all about what a person likes and their priorities? Both approaches are great and both are right. It depends on one's priorities.

The headphone fanatics love the clarity, surround, etc, stuff that they need. My max involvement in headphones is the Grado SR80. But for me - I like to "see" the magic forming in front of me in thin air between, around and away from the speakers! Your headphone system seems to be fantastic - pursue that (and if needed, upgrade). No point in spending money in a loudspeaker system, unless you can afford both.

Headphones lack impact and dynamics as in realism ,I have heard headphones like the top Star  with $7 k headphone amps like Linear tube audio which sound Fantastic , but a very good floorstander will give you goosebumps with room impacting Bass, and dynamics you can feel ,headphones  can sound great but lack That you are there physical impact.

Headphones is like doing meticulous work with reading glasses on. All pretty perfect. Large speakers in a properly treated room is like standing on a mountain top watching the sunset. Majestic!

I have used both for a long time. Headphones have good deep bass and you need full range speaker, true 20hz. The main thing speaker do better than headphones is soundstage. So it will come down to if soundstage is important to you. 

Agree with all that mlisstl

im still in the addictive phase with headphones and I have one final pair to test out - the Audeze LCD 2 planners. After that I’m finished exploring and experimenting more. 
Agree on recordings, in fact on a nice system of good cans I can’t listen to a lot of my favorite tracks if they aren’t recorded well and I find myself enjoying music that never interested me if it’s a great recording. I have a few reference tracks that I try all my headphones against and if I’m not liking what I hear on a given set of headphones with those tracks I’ll give them a pass.

Anyway, I should have my preamp in about two weeks and my room will be treated by then so I’m very curious.

Two more thoughts -- first, ever try any planar headphones?  I recently picked up a pair of Hifiman Sundaras and have been very pleased with their performance. Overall, I like them better than the Stax phones I used to have.  Note they have this model available in both closed and open back.

Second, you indicate you are "95% of the way there...."  My comment here is that you are ALWAYS at the mercy of the recording, and there is no shortage of mediocre and even poor recordings out there.  The problem is if a playback system -- phones or speakers -- "fixes" or improves a mediocre or poor recording, it is also going to mess with a good recording.   As such, even if you have an unlimited budget, there are always compromises involved in the playback gear chosen.  If you are 95% of the way to where you want to be, my advice is to stay reasonable about your expectations for further improvement. Don't spoil your enjoyment of where you are.

Thanks guys

Headphones I tried were DT770s (80 ohm) - liked them a lot for the price and bass response, DT990s, nice but I missed the bass response. Tried others but I was on a quest for “good” bass, soundstage etc etc. Had to sacrifice soundstage somewhat as I preferred the bass response from closed back cans. Jumped up from $150 to close to $2000 for Fostex TH 900. The Fostex are a bit recessed compared to the cheaper DT770s but that’s ok. Just impossible to find one pair that has everything I’m looking for but I’m at a point of just trying to get myself to be content and stop chasing something that might not exist - I’m 95% of the way there and should be happy with that.

Right now the room is echoing like crazy and I’m putting my hopes on those curtains for the three walls and probably will add more soft furnishings. Swapped the Totems out for a pair of Paradigm S2V2 i had in storage out of curiosity but with the bigger cones the bass in the room is worse. Still, I know I have a lot of work to do to get this room right but I’m loving the headphones. Still not 100% with the Fostex as they are very slightly bright for my liking but I may be able to sort that out with EQ. I have to say the DT 770s are great for the price and my personal preference. Trying all kinds of headphone amps also - yes, you can go down a rabbit hole even with headphones!

Thanks again

Agree with all

Proper corner horns are considered to be the most “headphone like” sound by most listeners due to the least amount of interaction (reflections) in the room.

I sometimes use mine in my heavily treated basement and they do sound the most like headphones to me (compared to my other loudspeakers)

I think the headphone versus speaker debate comes down to what your sound priorities are. 

Headphones tend to have a flatter listening response because their sound isn't impacted by the room. Some listening rooms can impact the response of a speaker-based system, especially with bass, by many decibels. This causes annoying augmentation and/or complete suck-out of certain frequencies and can ruin/hamper the listening experience.

By comparison, a great speaker-based system just sounds more open with appropriate imaging. I detoured a few years with headphones and could never get the same illusion of performers occupying the listening space. 

Using well-designed and implemented room treatments helps a speaker-based system sound closer to a headphone-based system in terms of response, although a world-class headphone system will always maintain the advantage.

You'll be hard-pressed to get the spaciousness of a quality speaker-based system with headphones though. That open window, 3D sound when everything is working is awesome.  

It certainly takes more resources, planning, and patience to get a speaker-based system to sing correctly. Its much much easier with headphones.     

For me, headphones versus speakers in a room are two completely different experiences. Rather like comparing a roadster to a luxury sedan -- each has their attractive qualities, but which you like better at any given moment depends on what mood you're in.

That said, it sounds like you've put a lot of effort into getting your headphone system the way you like it (though interestingly you didn't say what headphones you bought.)  Perhaps you need to put some more effort into your loudspeaker system, though I have to say Totems have never done much for me, though I know they have a following.