Grimm MU1 Streamer - Really "The Best"?

@fastfreight , @sdl4 there is a cable difference for sure, which I have thought about. I am temporarily using a very low end Cardas AES cable on the MU1 (the old green Cardas AES cable, not the current one. With my Innuos setup I have Audioquest Diamond USB cables. I did try swapping out the Diamond USB cables with generic USB cables and I still noticed the same tonal differences between Innuos and the MU1 (but the Innuos sound became inferior in other ways).

@sdl4 I agree it’s likely that both have fairly neutral measured frequency responses. Our ears are very sensitive to tiny changes in tonal balance which has a massive impact on how we perceive a piece of equipment. Maybe “smooth” is not as good as “relaxed” to describe what I perceive with Innuos vs the MU1. Because it’s all relative, the bass, upper mids and high frequencies “pop out” in a very pleasing way with Innuos, and the upper end detail is so easy to hear. Again, and the expense of the “meatier” tones of the midrange which are not as easy to hear with detail. Because of this, I think that things like electric guitars sound smoother with less texture and detail in the body of the tone. Of note this difference in tonal balance is the most profound of the differences I hear between Innuos and Grimm. The next biggest difference is the more gentle delivery of Innuos vs the more propulsive and energetic presentation of the MU1.  And lastly the smallest difference I hear is the bit of added texture, focus and detail that the MU1 offers over my Innuos setup.  But these last differences are far smaller than I originally had thought as I was getting them conflated with the tonal balance differences at first.

@lalitk , cool you met Eelco! Since he’s referenced this thread to me I would have asked him if sales of MU1’s are up because of it, just out of curiosity! You should also have asked him about the details of the next firmware release - I think you in particular would be very interested in the major new features than are coming. Eelco asked me not to share these details online since it’s still possible these features may have issues in testing.

 

@nyev  Thanks for the additional comments on the perceived midrange dip with your Innuos setup. When I think of what makes a system sound warm, I think particularly about some emphasis in how it is handling upper bass and lower mids. So if an Innuos server/streamer (like the Statement) is described as warm by a reviewer, then I don't immediately think of a dip in the lower mids. Also, when you describe your Innuos gear as sounding pleasantly smooth, I think of a lack of emphasis in the upper mids or highs to the point where brightness or harshness is de-emphasized. Associated with this smoothness may be some deemphasis of higher frequency detail, including the harmonics of instruments (like guitar) that produce their fundamental tones in the upper bass and lower mids. Having said this, I wouldn't be at all surprised if both the MU1 and the Innuos gear have a fairly flat frequency response overall, even though they don't sound exactly the same in tonal balance and soundstaging.

And speaking of tonal balance, @fastfreight makes a good point about how cables can affect the sound of any of the gear we're discussing here. There is certainly the obvious difference that Innuos uses USB to connect to a DAC, while the MU1 uses a different DAC input and a different type of cable. In my own system, I use primarily Cardas cables, which are known to support a full and rich midrange, so my system may sound a little different than yours even when I'm using much the same Innuos gear. 

 

Hello @thyname ,  there may be some designed coincidence if GTT is your dealer or distributor.  Bill Parish of GTT is a good friend of Joe Kubala, and also a big YG dealer.  Both have been to my home for delivery and set up (and checking out my train layout).  Bill always features K-S cables at his studio or at shows.  Interesting this year is that GTT is featuring Goya Speakers at Axpona with Audionet Stern and Heisenbergs, MM Tambaqui, Grimm mu1, and Kubala Sosna cables.

maybe soon there will be a coincidence with Giya loudspeakers and K-S cables?🧐. 

@fastfreight : every single YG speakers owner I know, personally or virtually online, also has Kubala Sosna cables. What a coincidence! Or is it a coincidence? I have no idea.

@nyev ​​​​@sdl4 @svenjosh good morning!

The dip  or less full frequencies is an interesting thing. A few years ago, after settling on Audience AU24sx and assembling a full loom, I upgraded my speakers. My amazing dealer delivered and set up the YG Haileys and they sounded fantastic..  They were demo’s so already broken in.  I had selected the AU24’s because of the clear airy highs.  As I was playing my favorite tracks, my dealer stopped me after Genesis ‘Fly on a Windshield’ from Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. He changed out my speaker cables only with K-S Elation and we replayed the track.  Wow. The bass coming in after the quiet hit me in the chest.  And the top end was just as clear.  This was ‘tonal balance’. Often missing low mids or upper bass lend one to hearing the highs better.  I now have all Realization or Elation.  Full natural sound.  I expect any part of the chain can be responsible for this, but cables seem to be obvious with a fleshed out system.  So, were there any cabling differences between the Grimm and Zenith set ups ??

@nyev I have Nordost Odin2 for the rest of my system so easy to borrow from my dealer. I am lucky that I live an hour away from The Cable company. You are right, Mark sent me a 1m AES but it should give me an idea. Moreover my Grimm Mu1 and DAC are in seperate racks so I am hoping the interference is minimal with 1m cable. 

@sdl4, the lower midrange dip in my Innuos gear is based purely on my subjective comparison listening to the Grimm MU1 which I also have on hand. With the MU1, sounds in this band (like guitars) are far more forward and as a result the related details are more audible than with Innuos. And with Innuos bass, upper mid and higher frequencies are more forward and pronounced. I’ve owned my Innuos gear since 2019 and had not noted this dip, until directly contrasting with the Grimm MU1 which is, at least according to pro reviewers (Christiaan at HiFi Advice for example) for what it’s worth, highly neutral. Of note Stereophile’s review of the Innuos Statement noted that it was warm. I’m curious if this is related to then frequency response profile that I perceived (to be clear my Innuos gear is not the Statement, but the combination of the Zenith Mk 2, PhoenixUSB and PhoenixNET. To be very clear, I don’t consider this to be a drawback of Innuos. In fact it’s an extremely pleasant effect (at the cost of making some of the midrange detail less audible).

@nyev  Do you have any hypotheses about why you are hearing a lower midrange dip in the frequency response of your Innuos server/streamer? Is this a dip in a measured frequency response curve or a perceived dip based on your experience with your room and other equipment? Are there any room or gear interactions that could account for it? I do not hear a midrange dip with my Innuos Zen Mk3, and I have not heard that characteristic described by other Innuos users.

“waiting to try the Sablon this weekend and Jorma next week”

@svenjosh how are you able to trial those three excellent cables in such short order? Mark at Sablon told me he couldn’t do a demo or return privileges at least with the 1.5m AES cable I had required, and I don’t believe his stuff is carried in shops. For the Jorma, where are you getting that cable from? The Cable Co?

Really looking forward to hearing the results of your testing, that is a dream selection to demo! That said I think you are tainted by starting with Odin 2 - would have been best to end with that one! :) I would put the Odin 2 in the category of “don’t listen because I won’t be happy with anything else after hearing it.” Please no more talk of “addictive air and transparency..”!!!! ;)

@quattr0 I have Holo May currently as my Dac. I was talking about AES cable not XLR. With Mogami vs Shunyata/Nordost the difference is the bass. There is just more texture, nuance and solidity, easily apparent, no need to go back and forth. 
 

 To make it easier try any good Cello recording, the inner detail, timbre and tone is easy to appreciate. I highly recommend hi-res recoding of Bach suites for solo cello, Janos Starker. It achieves a rare feat of amazing recording (live sounding) with outstanding performance. 

@nyev You are correct the odin2 retails around 12k versus the Shunyata Omega at 4.5k, but the slight increase in the air and details make a difference for me and it is addictive. I wish I did not hear any difference, would have been better for my wallet. 
 

I am still not yet decided, waiting to try the Sablon this weekend and Jorma next week. 

So I switched back over to Innuos (Zenith Mk3 + PhoenixUSB + PhoenixNET) from my MU1, yes three boxes instead of one, and have a few new insights after a day of listening, that maybe change some of my initial findings. Previously I had called the Innuos setup more open sounding, and I had said the MU1 has far more detail, among other findings as well.

These two particular findings remain valid, but I discovered the underlying reasons for them. With my Innuos setup there is a dip in the lower midrange frequencies that has now become obvious. This actually creates a sense of relaxed ease to the Innuos sound, and makes the sound seem to be more open as the upper mids and higher frequencies are more forward as a result. It also makes the lower frequencies seem to be fuller sounding as those frequencies also stand out more. While this effect creates a relaxed sound that is easy to listen to, because the lower mid frequencies are softer, these pleasing attributes come at the expense of softening the detail in this particular lower-mid frequency band. This is why I noted that electric (and other) guitars stand out more with the MU1.

The MU1 may be a hair more “precise” when it comes to eliminating any sort of bloom, and adding more texture, but my Innuos setup is surprisingly not that far off.

The biggest distinction other than the tonal balance difference I noted is just how driving and propulsive the MU1 is vs the Innuos setup which is gentle and laid back in comparison (but highly precise). I notice this effect most on how energetic the MU1 presents kick-drums and bass with a propulsive drive, vs the Innuos presentation where these elements are presented in a more gentle, relaxed manner while still being refined and precise.

Ultimately I’m still favouring the MU1, with its higher energy delivery with mostly equal performance or a hair better (with sonic presentation differences however) in a single box. Again this is prior to the fuse tweak for Innuos and prior to changing out my cables which I’m still waiting on!

 

 

@nyev the OP, 

Did you try the SR purple fuse in your Innuos Zenith Mk 3?  I say try, of course because there is zero risk.  It can be returned.

I’m very interested to hear your thoughts on it, if you try one.

At the risk of overstating the matter, I pretty much think you’ve not really heard what the Zenith can do until you have put a purple fuse in.  For context, I added the purple fuse a couple of months after adding an ENO filter and EE 8switch with a Supracat ethernet connecting the two.  So, yes, I had some enhancements.  The fuse was and still is difficult to believe….for what it did.  To avoid…”jaw dropping” I’ll say that it will make you shake your head in incredulity.

Kidding aside, it is the biggest no-brainer among some very nice, high-value tweaks I’ve been lucky enough to discover.

And just to disclose the latest, I moved to the NA Muon filter and a NA ethernet cable to replace the Supacat 8.

Plan to add another purple or SR Master somewhere else in the system.

quattr0,

If your dealer is in Dallas, then, yes, that would be me. I took the MU1 out of my system and put the N20 back in. Love the N20 but the Grimm just works so much better with my system so I had to put it back in and buy it. The dealer was gracious enough to let me purchase the demo unit.

@svenjosh what kind of DAC do you have? I've tried Shunyata, Audience, Transparent XLR and can't tell any difference fr Mogami. I have Weiss 501 DAC and SabrinaX.

@nadimjaber the dealer told me mu1 is best w aes.

Just ordered mu1 also. Will be here first week of May hopefully. The dealer also shared one of his clients decided to keep MU1. He had N20. Not sure if he's on here.

Thank you for starting this thread @nyev 

 

@svenjosh not surprised the Odin 2 is better than the Omega. Isn’t it an order of magnitude more expensive than the Shunyata, if I’m not mistaken? I think anything from the Odin 2 loom is going to be near “the best”.  Thanks for sharing your findings.

I once tested a Valhalla 2 USB and found it was definitely better than my Audioquest Diamond. But the difference to me was small and maybe worth half the asking price, and I ultimately felt I enjoyed the sound from the far less expensive Diamond just as much.

Very interested to see if you think the lower cost Sablon beats the Omega though, as a few have found this to be the case. I noticed there is a used 1m Sablon currently for sale. However after my experience finding a 2m Valhalla 2 USB cable sounding far, far better than a 1m equivalent, I started heeding Nordost’s guidance for minimum cable lengths. They say digital cables should be a minimum of 1.5m. I might have sprung for the used Sablon if it was 1.5m.

@peter_s Agree with @nyev, There is no difference between fixed volume control and using Mu1 volume control.

There is a difference between AES cables that is easy to hear when you go back and forth. But the difference is not as significant as other interconnect cables. I have the Mogami and it sounds good until you try higher end cables. I used the Shunyata Omega extensively and it was clearly superior to the Mogami. I am now trying the Nordost Odin 2. This is better than Shunyata especially the textures and inner detail but more subtle difference. I am going to try the Sablon next.

Fyi, you get the same benefit using the Spdif instead of AES cable. No difference at all (between Nordost Odin 2 Spdif and AES) using 1.5m cable length. I tried my 2.5m SPDIF and immediately found it to be inferior to the AES cable so I think they  sound the same for 1.5-2m and shorter but anything long, the AES cable comes on top. 

Has anyone tried the Mu1 with Bricasti M1se?

@peter_s I found that a high quality aes/ebu cable was a worthwhile investment but it isn’t night and day “a veil was removed and my wife walked in and asked what changed” kind of improvement. It matters but its the last thing to address rather than the first.

How important is the quality of the AES cable, for connecting the MU1 to the DAC (which in my case is a Holo May Kitsune Edition)?

Pictures here!

Note I plan to do something more elegant about the TV at some point.  Will also be getting floor to ceiling acoustic panels for behind my speakers soon.  If the MU1’s screen looks funny it’s because I’ve not removed the cellophane screen protector yet!

My three Innuos boxes are on the top shelf with my Diablo.  Hard to believe that the single, very lightweight MU1 can replace the three Innuos boxes (and corresponding cables) and at the same time sound even better, at less overall cost….

The Rubicon is VERY, VERY good…in some systems, the Muon setups might be redundant .

I believe that NA have mentioned, and maybe in this thread, that they will be releasing a switch in June. Combine that with the Muon Pro and streaming cable  and that should be really good. I say that based on the fact that @grannyring has the now discontinued NA Rubicon switch and had very favorable reviews on it. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

Yes, my previous post is off topic, deleted.

@jetter I agree they look like some cheap crap from alibaba. I can say the same about fuses also :)

The QSA plug came with a 30-day return privilege. I was fully expecting to send it back if it didn't work. But decided to keep it. Another member, @willgolf tried their plug (I think a higher end model) and was very pleased with the results. 

Anyways, I'm going to shut up now and let nyev focus on the primary topic :)

“I use fixed volume on the MU1 and the Tambaqui and control volume with my preamp.  Best this way I think.”

@fastfreight , that is how I have it configured too.  That said, I tried flipping back and forth between fixed vs variable volume and I couldn’t detect any difference whatsoever.

I use fixed volume on the MU1 and the Tambaqui and control volume with my preamp.  Best this way I think.

I have found the MUON pro sounds better than Eno, and it is a 1GB device vs 100 MB for Eno.   The Eno had issues with one of my streamers but the Muon does not. Rather one of my streamers had issues with the Eno …. The Aries G2.1.

@nyev  check out page 11 of the software manual.

@grannyring Thank you for sharing your perspective. Later this year, I was planning to add either an audiophile-grade network switch to my system or a better passive filter. Eventually, I might end up doing both but wanted to take it slow. Given the positive results I have had from ENO, I’m tempted to put the Muon Pro ahead of the switch ... at least for this year.

BTW, another product that had a positive impact on my system performance was the QSA Red jitter plug/conditioner. I was told that it was a better substitute for a fuse and required less messing around with the equipment. It had a similar affect as the ENO, i.e. it made the system more calm (less digital?) and more listenable for longer periods. It's one of the products where you think the improvement is subtle, but when you remove it from the chain you realize you can't really do without.

I will look into the Muon Pro. Thank you for the recommendation.

@arafiq

I have owned all three NA Ethernet product ranges and can confidently tell you the Pro delivers much more sonically. I like the ENO products as they certainly improve the sound quality of a streaming front end. The Pro makes the ENO sound a tad dull in comparison. Not that the ENO is dull as it is not. However, the Pro brings a level of resolution, space and realism that is very, very special in my system.

@peter_s I do not hear a difference when using fixed vs variable volume on the MU1.  But that said I’ve been using it with the volume control disabled.  I’m going to look up that statement you referenced in the manual - what page/section is it in?

Hello everyone, the first thing is to congratulate everyone who has participated, this is one of the best posts I have read in this forum. I also have the Innuos Zenith MK3 + Phoenix USB combo, I use the Esoteric K01XD as DAC. I use Roon (mostly) and Sense as streaming software. Not long ago, I did some tests to see the behavior of the sound in Roon, placing a Roon Ready to act as a bridge between my Innuos combo and the Esoteric Dac. From those tests, the conclusion I've come to is that a good streamer bridging can go a long way in SQ quality. The best result was when putting as Roon Ready an Esoteric N05 (previous model) and connected by coaxial to my DAC. For this reason, I have been looking at the options for a good streamer, including the N05, or the Hifi Rose 150, the Metronome DSS 2, and in that order of things I found the Grimm Audio MU1. That is a brand that has caught my attention for its good reputation in synchronization cloks.

That's why I was wondering how the coaxial output of the MU is, if it's as good as AES. The idea of ​​a MU1 would also be due to its SQ quality for removing two devices from the system, which is why I am concerned about the comments about the need to place an ethernet filter/recloker before the Grimm.

@peter_s My Grimm dealer believes that the best way to feed the Grimm is a high-end CD transport. Of course that's not the typical use case and would defeat the goal for many folks.

Can't answer definitively, but I'd analogize it to DAC pairings. I've used the Grimm with budget ($1k range) DACs and the Grimm made them sound like $5-7k DACs...but I still prefer the Grimm with the "best" (for my taste) DAC possible.

Also… in reading the manual for the MU1, I noticed that they state that you must use the variable volume control, and that they recommend not using a fixed volume level. I am interested in how that does not reduce the quality of the digital signal. Can anyone chime in about that?

I am curious about the digital inputs on the MU1. I have a Cambridge, audio cd transport, which is not a high ranking transport by any means. In my fantasy… If I feed the MU1 digital input from the CD transport, it would be as good as any transport, and I would not need to buy a high end transport. is there any reason to believe that the MU1would be agnostic about CD transports and they would all sound the same? 

@grannyring I currently have the Eno AG filter in my system. I think you also owned one before. In your opinion, is the Muon Pro a noticeable upgrade over the original Eno? Nyev, sorry I hope I'm not hijacking your thread :)

@grannyring 

Thanks for the insight and observations. The Muon Pro is definitely on my radar.

@grannyring , thanks, I’ve seen that link from Innuos and am clear what to get; I’m more wondering what to try for my other stuff (one at a time though). I can guess it may be hard to get Gryphon to provide a recommendation of a aftermarket fuse for my Diablo amp, as I’m fairly certain they will just say not to do that. Could be the same with Mola Mola and Grimm too.

Great to see this thread generating some awareness of the MU1 and also now the Muon filter too!

I’m planning to switch back to my Innuos gear this weekend, for the sake of comparing and contrasting. I have to say that even if I end up preferring the MU1, which I expect will be the case (pending the expected positive impact of the Purple Fuse on my Zenith which may change things?), my overall opinion of Innuos has only increased, as I now have an understanding of what the three Innuos boxes do very well together. Before, I had no perspective other than the Mac Mini I was using earlier than 2019.

I have a soft spot for Innuos now that I didn’t have before. The sound is wide open, super-relaxed, highly dimensional with upper mids and high frequencies “popping out” holographically, with an emphasis on lower end fullness and upper mids and high frequencies. Altogether it’s a very welcoming and easy to listen to sound. In many ways the MU1 is a bit of the inverse - pace seems faster, more snap and solidity to the sound, more texture, more detail, more clarity, more precision, more focus, and absolutely no bloom. The MU1 is far more “to the point”.  Ultimately through cabling, the Muon filter, and a bit of other tweakery I am aiming to get a bit of the Innuos’ fullness and enveloping dimensionality in the MU1 along side all of its excellent qualities. But we’ll see what that Purple Fuse does with the Innuos Zenith!l Mk3!  As an aside, it occurred to me that how I have described the Innuos sound is similar to how I’ve seen others describe the Antipodes K50.  That makes me very curious as to how the K50 would compare.  But unfortunately I don’t think I’ll get to go that far with this particular journey, as much as I’d like to!  If I had a trusted friend with a K50 I’d offer to swap with the MU1 for a a few weeks.  Sadly I have no such friend with a K50!

In comparison I found the Aurender N20 to be “closed in” sounding on the top end - ultimately I was a bit disappointed in the N20 but that is probably just my system/room/ears. I know a lot of people love the N20. I do recall it had an insane degree of tonal density and saturation which made the sound very tangible, as well as this inky blackness effect which I would compare to the effect of conditioners. So it definitely had some great qualities. I know I may have loved it with the addition of a master clock, as it’s one of the few streamers that have a clock input. But for me it was hard to go down that path when I couldn’t figure out a way to be happy with its “base” sound.

 

 

@nyev 

 

This Innuos link tells you all you need to do with the Purple fuse. It won’t blow.  No worries. 
 

https://innuos.com/kb/replacing-the-fuse-on-innuos-products/

@nyev I would reach out to respective manufacturers for their recommendations on appropriate fuses to upgrade. In my personal experience, whenever the fuse is part if the main circuit there is an appreciable improvement in sound. I would replace one component at a time and wait for it to settle down before upgrading the next one. 

@lalitk Thank you for the tip, I am ordering the Muon Ethernet cable and filter! I am sure it is going to be an upgrade for my system, if not with 30 day returns, I have nothing to lose.

@peter_s You can use Grimm as Roon Core and connect multiple endpoints as long as they are on the same network. But you also will be asked to sign off your Nuc or get another Roon license. Obviously this has nothing to do with Grimm but required by Roon. Roon requires a license for each core. So in essence you should be ready to transfer your music to Grimm. 

@peter_s The Grimm can serve to multiple endpoints. No need (in fact you shouldn't -- it would confuse the computers!) to have a NUC and Grimm on the same network.

Nyev,

I agree, I love how Roon pulls up "like" songs and plays them!  

Before my current gear I had a Diablo 300 as well...I loved that integrated amp and I can see how the Grimm work work very well with it.   Enjoy!

I am thinking about getting an MU1 but have a question. I currently have three roon endpoints running in my house, and they are all connected to an NUC roon server. If I install the MU1as a Roon server for my main system, would it be the server for the other two endpoints? Or would I need to maintain the NUC as a second, parallel Roon server?

Thanks all for the guidance on the Muon filter and also on fuses.

My dealer said they’d get a quote on the Purple fuse for my Zenith, but I haven’t heard back.  I’ll give them a nudge. 

I’d like to try adding Purple fuses to my Diablo amp, Tambaqui, and even the MU1 as well, eventually.  What is the general guideline for what fuse specs to choose?  I know there is a lot of info on this on the boards already but I also don’t want to be the guy that keeps blowing very expensive fuses (or alternatively damaging my gear)…  I think the MU1 uses a fast-blow fuse.  Does that mean I should pick a fast-blow?  What about the current rating - how much higher should it be than the default fuse installed in the component?

 

+1, @grannyring on SR Purple Fuse with Innuos and NA Filter. I have been using a different fuse but case in point, aftermarket fuses does impact the sound favorably in most cases.