Grimm MU1 Streamer - Really "The Best"?

@lalitk , absolutely, will do!  As the unit has only been used two months, and inactive for the past while packed in a box, it may not even be fully burned in yet.  Thinking of coordinating trials of Audioquest Diamond, Shunyata Sigma, and Sablon AES demos.  I should get on that now as it often takes weeks before I see demo cables.  I might check the used market to see what is out there.  For USB all I have now is the Audioquest Diamond, and the only other I’ve tried at the extreme end of the price spectrum is the Nordost Valhalla 2 - which was truly great but for me not worth the premium over the Diamond.

Very curious to see how the N20 sounds compared to Innuos Zenith MK3 + PhoenixUSB.  I almost don’t want to know but I will see how the PhoenixUSB sounds with the N20.  I am crossing my fingers that it sounds the same or worse with the Reclocker and I can sell the PhoenixUSB as planned!  Which will also be doable if AES ends up being the way to go.

@nyev 

congratulations on your purchase of N20! Once you get N20, let it settle down in your system for at least 72 hours, compare both USB and AES with good cables and post your findings. 

Just an update, I went through with the purchase of the Aurender N20 (mint, two months old as the seller upgraded to the N30, which his system definitely deserves…).

Even if it sounds equally good as my Zenith Mk3 + PhoenixUSB that will be a win, as my objective was to reduce boxes and cables. Hoping it will sound better though. That said I will list it in a few months and follow through with my plan, as I’m interested in the K50 and finally the MU1 as well. I may lose a bit of cash in the process but it’s worth trying these well respected machines.

Update: I keep forgetting to mention the upcoming Innuos Pulsar as well. I guess finding out how the other side of the fence sounds is intriguing. But the Pulsar could be a profoundly good product with it’s fancy power supply (sounds similar to Statement Nextgen PSU) and included PhoenixUSB Lite. That said I just recently started noticing how much better the files sound played from my Zenith Mk3, so local file support is an option I think I will want to keep, unless the Pulsar is so good at streaming it actually succeeds in removing the need for local file storage altogether. But, no one actually knows how good it is yet.  The Statement Next Gen is supposed to be way ahead of the regular Statement according to those that heard it or have it, which could mean great things for the Pulsar if it shares aspects of the power supply design.

@dabel

Thanks for updating me on Steve. Hope he is doing well and will pursue his plans; I'd bet it'll really benefit the industry if he does.

“Turns out the seller of the N20 is a longtime poster here”
@nyev 

Even better!

Turns out the seller of the N20 is a longtime poster here (over 20 years), so that adds a lot of comfort!  I’ve read his posts before.  He mentions the N20 and his email address in old posts (I guess before they had filters for email addresses :)

Thinking I will proceed with the N20.

@lalitk , I actually made use of CC protection when a car dealer ripped me off once.  They were able to apply a “chargeback” as I had the evidence.  

In the case of PayPal, the seller doesn’t charge my credit card, rather, PayPal does.  So for PayPal Friends and Family, CC companies apply the chargeback to PayPal in cases of non-delivery?  I want to be comfortable with buying the N20 using my CC through PayPal F&F, but don’t want a sense of false security.

Sorry for taking this thread temporarily off the rails!

“Does paying by CC really add protection? How can you prove to the CC company that you never received the goods?”

@nyev

Yes, all major credit cards offers purchase protection. Much better than PayPal. Your delivery confirmation or lack of + any correspondence with seller is a proof for your CC company. BTW, my last few sales of $10K plus were all wire transfers. Ask this seller if he will accept wire transfer.

@phastm3, I’ve heard some who agree with you for sure on the Gryphon DAC. Others say it stands up to equivalent and higher priced standalone DACs and is well served by seamless integration with the amp.

I’m guessing you may be right however based on the DAC’s you mentioned. That said, I’m a cable guy and I’d need to invest a lot in the interconnect and power cable for the standalone DAC, plus I’m wanting to consolidate my box’s and more importantly my cables.

Refusing to accept escrow and insisting on PP Friends and Family are both huge red flags. I'd walk away from this guy in a heartbeat.

@lalitk I’m buying used as I plan to resell and experience multiple products living with each for a few months.  The K50 for example is known the change significantly over many months of run time, mainly due to its power supply I’ve heard (3 or more months).  Often I find with demos, the dealer sends me a brand new unit that I simply pay for and keep if I like it.  I’d rather take my time and not be rushed.  It’s always stressful (for me at least) not knowing if a piece will work out, your home demo time running out, and having to call the dealer to send it back.  Often a few weeks is not enough to discover the one tweak that makes the piece click with your system.  I find adding a new piece can expose other issues in your system that you have to work out.  The biggest instance of that is when I added Nordost Valhalla 2 speaker cables.  OMG did that send me on a journey due to exposed issues, which is ongoing but I feel is very near resolved.

Does paying by CC really add protection?  How can you prove to the CC company that you never received the goods?

I’ve owned the Gryphon Diablo300 with the built in Dac. Spending $2-$4k on a used dac will give you much better results with any streamer you end up getting. The Musetec, Holo May, Denafrips Terminator2 or +, $3k Audio mirror will outperform that Gryphon Dac. 

@nyev 

I believe you can still use CC via F&F. When you go through the payment options via F&F, the steps prompt you if you want protection (CC) or skip protection (bank transfer). Not sure why you’re buying used…is there no dealer in your area that will allow in-home audition?  

In any case, start with K-50 if that’s more convenient. Does K-50 comes with return privileges? 

@lordmelton I could pay with my CC but the N20 seller said they would only use PayPal Friends and Family, so there are no fees for me to suck up and pay for added protection (and no added protection for me beyond my CC).  The MU1 seller  accepts bank wire only so I think too risky…

Maybe I’m headed for the K50.

Only pay with your credit card and swallow the Paypal fees or ask him to pay half.

IDs mean Jack.

I made an offer on the Aurender N20, but the seller did not want to use escrow (which I understand) OR PayPal Goods and Services. PayPal for Friends was his only PayPal option, I guess he wants to get the cash prior to shipping. Seller has a fair number of positive reviews over the past two years, with comments, but in theory that would be possible to have fake reviews.

I don’t know about everyone else, but that seems like a lot of money to send to a stranger with no protection beyond a few positive reviews - at least beyond the amount that I could stomach if I were to be scammed. The seller is someone you can find online without is an owner of a business serving the public, but who’s to say they are that person. I suppose I could ask them for a photo of their ID which would help somewhat but still….

The MU1 seller has similar restrictions.

Am I being overly cautious? How frequently do people get scammed dealing with sellers that have more than a few positive reviews in the past two years?

The K50 is through a reputable dealer so that remains an option. I wouldn’t need those protections with a dealer…. With the K50 my only real concern is how good my Gryphon Diablo DAC module’s AES input is, in comparison with its USB input which is very good. But if it doesn’t work out, I can always sell and lose little or no money since it’s used.

@lalitk +1M

@nyev At this level, price has very little to do with anything. Example, the N20 is 95% as good in SQ as the N30, for half the price. The N30, Taiko and K50 are all favoured interchangeably.

@sns and myself both swear by the Musetec 005 DAC which is a $3200 DAC but will challenge anything you put up against it. We're not cheap, we have confidence in our hearing, regardless of price tags.

Be happy that the N20 is the least expensive option, move on if if you don't like it but you probably won't.

Good Luck anyways.

@sns , nice thought but the Phoenix doesn’t have an Ethernet input unfortunately! Just a USB input. Also, I’m trying to consolidate to one box and one set of cables for my player/server, as good as the PhoenixUSB is. Plus I plan to sell the PhoenixUSB to help fund this purchase!

That said I’m still interested in the K50!

Update:  oh you mean ADD the new box as a server only which means I’d have THREE boxes!  I’m trying to consolidate, so no, not going to work for me.

In thinking this out more. If I had top flight usb rendering via Phoenix or others, nice usb on dac and looking at three streamers mentioned here I'd go with K50, which was my plan. With k50, assuming top flight usb in streamer/dac you have the dedicated ethernet port out direct to Phoenix or other usb streamer. I believe this direct out ethernet port in K50 has some optimization, meaning filtering/clocking? So k50 ethernet port out to Phoenix to dac, shazam, top flight usb! And then you still have the optimized AES/EBU port on k50 to play with, this may play out to be better than optimized usb, two for one optimized setujps!

 A lot of this is apples to oranges comparisons, best ports on streamers and dacs make direct comparisons impossible. One should purchase dac and streamer as a package, decide in advance which scheme they're going with, AES/EBU, USB or I2S, both dac and streamer should be optimized for that scheme. I'll reiterate usb most difficult/expensive to optimize, has more inherent disadvantages, usb can have extremely high sound quality, gets bad name from less than optimal implementation in both streamers and dacs.

In question above as to how N20 would compare to Zenith and Phoenix. I'd keep Zenith + Phoenix vs N20, K50 and MU1 IF STAYING WITH USB. Now, if changing rendering schemes anything goes. USB is capable of wonderful rendering, Phoenix is one example of that. Now, is that Phoenix going into dac with optimized usb board, that being XMOS or Amanero, perhaps some proprietary board. If that is the case one isn't going to do much better using another rendering scheme. Assuming the Phoenix going into dac with great usb implementation, there still may be gains to be had with a better streamer serving only server duty. In other words Zenith II may be bettered with newer Zenith or some other streamer.

Point I'm trying to make above. Streaming sound quality can also be improved through better streamer acting ONLY as SERVER.  Lets say one already has optimized usb rendering via Phoenix or another dedicated usb streamer only, assume optimized usb implementation in dac. One can still achieve better sound quality with higher quality streamer, and NOT USING IT'S RENDERING CAPABILITY.  Improved noise suppression, music player processing  ALONE can make substantial improvements in sound quality. I know this from my own experiments with multiple rendering schemes VIA USB.

I have no experience with I2S and coax rendering so above may or may not apply. At one point  thought I'd experiment with I2S via DDC, in the end made no sense considering extra complexity, limitations of DDC equipment itself and less than optimal I2S implementation in  dac.

Since the N20 is the lowest priced option, would it still be a higher class than my current Zenith Mk 2 + PhoenixUSB?  I’m pretty sure the K50 and MU1 must be

Nothing but speculation and assumptions. Follow your plan to listen to all 3 of them. They’re all quite worthy. for all you know you may find the Aurender N20 your favorite.

Charles

@pokey77 

Retirement is drawing near for Steve, and some of his tech he plans to pitch.

@lalitk , thanks and yes, I did read the last paragraph.  I guess I’m wasn’t really focusing on future-proofing as I have no desire to switch my Diablo and DAC module, which doesn’t allow for such integrations.  But it’s a good point as who knows what will happen years down the road…. Adding a master clock sounds intriguing but right now I want to reduce my devices and cabling!  And I just hate the fact that regardless of the device, premium power and signal cords ALWAYS make a difference, regardless of what the device is….  I suppose my objective now is to get the best sound I can with a one box player/server solution, with my integrated amp and DAC module.  But yeah your point is a good one still.

“Aurender you can only use their Conductor app”

@nyev

As a long time user of Conductor app and ROON (18+ months), this would not be a source of your dissatisfaction with Aurender. The Conductor UI is not as layered or advance as ROON but it’s very intuitive and robust, both streaming from cloud based services or local files. Most importantly, conductor app renders your files faithfully, zero tempering with resolution. I’m not sure you read last paragraph in my previous post. That’s a very important consideration as it pretty much future proof your purchase should you choose to upgrade your DAC.

@lalitk thanks for this.  Very helpful advice.  Looking forward to trying some cable options, whichever way I go.  

I guess all options have limitations of sorts.  Innuos has no AES (except new Pulse line which may signal a general change for future products), Aurender you can only use their Conductor app, Antipodes has superior AES implementation to USB, etc.  for me, the player app doesn’t matter as long as it doesn’t totally suck.  Yeah I love Roon and it’s radio mode but sound comes first for me.  I still find the Innuos Sense app is glitchy, with tracks sometimes not wanting to start when I play them or skip forward into the track.  But it still sounds better than Roon+Squeeze on my Innuos stuff so I use it.
 

Since the N20 is the lowest priced option, would it still be a higher class than my current Zenith Mk 2 + PhoenixUSB?  I’m pretty sure the K50 and MU1 must be.  Pretty sure I read a couple of posts a while back on other forums from guys who made the same jump to the N20 and found it was a big lift in sound.

“I’ve yet to find a dealers/salesperson who doesn’t let their biases get in the way of getting great advice”
@nyev

I know it’s a rarity but they do exists. I have been very fortunate to work with few dealers that are audio enthusiast at heart. They are driven by their passion to help others in putting together great sounding systems.

Back to your query, Is AES better than USB? The answer lies within the implementation of these protocols between the two components, your DAC and streamer. IME, N20 implementation on all of its available outputs is simply stellar and uncompromising. And I expect the same from your Gryphon DAC. What you end up preferring is squarely depends on the quality of USB or AES cables. YES, the cable between the two components is going to matter a lot. I have extensively compared the USB & AES between my components and they both sounded stellar with N20 as a source.

My advice to you, don’t buy a component that limits your options. Why spend top dollars and limit yourself to AES and 24bit/192kHz file resolution (MU1) or K50, that may sound better with AES but not USB. At the end of the day, listen and access what’s sounds best in your system.

As far cabling goes, sky is the limit. Shunyata, Harmonix, Acrolink and Sablon gets my vote for AES. For USB, Network Acoustics USB III, TCHERNOV, Kimber Hybrid are the among best I’ve heard.

Here is another important consideration that doesn’t get mentioned here. Aurender is been at their game longer than anyone else. They offer seamless integration (via Conductor app) with some of the top DAC’s. This integration includes Master Clock sync and advanced Network like RAVENNA. Also eliminates the need for AES, SPDIF or USB cabling. MSB and Merging are two I know of, I am sure there are more.

@nyev 

Your post at 01-13-2023 at 12:19am discusses USB cable length.

Steve Nugent of Empircal Audio, aka Audioengr here on A'gon, used to discuss the USB cable length question as it was often brought up. He has been around for some time, but haven't seen him post in a while either. But he often noted that USB cables shorter than 1.5 meters caused reflections (I think also mentioned in this thread) on the cable and so it was best that either the cable be very very short or 1.5+ meters in length to avoid reflections. That is the best that I can explain it, but Steve is very well respected, and he also builds some very impressive audio gear. His forum "Empiral Audio Forum" can be found on Audio Circle and you can also look up his website of the same name. I assume you'll find much more clear and concise information on this topic there.

I've heard several of Steve's systems at the Newport show and they were really really good, so that makes me give significant weight to what he says.

I've been enjoying following along with this thread, some great posters providing a lot of insight in here.

One thing that may be of value is that if you might consider adding a master clock in the future, that may be a feature that you'd want your streamer/server to allow.

@lalitk , yeah of course I get that the dealer is biased :) I didn’t spell it out as it was obvious. Unfortunately I’ve yet to find a dealers/salesperson who doesn’t let their biases get in the way of getting great advice. I know there are some out there, based on accounts of others, but unfortunately I’ve yet to meet them. The best sort that I’ve encountered are the ones who are glad to help you and don’t seem motivated to make a sale. But these guys rarely give advice and when they do it’s biased to their gear.

Is the consensus here that AES will likely sound better than USB on all three devices? Need to budget for a good cable too. Of course the MU1 needs it to utilize its upsampling, and everyone seems to say it’s the best with the K50. What about the N20 - would AES connecting to my Gryphon Diablo 300 DAC module likely be better than USB as well?

My local dealer can get demos of Shunyata and Audioquest cables. Thinking of trialing a Sigma and Diamond AES from those respective vendors. I’ve also heard great things about the Sablon AES cable which I believe is in the same price range.

At some point I’d want to try the Shunyata Omega and the Nordost Valhalla V2 cables, which I have heard great things about, and I expect these cables to both sound great in quite different manners. But I don’t want to spend that much on an AES cable quite yet. The Sigma/Diamond/Sablon is the class I’ll be looking at now.

@lalitk I am totally against negative selling in the manor that @audiotroy goes about it. If you have valid, verifiable and repeatable testing data then provide it. Make your case. Video your blind tests and put them on YouTube like many other dealers and distributors do. Kevin Deal comes to mind in the early PL days. 
 

Do not make unverifiable blanket bs statements just to generate interest. I know this is a more sophisticated audience/clientele that is not buying into his hyperbole. 

He may be a very good dealer but I will never patronize is establishment. 

@jerryg123 

I take dealer advice with a pinch of salt. The overzealous approach in shilling their product lines put to test when they are unable to provide a product for in-house demo. 

@lordmelton,

I do own a K50 and does not require user driver downloads.   Software updating is managed by Antipodes.  Antipodes sends updates overnight via network to units that are left On, and if unit is turned Off, will receive updates when left On overnight.  There is a web interface where users configure their units for server and player.  This interface also notifies users if software is available for update.  If a user has issue in the updating process or other issue, an online session with Antipodes can be booked with you for Antipodes to access your system with you via AnyDesk.  When I purchased my unit approximately 1-1/2 years ago, I had issues configuring Roon correctly for music storage and also had issues with Roon backup.   These were not Antipodes issues per se, but Antipodes resolved for me via online booking appointment.

““the N20 is inferior to the K50”

@nyev 

You do realize dealer bias is in play since he sells K50. All of your choices under consideration are excellent choices. It’s going to comes which of these streamer sounds best within your system. If your prefer AES/EBU, N20, MU1 and Pulsar should be on top of your list. 

@nyev Since my final decision for a plug n play streamer was going to be the K50, obviously that would be my choice.

I decided on K50 based on several factors. While I don't find the k50 usb rendering to be among the best, neither is any Aurender offering, even the W20SE isn't up to the best. This usb issue in virtually every single box plug n play streamer is what led me to custom build. Compare top flight usb solutions such as Innuous Phoenix usb or JCAT USB XE, even Sonore OpticalRendu. Three I mention have very nice dedicated power supplies and best clocks. Check out the usb solutions in vast majority of plug n play, you won't see same level of power supply and in most cases, clock. Vast majority have usb clock and ps coming off motherboard, a few have half hearted attempts for ps, perhaps with nice clock.

So, assuming usb less than optimal in all three streamers mentioned above, other ports in each will be optimal. I like the K50 for it's AES/EBU, much easier optimization in both streamers and dac, and many nice reviews using this port. The other thing that sets K50 apart from the others, and was important to me, is the second ethernet port offered, something none of the others offered. This dedicated ethernet is dedicated OUT port for DIRECT connection to either dedicated outboard streamer which will take care of usb issue, or connect to streaming dac, makes it more versatile piece. One can eliminate the need to detour through a switch with this second port, this assumes most direct route is best.  I also like Antipodes take on ps, using both lps and smp based on particular needs. I'm Roon guy as well.

@nyev The N20 and MU1 are more or less set and forget units whereas I believe the K50 may require driver downloads etc., like the Taiko.

I really don't want to get involved in setting dozens of parameters.

Buying used you won't lose money on either.

@lordmelton , good idea! However one of the sellers is a dealer. They responded to my email (where I noted the products I was interested in) that “the N20 is inferior to the K50” (He was the seller of the K50). I suspect “inferior” is too strong a word but I do think the K50 may possibly be in a slightly higher class than the N20, at a higher price of course.  

@nyev Why don't you phone or email the sellers and see if that helps.

They, of course have first hand experience and are not reviewers.

Good Luck!

@ghasley 

@lordmelton Again, I have no affiliation with the seller of the MU! Nor should  @nyev purchase anything he isnt ready to purchase. With that said, your pricing data is a bit dated as well as the supply chain/availability is quite a bit different today. It is my understanding that availability is ZERO. You might want to call a dealer to see if the rumor aligns with the facts. Next up would be to determine what a MU1 with the 8tb ssd and double the ram at 8gb is worth.

I believe your comment should be addressed to @metaldetektor 

“It’s up to you”. They are all great options, can’t decide, lol…. Maybe I will negotiate with all three and let the best result be the decider.

On the other hand this could be my only opportunity to “trial” a MU1 without purchasing a new one. I was thinking that I would try a used N20, then a K50, and then see if a dealer (located across continent and in a different country) would loan me a demo MU1. What are the odds of a dealer agreeing to send a demo, knowing that there are just a small number of Grimm dealers in the US? If there is a good chance this won’t be possible, maybe that should be the deciding factor and just get the MU1.

@ghasley good point on the recession. I may end up needing live with whichever I choose first longer than anticipated given the pending recession, with fewer buyers out there. I think there will be more units for sale not only because some people overspent, but also simply because there will be fewer people buying.  Thankfully I will have the proceeds from the sale of my Innuos Zenith mk3 (2TB), PhoenixUSB Reclocker, Two Audioquest Diamond USB cords, and one Audioquest Hurricane Source cable to help offset this purchase.  That said I’ll need to buy a decent AES cable.

@grannyring

The 100mbps ports on the Rubicon and the 100mbps through the Muon to the MU1 the affect is negligible. Makes total sense that a gigabit version is in the wings. In fact, Im going to have to try my MU1 on the gigabit ports of the switch.

I am traveling but I will try my MU1 into the gigabit port of the Rubicon when I get back as well as I will see about possibly demoing the Muon Pro. I just found out yesterday that Network Acoustics added a MU1 to their demo system. peace.

@lordmelton Again, I have no affiliation with the seller of the MU! Nor should  @nyev purchase anything he isnt ready to purchase. With that said, your pricing data is a bit dated as well as the supply chain/availability is quite a bit different today. It is my understanding that availability is ZERO. You might want to call a dealer to see if the rumor aligns with the facts. Next up would be to determine what a MU1 with the 8tb ssd and double the ram at 8gb is worth.

MU1’s dont turn up that often on the used market so its your call. I also believe q1 will be when most Americans begin to feel the recession that we have already been in for a couple of months. That usually frees up some used units from those who overspent in the recent past.

Given that stated scenario I would begin with the Aurender N20. Very good reputation, less expensive option and due to its popularity shouldn’t be hard to re-sell if necessary. 2nd choice, MU-1 due to undeniable intrigue (Even with the minor cosmetic flaw).

Charles

So with my plan to buy used and live with a K50, a MU1, and possibly a N20 for a few months, I now have options to start with any of the above.

The N20 and K50 are in mint condition but the MU1 has a scratch on the rear corner that you can only see from the rear.

Knowing I plan to sell and move on to another, any votes on which I should start with?  The N20 is the lowest cost as expected.  And the scratch on the MU1 seems like it might affect my ability to resell, not sure….

@lalitk 

I have gotten feedback from other users that new Muon Pro ahead of MU1 is quite effective and it really lifts its game. It appears MU1 requires a Gigabit Ethernet so Muon Pro makes sense. It’s worth pointing out, Hans Beekhuyzen feedback on Muon with MU1 was based on standard Muon 100Mb version not the Pro version

That explanation makes perfect sense. 

Charles

@lordmelton You are right I agree my system is set up to be revealing. But I am attempting to get to a sound that is both romantic and revealing. I find that the Gryphon and it’s DAC help achieve that, with a richer sound and a seductive midrange. So I guess the philosophy of my system is to design it around a somewhat romantic “heart” (amp, DAC), with cabling that is as revealing as possible without changing the sound of my gear. Arguably my Nordost Valhalla 2 speaker cables add something of their own, but not tonally (quick with slight leading edge emphasis). The Valhalla 2 power cords seemed to attenuate bass with my Gryphon (my dealer said someone else also made the same complaint with Valhalla 2 power cords and Gryphon), so I went with the Dragon (after also trying the Shunyata Omega cord which I found to be great but definitely overly romantic).

I’m torn on the used MU1 for sale (thanks for reporting this!). My plan is to try several players/servers before buying a new one, which means I will need to sell each. I don’t mind if I lose some cash in the process provided I get the majority back when I sell each piece (I know it can take time to sell; I’ve sold gear before). But this particular MU1 has a scratch, albeit on one of the back corners. So I’m not sure if I might have a problem selling it. There is an N20 and a K50 that are “mint” for sale now.  Debating on which to jump on.  But the MU1 is definitely not a piece that comes up on the used market often, as I doubt there are as many out there as there are other players/servers.  Good to have choices!

I see. Thanks @lalitk ! The new Pro version is not yet on the Network Acoustics site. I did watch the review by Hans. 

@grannyring

I have gotten feedback from other users that new Muon Pro ahead of MU1 is quite effective and it really lifts its game. It appears MU1 requires a Gigabit Ethernet so Muon Pro makes sense. It’s worth pointing out, Hans Beekhuyzen feedback on Muon with MU1 was based on standard Muon 100Mb version not the Pro version.

@ghasley

So no real need for the switch or Muon boxes? Just go from modem/router right into the Grimm and dispense with Muon and Aphile switch? Just a decent ethernet cable. You suggest these additional attempts to reduce noise and reclock are no longer helpful with the Grimm. 

Lo and behold, a used Grimm shows up on the other website. Folks are free to price things how they like, and folks are free to negotiate as they see fit, but I will say $9.5k for a used Grimm is a bold ask. You can buy one new with full warranty for much less than that. I did. I only say this because there’s a line of thinking, from folks who have never used the device, which goes something like: it’s only a NUC with some clocking and upsampling rigmarole, how could they charge $11k etc etc...

Just making the obvious point that there’s the named price, and then there’s the actual price. Just as a single data point, I do think it’s worth the full MSRP based on sonics alone (for me personally, with all the usual system dependent caveats).

@ghasley 

A quick off topic aside. The A.N.Jinro-Orangutan 96 pairing must sound utterly natural and involving 

Charles