Grimm MU1 Streamer - Really "The Best"?

On the subject of Grimm DACs, no the MU1 has no onboard DAC.  It is in the same class of product as the N20 and K50, but with its FPGA upsampling board.  The other thing that distinguishes it is that currently, it only supports Roon.  But as @ghasley said, the MU1 intercepts things and the usual disadvantages of Roon don’t apply to the MU1.  Grimm have gone to great lengths to do this.

Now, the truly interesting product which is long overdue is the MU2.  I believe it’s about two years late coming out now.  The MU2 will have an onboard DAC.  Not sure if it will finally launch this year. But I have read that MU1 owners expect to have the option to upgrade to a MU2.  I’m not sure how this upgrade works, but sounds good.  Another reason to hold off on purchasing any DACs I suppose.

Other forums report incremental improvements in the MU1’s sound with firmware updates (as has been reported with other servers updates too).  The most recent being the 1.5 update in December.  People report a denser, bigger midrange, however they did report this effect gives the top end less of an edge.  But overall thought it was an improvement.  I don’t like thinner sounding midranges, that’s one reason I like the N20.  Prior to the December firmware release, I read that Grimm had actually overhauled the code that does their onboard upsampling.  I like how they present each firmware update as a labour of love, indicating how long they’ve been working on it will all the value it provides.

In one of their firmware release notes they sadly said that they failed to enable the FM tuner hardware that is on the MU1 with their firmware release, with the resulting sound not being up to Grimm’s standards.  They announced they were giving up on this notion.  I’m thinking this was an April Fools joke, as that particular release was in April.  Either way, funny!

@charles1dad 

Thanks! 
 

@ghasley 

Let me rephrase, what is your experience with an external DAC fed by MU1’s FPGA upsampler vs FPGA upsampler turned off (bypass) ? 

@ghasley thanks again, and this time I’ve already been thinking along the lines of your advice :)

I admit I still hang onto the dream of being satisfied with my current DAC and staying true to my original objective - which I know is probably unlikely. Even if the Grimm does everything I want and more, you and others have convinced me to try an outboard DAC just to see. For all these reasons I am not planning to buy any DAC(s) at this point. I admit I might have a moment of weakness if a used Holo KTE comes up for a good price. But that aside , not going there at this point.

BUT - One thing that bugs me, in the back of my mind sort of way, is how many thousands of hours my poor Diablo has been run simply breaking in other gear, cables, etc. The Diablo does get quite hot - like a very warm (but not scalding) cup of coffee - due to its small amount of Class A power. For this reason, it DID cross my mind that I might want to buy a very cheap used DAC, simply so I can have the new server circuits running with a connection, so my Diablo can have some rest…. Not sure if this is a silly concern or not!!

@lalitk 

I do not believe that the Grimm MU1 has an onboard DAC.

@ghasley 

You mentioned the Mearson DAC. Isn't it DS Burr Brown based rather than R2R?

Thanks,

Charles

@ghasley 

What are your impressions of MU1 internal DAC vs external DAC? I believe, I read somewhere that you were using a Total DAC, is that still the case? 

@nyev You may be alot of things but timid is not one. Few of us mere mortals will purchase three top notch server/streamers for a shootout. Never forget, the fastest depreciation known to man happens to server/streamers and dacs.

A few more free pieces of advice, in particular, dac optimization as it pertains to the Grimm MU1. The first of which is….do not buy any dacs right now…you are introducing so many variables with three server/streamers and the various cables that you really do need to see whats going on with your existing setup. As a reminder, you were seeking a simple setup…two boxes. To me, based on my own unscientific experiments, that didnt seem possible to me with the Innuos or N20…it just might though with the Grimm. My recent posts encouraged you to try as many as you like and I implied that you should consider the Grimm after listening to the others in the event they didnt please you. Of those you are trying, the Grimm IMHO may be the only one capable of elevating your inboard Gryphon dac module to a level that you could be satisfied. You wont know until you try but now that it is on the way, you may as well be patient and wait and see. With that caveat…

Consider focusing on stand alone dacs which do not automatically upsample. For instance, the Meitner MA3 (which I love enough to have owned two at the same time in two systems) would not be a great fit with the Grimm because the Meitner upsamples everything to dsd regardless of what is input. Others may or may not but do your due diligence. Since a great deal of the magic with the Grimm is due to its clocking and proprietary upsampling techniques I can’t imagine a rational reason for the 24/192 output from the Grimm could be improved upon by that stream being re-upsampled by the dac. 

Everyone prefers what they prefer but in my experience I have found the NOS R2R ladder dacs seem to sound most natural to my ears. Some will swear by dsd or higher pcm dac rates, I just havent been inspired by sample rates, only by good sound. Focus on the output stage of the dac….thats where the magic either happens or it doesnt.

I also have not tried the spdif/rca/75ohm output from the Grimm, only the AES/EBU output. I have said elsewhere that, if I hadnt already owned a top-shelf dac I might consider some of the better resistor/ladder/or R2R 24/192 stand alone dacs with the Grimm. A couple that come to mind: Aqua or Merason dac1…maybe even a previous gen msb. Might save some money given the dac’s clocking is somewhat moot since the Grimm clock owns the day in this regard.

Above all else, I might suggest that you hold off bringing in any dacs until you have the chance to hear the Grimm with your inboard Gryphon dac module. You can then perform back to back to back comparisons. Your next step will likely be to liquidate the 3rd place server/streamer in your shootout, Maybe even the second place as well. I contend that the Grimm has the potential to elevate the performance of well executed dacs which may not have alot of bells and whistles. 

With the Jorma aes cable, you will get a better idea of what the N20 and the Grimm can do. Dont be afraid to rotate some other ethernet cables to feed these server/streamers. I can’t stress enough my disdain for the AQ diamond ethernet cable but YMMV. You will find the Grimm to be a little more ethernet, power and AES cable agnostic than others, which I consider a good thing. Also run your ethernet stream “wide open” at its fastest in the event your switch reduces speeds to a steady 100mbps (like ether regen and the like).

Best wishes in this next stage of your evaluation….you will find that the Grimm volume control will be your go to…especially since Roon makes it so easy. Unlike most server/streamers and their interface with Roon, the volume control from within Roon is intercepted by the Grimm and controlled by the Grimm for superior resolution. Most others are controlled by Roon and risk bit stripping unless run wide open. Again, not the case with the Grimm.

Good post @metaldetektor. Selecting a DAC is a process, very similar to selecting Speakers, Integrated (or Pre and Amp) and Streamer/Server for any seriously put together audio system. 

@lalitk , regarding the XLR interconnects, I have to admit I have no idea where to start there, as my system has not needed anything but USB cables for many years now. 

A mild source of stress of something I’m planning to research later so any pointers on that will help!  Do I need to bother trying a few options of interconnects, or does the fact that they are XLR negate the need for this?  Should I really be looking at ultra-low cost options since they are XLR?

Won’t be getting any DACs to try for quite a while yet.  The MU1 will probably take a month to arrive, and a month to burn in.  So T - 60 days or so until I bring in some  DACs….

Have fun listening to the different streamers in your system. It’s nice to see someone put their money where their mouth is and actually get first-hand listening impressions, at home in a familiar system, rather than armchair quarterback based on reviews, Youtube influencers, "price of parts" and amateur comments etc. (which is fine, as a starting point, the problem is when folks forget how compromised those impressions are...). Show/dealer experience is also far from ideal.

As far as separate DACs go, there are obviously a lot of good options to choose from. I would be wary of folks who strongly push you towards dac x or dac y, especially on this forum. So-and-so DAC is a giant killer, can compete with cost no object DACs, etc etc. With DACs in particular, there seems to be a competitiveness where folks want to validate that their value priced DAC is in the running among the best out there, frankly it’s a little silly and in my experience not based in reality (I have tried some of these flavor of the month DACs out of curiosity and quickly moved on. I’ll just leave it at that). At the risk of leading you to another rabbit hole, the best way to settle on a separate DAC is the same thing you’re doing with the server search...try a bunch in your system and see what you like. Have fun out there.

@nyev 

Congratulations on your purchase of MU1. This would be another reference point for you on both techs, streaming and DAC. What are you thinking in terms of XLR Interconnects for connectivity between MU1 and Diablo. Looking forward to your feedback. 

Well, the MU1 may be all I’m looking for, but maybe not - I have zero expectations in terms of how I’ll enjoy it, and in what configuration. But between three server solutions and TBD DAC’s I’ll be trying eventually, I’m sure I’ll figure it out. I’m not banking on the MU1 being part of the final solution; could be the N20 for all I know at this point! I’m a bit down on Innuos currently - I’m sure just due to my system parameters - super impressed with its detail air and space but not with its lack of image stability and solidity in my current system. Not sure that’s the right way to describe it. Maybe a new DAC would sort that out. Will find out eventually!

Good luck on this upgrade. Hope it is all you are looking for. 

Purchased an MU1. Should have in a few weeks.

Next need to consider the DAC. Will try to line up some demos before buying anything, and at the very least see how the MU1 does with my Gryphon DAC just while it’s burning in. Which I’m very interested in, because in theory it will help me get an understanding of the weaknesses of my DAC, supposedly being neutral leaning and accurate. Want to see if I perceive any negatives that might be common to either of the other two servers, which might be attributable to my DAC. Will try to get demo DAC’s in once the MU1 is burned in.

Yes, I do anticipate a revelation when I try the demo DACs - far moreso than I expect with the MU1. But I wanted a really neutral baseline to test the DAC’s with..

So I know, I’m only partially following your wise advice!

I’m also buying a Jorma AES cable finally, now that I found someone who will sell me one. I’ll need to return my demo Audioquest Diamond AES cable this week unfortunately, so I won’t be able to do controlled A/B tests between AES and USB.

Will continue running the AES on my N20 for 4 more days.  Still hoping something changes there, but probably not at this point.  At some level I’m disappointed in that, as I’d hope that fancy clock in the N20 would do something.  Will be interesting to do the same comparison with a different DAC.  On that note, the dealer who lent me the Diamond cable are a Linn and Moon dealer.  They might have some of their lower end DACs on hand for me to try with the Diamond cable.  But they often can’t as they are a tiny outfit and only have two demo systems in their shop, and most of their gear is reserved for that.  I will ask though.

I think my most recent thoughts on the N20 in my current system have pretty much stabilized for the near future, knowing that long term use can change things.  While I still think I hear a slight improvement with AES over USB, it’s so close that I wonder if I only hear it because I expect to.  I will get around to subjecting myself to a blind test, but I am expecting not to pass it.  I’ve also gone back and forth a few times with tiny speaker adjustments - my speakers with the N20 really want to be toed in a lot.  Tried backing off on that slightly for a few days, and just went back to the more toed in marker position.  Immediately it was like “ah, that’s a bit better.”
 

Either way, 

Thanks @sns. Evaluating that class of DAC, my thought is to go with the MU1 first, despite the emphasis on AES. My thinking is that the MU1 has a reputation for neutrality and precision, and not injecting a strong character of it’s own. While this is counterintuitive, considering I enjoy a mildly richer sound, there are other factors more important to me than this warmth, and I do feel that between the Innuos and the N20, the N20 has a bit of warmth and smoothness to it. The K50 is also known to be fuller sounding. In really isolating the sound of any DAC’s I’m testing, including my current Gryphon DAC, I feel like the MU1 might be best positioned to maximize the precision and neutrality giving me a good baseline to gauge DACs by. Not only in their character, but also by their performance, assuming that the MU1 is as accurate and precise as people (not just reviewers) say it is. The N20 and K50 can remain options if I want to reintroduce a touch of richness to the sound once I get a feel for the DACs.  That’s my current thinking…

I can recommend the Musetec as purchase piece, Holo May KTE great choice as well. I've seen both of these compared to much more expensive dacs, held their own or were preferred in some cases. KTE may be highest resolving R2R dac, and the Sabre 9038 pro chips in 005 are extremely revealing, transparent, both are musical dacs to boot. Both excel with usb input, some have used other inputs to good effect. Both of these dacs not out of place with any system at any price.

@lalitk , thanks for sharing, and for the advice.

I may be able to get demos of DACs in simultaneously with the next server, and, depending on the value of the DAC, purchase it too. That might be doable with a DAC like the Holo May KTE (although I won’t be able to get a demo of that one - but this is the level of DAC I could purchase alongside the next server).

The DACs mentioned by others above like the Bartok are more expensive, but are combo streaming DACs. So would a lower cost DAC-only, at the level of the Holo, be reasonable to trial? I see Musetec could also be interesting at an even lower price. But these DACs are a lower cost than the cost of my current Gryphon Diablo 300’s DAC module. So do I actually need to go higher? I know cost isn’t the deciding factor in performance but I’m just trying to plan at what level to engage. I can do another server + a Holo level DAC, but not another server plus a Bartok (which I could demo first but would only do so if I could potentially buy).

Also, somewhere above I changed my go-forward approach to require server capabilities. This is because I discovered for the first time that my system has become revealing enough to make the difference in quality matter to me. Once I settle in on a solution, my plan is to build a library of files but limited only to my absolute favorite material. The rest I will stream.

To be clear, I’d still be considering the K50 (or the MU1 despite that the K50 is more flexible) in conjunction with getting some DACs in as demos, at let’s say the $7k level or lower. Might be too limiting at that level?  While I’m unable to get home demos of the servers I’m interested in here, there are a few other dealers who are more demo friendly that I might be able to borrow interesting DACs from.

@nyev 

Catching up….I see that you’re now open to trying out an external DAC. Which is great and you owe yourself to do so if you want to hear ultimate performance out of ultra high-end streamers. Now that you’ve opened this door, my suggestion would be to let N20 break-in and shift your focus on auditioning DAC’s before buying another streamer. I would only consider buying K50 if you have unlimited funds to simultaneously compare K50, N20, MK3 with your choice of 2 to 3 DAC’s. You know what this would entail, tying up lots of money over a long period of time and patience to access what’s sounds best to your ears. The path to ultimate nirvana also entails multiple boxes and cable web, take a look at my ‘digital’ system under my user ID. I am well on my way to a five boxes digital front end from a once two box pretty darn good digital system (EMM Labs DA2 + N20) 

I can say from experience, finding the right DAC won’t be as easy as snapping your fingers. I went through painful yet equally enjoyable journey of owning 6+ DAC’s over last fours years before I finally found my ultimate DAC. Not to mention so many auditions at dealers and audio shows. Since you only stream, your DAC is the next most important piece of the puzzle after your Integrated. Truth be told, your onboard DAC is going to be a bottle neck for streamers like N20, K50 and Statement. You won’t truly know what these ultra high end streamers are capable of until you pair them with a really good DAC. 

During my DAC journey, Aurender remained my rock. I did hear offerings top offerings from Auralic, Innuos and Lumin but always returned to Aurender. And now I am pursuing Aurender N30SA as the ultimate companion to my DAC. Another huge plus with Aurender is their seamless integration with quite a few ultra high end DAC like MSB, Merging over Ethernet (RAVENNA). With this integration, you can opt to remove USB, AES and SPDIF cabling out of the equation. 

@ghasley

The Grimm is hand made in the Netherlands, Eindhoven IIRC.

Correct.

Charles

@ghasley , thanks for the correction.  I’m not sure why I thought the MU1 was made in China.  

@nyev

Thanks to being made in China. Like the MU1 too.

The Grimm is hand made in the Netherlands, Eindhoven IIRC. Not that there’s anything wrong with Made in China…

Occurred to me the MU1 could possibly be a truly great match for the Holo, feeding it it’s upsampled signal….   

@pokey77 , yep, would go for the KTE if I went that direction.

Does look to be a value product.  Thanks to being made in China.  Like the MU1 too.  Could make some ballon jokes here but don’t want to veer in that direction!

@nyev

If you do decide to go HoloAudio you should just go all out for the May KTE. Still only $5,600 and has a ton of good write ups and YT videos. It is two chassis and about 40 lbs. Looks to be quite the value product. BTW, I’ve never heard it before, just watched a video and read on Agon about it.

Thanks @pokey77 . Yes down the road I’ll be testing a DAC, as @ghasley has convinced me. Good to know about the Bartok upgrade! We’ll see about that route when the time comes. But it might be too costly for me - unless I use it as a one-box solution and sell all my servers. I might consider dialing it back and trying a more basic but good DAC, like the Holo May.  Not sure which approach would be best, but I did set out on this path with a vision of a one-box solution.  The Holo May, by the way, costs quite a bit less than my Gryphon DAC module. I know that NOS DAC sounds aren’t for everyone, but I’m curious.

With the minor revelation of switching to the Fast filter, so far, I can say that the N20 with my system gives me all I need to be happy. Do I want a bit more? Yes. But if everything else I try fails, I can fall back to the N20 and be perfectly happy with this setup. Really enjoying it now, despite the few things I still am missing from the Innuos. The Innuos has more HiFi magic, but the N20 has a bigger more solid center stage, and this just makes the experience more about the music. If my focus was to have a system to impress HiFi friends with flashy spatial imaging, great immersion, detail and air, the Innuos would be the ticket. The N20 might be duller in my system from that perspective. There are “fine detail” elements of some songs that are really highlighted on the Innuos, but on the N20 you need to pay attention to notice them. But “HiFi” was never the reason I got into this…

Also - it’s too early to say for sure, but I MAY finally be starting to hear a slight benefit of the AES interface over USB! There could be the slightest bit less flatness and more dimensionality to drums and bass - like they are a bit more fully formed. Or I may be imagining it - it’s hard to say at this point….

@nyev 

Sounds like you are having fun!

You've mentioned dCS and just thought I'd mention, if you are not already aware, the Bartok will be upgraded to APEX in March, so it'll have the same upgrade, in name at least, as the Rossini and the Vivaldi got a year ago. Hoping that'll make it a much better proposition. My experience with the Mosiac streamer is that it can do a lot of what Conductor can do, but it isn't as sophisticated - keep in mind that I just used if for a few hours because I might consider doing a home demo of the Bartok later this year. In the end, I have an N10, so if I don't like the Mosaic streamer, I could just use the N10.

Very interesting to read about you switching the Gryphon module to "fast". Hoping that works out for you.

Bluesound Node 2i with an outboard DAC like the Pontus 2. its the DAC that counts.

Grimm Audio MU1 owner here, and truly like how it fits sonically in my system. Came from Lumin streamers and sigma dacs. Decided to separate things out a bit and having a great time with the journey…Buy what fits your requirements and whatever sounds good to you.

I’m embarrassed I didn’t think of trying this earlier with the N20 but I totally forgot to try changing my Gryphon DAC module’s filter from the default slow setting to fast. With the Innuos setup, a long time ago I concluded that “fast” produced an overly sharp and thin sound, and just changed back to slow and left it alone since. But with the N20, the effect is really pleasing. Given the overall rich tonal density I’ve been getting with the N20, with the DAC set to “Fast”, the top end is now more naturally crisp, but not sharp like it was with this setting on the Innuos. Vocals are also freed up a bit, are a touch less veiled, and are just a touch more 3D. It’s REALLY quite nice now. Still nowhere near the level of high frequency detail and transparency as the Innuos, but I find so far, I’m not as constantly aware of missing upper detail with the N20 as much as before. This is good! Very enjoyable sound now.

I thought maybe now I’d hear a difference between AES and USB, but nope! Maybe something is capping the AES performance, or my DAC’s USB and clock implementation is so good it makes no difference. I know, extremely unlikely…  I thought I’d hear a difference by now, at the very least simply from the brand new cable burning in vs the well-used equivalent Diamond USB cable.

I read once that changing from slow to fast filters, you gain something (higher upper frequency response) but you also lose something (less stable frequency response due to the more aggressive response). Not sure I have that right. Anyways if I lost anything, I haven’t noticed yet, and I gained more with “Fast” engaged.

I think I am going to stick to the plan and acquire a K50. I have an opportunity to acquire one for a deal.

BUT I am also going to follow @ghasley’s advice as well; will get a demo DAC in house AFTER the K50 is good and burnt in. Steps:

1. Acquire a K50 and start burning in while continuing to live with and focus on the N20
2. Acquire a demo of a respected DAC like a Bartok/Lina/Meitner (go Canada…)
3. Spend time with all of the variables possibly even a year
4. Wait for the impending recession to end (who knows how long, but hopefully not long)
5. Sell what I don’t need anymore and possibly buy a DAC, if I feel like it. I have no idea why, but I truly enjoy selling my old gear to people who are very excited to receive it. It makes me happy. I even got carried away and sold my beloved Clarus Crimson Biwire cables just because I wanted to sell them to an eager buyer - and regretted it. The manager at the post office knows me now, and always asks about what audio component I’ve sold this time….

This approach just gives me a bit wider experience, with three premium servers instead of two, to trial with two DACs. Could still fit the MU1 in this mix but it may not be necessary depending on how things go - I’ll have a whole lot of great stuff to trial in different configurations, that I can relax and take my time with. At that point I’ll have a very informed take on the three great servers, used with multiple DACs, and with both USB and AES. Sounds like a plan to me.

The fact is, the parameters I’m working with, shipping and duty wise, demo-access wise, and where I live plays a huge part in how I proceed with something like this.  For someone in the US, I am guessing you have far more flexibility with a plethora of dealers and US-based distributors, for almost any audio component you might want to try.  This journey may be unusual, but it’s going to be fun, informative, and relaxed. Discovering the very blatantly obvious sonic traits of the N20 vs the Innuos has already been informative. Best of all, the net expenditure will not be too crazy after all is said and done.

@ghasley I am also seriously considering your suggestion to try to get a demo of a well-respected standalone DAC in-house for a demo, as an interim step before sourcing a K50.  I’d only opt to try a DAC within budget, to be fair to the dealer, to enable the path of potentially purchasing it.  

The Bartok is a combined streamer/DAC.  I guess it would be fairly easily within budget even if I had to firesale my servers today (not that I’m going to!).  But do you suggest I try to stick with “pure” standalone DACs?  There is a DCS dealer in an adjacent city that I might be able to get a demo Bartok from…

Thanks @ghasley. I also don’t think I’m far off from what I’m looking for in SQ - the N20 proved that. It does everything I want, aside from a slight bit of what the the Innuos does. Just needs a hair more transparency and I’d be there. I don’t even need all the transparency of the Innuos. Is that unreasonable? Maybe! But maybe not….  

@nyev

Its all good. Whatever gets us to the desired outcome. I hear you regarding research, reading, gathering info...but so many reviews are embellished or worse...they might be truthful and factual but without a clear understanding that context is everything. To make matters worse, the writing style and the motives of the writer sometimes combine to communicate an unintentionally false impression. The writer may be trying to drive home the point that product A is "warmer" than product B but they are afraid to alienate manufacturer B by adversely comparing the two products. Therefore, they attempt to write something objective when, in fact, neither product might align with our respective definition of "warm". Unless everything in our system is identical to the reviewers, then the outcome will be different. Unless our version of a term aligns perfectly with the person recording their findings, then we will innocently form an incorrect assumption.

I was merely giving you a hard time to drive home the point that we all get conditioned..."if I add a component then I have to buy Audioquest Diamond or Audio Note Sogon interconnects" or I won’t hear it "at its best". We go "there" without ever hearing the component and cable combo and worse, we listen for a few minutes and immediately wonder how we can improve it. I’ve done it...I have a closet full of various gear, cables and interconnects to prove it LOL. We buy a filter or gadget and immediately buy more to see if daisy chaining them is cumulative?

Keep it simple, have fun, know why we want it and repeat. For instance, I have some speaker cables I swear by in my system and recommended them to a friend and he hated them. My amp is a single ended triode vacuum tube amp which is optimized for 6/8 ohm loads, my speakers are 12 ohm, 96db and my cables are almost 30 ft in length. He has SS amplification and drives 8ohm, 90db speakers with 2.5 meter speaker cables. What could possibly go wrong? What could possibly explain the difference of opinion? Of course, the physical properties which optimize those cables for my system are inconsistent with what was required by his system. Interconnects? Single ended interconnects of a particular brand/model SHOULD sound different than the xlr version of the same wire but which is right? Most likely the balanced version because the standard removes most variables.

Best of luck.

@ghasley , thanks and all good points. My incorrect hunches on interconnects was certainly not solidified since I have zero experience with standalone DAC’s and related interconnects, which is why I put out the hunch to be shot down :)

I get your point on reading accounts of others, but I disagree as this approach has in the past led me to products I would not have otherwise considered - like my Diablo. Never would have considered it without first getting a general idea of the voice of this amp. And my sentiments after living with it for years would reflect the consensus from others who have heard it. All generalizations of course, there is a level of understanding that goes beyond when you’ve heard it yourself.

My reading of others opinions (mostly forum posts) led me to look to the three particular servers I am considering in this thread - I would not have been turned on to them for consideration without this research. After I started this thread, I’ve maybe once or twice been back to reading accounts of others; the research is done :)

Anyways, my personal view is that you can make generalizations towards how a particular piece is voiced, despite the multitude of variables, with the caveat that this is merely a starting point to set you on the right direction, as there is so much more to unpack beyond these generalizations. Just my opinion and as I said, I never would have come across Gryphon without this process! I was NOT having luck home demoing separates at the time, I hated them all (yes, I was limited in what I could test). When I tried the Diablo in my system the first time it was a total revelation!

I know others don’t share this view, but hey, this process has worked for me in the past.

I am relieved to know I wouldn’t have to spend an arm and a leg on interconnects for a DAC….  Thanks again for the advice; I appreciate it!

@nyev pretend for a moment that we have been friends for many years. Now, pretend that I just hit you squarely on your jaw to try to knock some sense into you! You are already fretting about interconnects? You have a six dollar ribbon cable or a four dollar board slot with traces presently connecting your Gryphon dac module... so relax for a moment and take a deep breath.

Also, free advice...I've heard interconnects make both a positive and negative difference. Its a thing. BUT...I utilize nice but sensibly priced (in my opinion) interconnects but its a bigger deal since I use single ended/rca. With that disclaimer, you could pick up a pair of nice XLR interconnects for peanuts ~$500 and you wouldnt be able to hear much if any difference between them and $5,000/pr interconnects as long as the dac adheres to the balanced XLR standard, you will be fine. Your Gryphon has balanced inputs so you are good to go. Thats what the XLR standard was designed for...to virtually eliminate variations in cables.

Get a good dac in your system. You need to know if the streamers are the limiting factor right now or if its your dac board. This exercise will easily demonstrate which. If you acquire a great dac then you will also experience a small epiphany.

Regarding your "cable rat's nest", it doesnt have to be that way. You do however have to step back and admit that the self-inflicted audiophle neurosis that is so prevalent these days is likely overkill. What cables do you have that are causing you heartburn?

(A) Server/streamer: 1 power cable, 1 ethernet cable, one digital cable to the dac

(B) Dac: 1 power cable, 1 pair interconnects

(C) Amp: 1 power cable, 1 pair speaker cables

Don't get FOMO on interconnects (or any other cable for that matter). In most cases, and I'm a committed cable believer to a large degree, people lose their rational minds. Cables make a difference but that's the final thing you tweak, not a paralyzing decision up front. and my final comment....the fact that you've heard no other dacs besides whats inside your Diablo is all the more reason to to bring in a high quality dac for comparison. You simply dont know what you dont know. If, after listening to a quality external dac and still find your Gryphon dac preferable...then you will have removed a variable.

Above all else, stop reading reviews....they have you amped up for all the wrong reasons...we have all been guilty of the same behavior so the sooner you relax and trust your ears the better. In fact, my favorite interconnects to my ears in my system are NOT the top tier of the manufacturers lineup. 

The dCS Lina & Bartok can be one box units if you use Mosaic as your controlling App. 

@ghasley I hate the fact that I agree with your advice to try some well known and available DACS. In fact the Gryphon DAC module is the only premium DAC I’ve tried in my system, ever. So yes, there is no doubt it would be eye opening. On the other hand, @sns raised a great point - my current DAC has proven it can do everything I want - just not in the same server of the two I have experience with. Although it’s possible a different DAC would rectify this with one server or the other, or both.

Why do I hate this advice?

1. It requires another box if I enjoy the benefits and go this route
2. I don’t get to reduce my rat’s nest of cabling
3. Cost. I’d need to buy an expensive interconnect as well as an AES cable, probably. My assumption is I’d want to spend twice the amount of the AES cables I’ve been looking at (Jorma, Sablon, Audioquest Diamond) on analog interconnects to do justice to the system. I don’t have any experience with premium analog interconnects - do I have this right?

I know audiophiles joke about not exposing themselves to superior gear they can’t afford, as they will justify a way to afford it when they hear it. I’m afraid it might not be a joke in my case, but a legitimate concern lol!

I also feel like my current quest might truly turn into a true rabbit hole if I intro a new DAC. I’m not shutting down the concept of maybe pivoting in that direction. But my current thinking was to compartmentalize my quest to server testing only and finding the best that works with my current DAC. And maybe in the future looking into DACs. I understand that this does limit what I can learn from testing the servers though, with the DAC pairing being an essential element. Hmmm…

@ghasley you are right, the Pulsar is stated as being USB only!  I am fairly sure that before the delay of the Pulsar, the specifications for it were posted on the Innuos site along with the specs of the other two Pulse products.  And, I could have sworn that the Pulsar used to list AES as an output in its specifications section that no longer exists.  Not saying I’m certain about this, but if I’m right it would signal that a redesign of the Pulsar is in fact underway to deal with parts availability issues (that Innuos directly told me they were having with respect to the Pulsar).

@charles1dad 

@nyev 

Those very favorable comments from the reviewer/ friend were about the Pulse?

My apologies for mistyping earlier, I meant to type that my friend has the Pulse.

@ghasley 

My friend has the Pulse in house, which does have the multiple flavors of digital outputs. The Pulsar will be USB only.

Those very favorable comments from the reviewer/ friend were about the Pulse? That is very encouraging. to know. Also wise of Innuos to offer it with connection options as well.

Charles

@nyev 

Also, unlike past Innuos devices the Pulsar does have have a AES output.

My friend has the Pulse in house, which does have the multiple flavors of digital outputs. The Pulsar will be USB only.

Have you considered bringing in a different dac? I’m not suggesting you consider buying a different dac (although I would LOL), what I am suggesting is you bring in a different dac to confirm the streamer/server differences (or lack therof) are a function of the server/streamers rather than your dac board. If it were me, I would bring in an exceptional dac with an inboard streamer that is readily available in Canada. For instance, a DCS Bartok/Lina or even a Meitner MA3…both should be easy to get on demo in Canada. You would learn a couple of different things. You could see how the other dac sounds direct connect to the server/streamers. Additionally, you could see how it sounds using its inboard streamer. Lastly you could determine the real world delta between your inboard dac and a purpose built dac.

I too was told by Innuos that the Pulsar was not finalized due to parts shortages. In late December Nuno Vitorino said that there was no launch date and that it would be a long time in the future. I wonder if they had to redesign the unit around more available parts like Antipodes did. @ghasley , maybe your reviewer friend had a pre-production sample? Also, unlike past Innuos devices the Pulsar does have have a AES output. Yes, I agree it is a very interesting product! But would require me to keep my Zenith as you said, if I wanted to keep server capabilities and I do.

Also @ghasley , again you guys in the US are lucky with lower taxes and duties - FAR lower - than us Canadians. Depending on the item we can be charged 25% of the value of the item when it shows up at the door! And you’ll never know exactly how much it will be when it shows up. This is the reason many dealers won’t ship demos to Canada.

It’s true I can fall into an over analysis pattern when going down an audiophile rabbit hole. It’s happened with cabling. In some cases it can be stressful because I’m not entirely sure I trust myself with the extremely subtle differences I’m hearing. But so far in this case that’s not happened, and it most certainly isn’t stressful! It’s been eye-opening in the best possible way. The reason why: the differences between my N20 and Innuos gear are blatantly obvious! Two totally unique presentations. It’s when I’m in a situation where I’m splitting hairs that things can get dicey, and that’s not needed in this journey - so far at least!

After 2.5 days of run-time on AES, so far there is STILL absolutely zero difference between AES and USB that I can hear. Speaking of reading up in advance, I was looking forward to some benefits here hopefully, but nope. Everything still sounds very good though!

I was thinking last night that I’d enjoy the N20 if it was my only choice and I had to keep it forever. I’d also be consistently be aware of the missing top end transparency and air, but despite that it simply connects with music better than the Innuos for me. For the record - I hadn’t read any of these traits in advance of noticing! :). And yes, I’ve absolutely read up extensively on the MU1 and the K50. When researching I tend to discount one-off comments, but when you hear a small army saying the same things, I do pay attention then. Knowing that I still could be the odd one out due to my system or tastes!

@charles1dad indeed, the Pulsar is a 2023-Q2 introduction. I brought it up only in the context that @nyev was seeking maximum performance.

The OP has chosen a path, one that I’m not so sure many would embark upon, but it’s his path. I joke about it with a dealer friend quite often. He keeps describing what I might (or might not) get by moving to the next level of amplification for my setup and I kindof think I’m where I need to be given the absolute realities of a domestic environment. Many of us are willing to chase the last bit of performance but I also recognize that I am certainly capable of chasing something beyond what could be considered reasonable. Based on this thread, the OP may be getting close to “beyond reasonable”. In fact, the Zenith by itself is likely not a bad match with the Gryphon dac board. Anything beyond that could be viewed by many as an imbalance of committed resources. I’d rather spend $10k on a server/streamer and $10k on a complimentary dac than a heavy spend on the server/stremer to feed the Gryphon dac board but that’s me. The OP set a goal and I hope he finds happiness. 

I do find it puzzling that the OP and his communicated impressions of the Innuos setup vs the N20 setup. I dont recall the OP’s speakers or whether he has an optimized room but the sound he describes from those two setups is inconsistent with my experience…his ears, his room, his goals right?

@ghasley 

Another option for you could also be to keep your Zenith, sell the Phoenix and get your hands on the Pulsar. For very little money (net) you gain the multiple outputs(aes/spdif/usb). Ive been told by a reviewer friend that it is an amazing performer for the $$$ with a warm, enveloping presentation. 

I thought that the “Pulsar “ was not finalized and still a work in progress. I know that the Pulse Mini and the Pulse network players are now available,

Charles

I do like the idea of changing out dac, but it seems dac delivers things he likes, just not with one streamer.

The fact so many happy with both Innuos and Aurender servers under review here makes me want to think issue is elsewhere. I suppose the only thing we all can offer is the things we'd do if in same position. Since I'm diy and modifier, whenever I have these dilemmas I tune by changing out capacitors, resistors, internal wiring, cabling, etc. If the components are close to delivering, these things can offer a solution.

@charles1dad I wasn't aware Chris offered the R1. In any case the R1 is my max resolving outlet, the PorterPorts which were Albert Porter's modified, I think Hubbels, are for added warmth.

@nyev As mentioned previously, I'd go with K50 next, guess I'm biased as this was going to be my streamer of choice.

@nyev 

Try the K50 next. Even though I’m a Grimm MU1 owner, a very happy one I might add, I’m running the Grimm into an external dac. As long as the Gryphon inboard dac is your dac of choice, you should consider server/streamers which allow for aes/ebu or USB outputs. That way you can do as you’ve done with the N20 and compare multiple inputs into your dac to determine the optimal input match.

You are already down the rabbit hole and you appear to be reading alot of commentary, which can be fuel to the fire of over-analyzing without knowing if what you are reading is truly applicable to your circumstances. Additionally, you seem concerned about duties etc which, while I understand the thought, I dont understand the logic….duties are peanuts when evaluating whether or not you can arrive at a solution with which you can be happy for the long run. Another option for you could also be to keep your Zenith, sell the Phoenix and get your hands on the Pulsar. For very little money (net) you gain the multiple outputs(aes/spdif/usb). Ive been told by a reviewer friend that it is an amazing performer for the $$$ with a warm, enveloping presentation. How would that perform with your Gryphon dac? One way to find out is to listen and you are already familiar with the form factor and the ease of being able to try it. The Pulsar is likely what you are after but its usb only.

If you are indeed committed to your inboard Gryphon dac and the two box footprint(streamer/server and Diablo/dac), then your limiting factor will be the Gryphon dac. Embrace the reality rather than spend $20k US on a server/streamer only to achieve something “a little different”. 

So….. based on my results so far, which server should I look to next - the K50 or the MU1?

Tonally rich, dense, immersive, smooth, organic and immediate (K50) or neutral, precise, transparent and “incisive” (MU1)?

Please don’t think I’m turning my attention from the N20; I’m not for a few weeks yet! But starting to wonder which to line up next. Considering just buying new from a dealer who can offer considerable discounts, particularly on the K50. The challenge trying to get demos from US dealers is that I’m in Canada. Tricky dealing with import duty etc. And if buying from the US I’ll be charged an unknown amount of import duty which can be massive. You guys down south have more options!

Also, I’ve at least at this point written Innuos off, because I’m not about to buy the Statement Next Gen, and I’ve read many accounts that the Statement is really close to what I have now with my current Innuos setup. Meaning it’s doubtful it will address the few nits I’m trying to address. Like I said, my current thinking, which could change.

Isolation transformers are are beastly. Mine weighs 88 pounds. One issue I’ve had is that I found that each outlet on it sounds slightly different. Center vocals are the most noticeable variance between receptacles, with the vocals becoming narrower/sharper and more forward or wider and more recessed. Both extremes don’t sound natural, and a few receptacles are just right. Recently went through experimentation to determine the best configuration of what gets plugged where. Before I realized this, I was a devout “plug your amp direct into the wall” disciple. But I realized that the outlet I had been using on the Torus when plugging the amp in was not the best. Found a better sounding receptacle and now have everything going through the Torus. One of the few weird “gremlins” I’ve experienced in my system.

@sns 

Like  Charles went with BPT 3.5 Sig, 80lbs behemoth. I further modded with Oyaide R1 and PorterPort receptacles

Interesting you choose the Oyaide R1 receptacles. When Chris built mine he offered these as an upgrade option and I chose them. This was in 2008. Now 2023 and still no chance my system will be without it. Excellent audio products are really able to withstand the test of time.

Charles