07-23-12: Almarg
...as I suggested earlier, how do we know that comparable differences would not occur if an extensive and thorough comparison were performed among several different inexpensive garden-variety fuses? Especially given that the technical explanations for the alleged benefits of expensive fuses are not well established, at least in a manner that withstands quantitative scrutiny... I agree, Al. 07-23-12: Nonoise
I just can't deny what I'm hearing. Bryon hears something different. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree until more negative anecdotal evidence builds up. Hi Nonoise - I can't recall exactly what your experiences with fuses have been. Mine were mixed. In my first experiment, described on 5/5, I preferred the stock fuse to the Hifi Tuning Silverstars, both in my Pass amp and my Meridian preamp. In my second experiment, described on 5/18, I preferred the Isoclean fuse to the stock fuse in my preamp, but I could not hear a difference between the Furutech fuse and the stock fuse in my Pass amp. In my third experiment, which I never described in detail, I slightly preferred the Furutech fuse to the stock fuse in my Parasound amp. So my order of preference for each component was... Meridian Preamp: Isoclean > stock > Hifi Tuning Silverstar Pass Amp: Furutech & stock > Hifi Tuning Silverstar Parasound Amp: Furutech > stock Of course, YMMV. All this is just a friendly reminder to Nonoise. To my detractors, please let's not start the argument all over again. Bryon |
Just when you think all the controversy regarding fuses has been settled This happens! |
With a 30 day, no risk, money-back guarantee; no one has an excuse not to try them. SR is obviously quite confident. |
"With a 30 day, no risk, money-back guarantee; no one has an excuse not to try them."
I am not an EE so I often do not feel qualified to determine valid replacement parts in my gear.
Plus the fuses I have sound plenty good to me.
Those would be my excuses in a nutshell.
Rodman, by your logic, everyone should try every product out there that offers a no risk money-back guarantee.
Obviously many do not care enough or feel comfortable doing their own tweaks of this nature in which case they should stay away.
Otherwise, nice guarantee.....have at it! |
In the past I have had stock , Isoclean, and Furotech fuses in my Art Audio PX-25 tube amp, and my Marantz SA11-S2 SACD player. In June I replaced these fuses with Synergistic Research fuses. Since these were the power fuses at the A/C inlet the equipment does not have to be opened to change the fuse. Simply pull out the fuse tray below the plug and change the fuse.
I was quite impressed by the improvement the SR fuse made. The 3-D sound stage was much improved. Detail was improved but did not favor one frequency range at the expense of another. The sound was more detailed but more relaxed. I did not experence listener fatigue.
As easy as it is to swap power fuses in most equipment and no risk to return the fuses, I think this is a fun and rewarding experiment most audio hobbiests will enjoy doing.
David Pritchard |
What do you guys think about the comments from Roger A. Modjeski ,well known designer that ClioO9 was good enough to share ? Link to Audio circle on pg1 of this thread.After reading this I could not bring myself to try these fuses.Thank you ClioO9 and Roger Modjeski |
I haven't read what Roger Modjeski stated or what was shared by Clio09.
What I do know is that the High Fi Tuning Supreme fuse works for me.
I do wonder though,if a very well known maker of ice cream said "Do not eat vanilla" would you not taste it and make your own decision ?? |
Thanks goes out to Roger Modjeski for bringing this to the attention of Music Reference owners. Roger carefully chooses the fuses used in his amps. He doesn't like to repair amps & neither do I. |
David,
I have an sa11-s1 and have considered a power fuse upgrade but can not see any external fuse tray or slot. Could you please advise how I can access this fuse tray you spoke of. Thanks.
John |
Yes, I also brought up the potential risks with replacing fuses just for better sound a ways back in this thread as well.
When one is addicted to something, like the continuous pursuit of better sound, I suppose one is more disposed to take a gamble and roll the dice.
Besides, if the gear goes up sometimes afterwards who's to say the fuse was the cause.
I'm still with Modjeski. I can get the sound I want without overriding my vendors technical decision regarding the fuse used. Just because I can replace a part does not mean I should unless I really know exactly what I am doing.
To those who have and continue to enjoy better sound, more power to you. Just be sure you know what the hell you are doing before customizing expensive and complex electronic gear. |
Mapman wrote,
"To those who have and continue to enjoy better sound, more power to you. Just be sure you know what the hell you are doing before customizing expensive and complex electronic gear."
Faint heart n'e'r won fair maiden. Besides, replacing a fuse is not rocket science. |
Wow. 512 posts and counting and this is one of several "fuse" threads on a'gon. I installed my Hifi Supreme's in everything more than a year ago and have never looked back. Having too much fun to worry whether it's crazy. Maybe some day I'll get off my lazy butt and try the Quantum chips or the SR's. |
Faint heart n'e'r won fair maiden. Besides, replacing a fuse is not rocket science.
Geoffkait (Answers | This Thread) I have an sa11-s1 and have considered a power fuse upgrade but can not see any external fuse tray or slot. Could you please advise how I can access this fuse tray you spoke of. Thanks.
John
Nanotweeter (Threads | Answers | This Thread) The above kinda speaks for itself. Incorrect information given for one or more style units. Nanotweeter, I don't know if David above has a different model than yours, but, the ones I see pictured on the internet has at least five to six fuses inside it. None on the back of the unit I see pictured. I could be in error, and thinking I'm looking at the correct unit, and the pictures may be wrong. If your going to risk changing them, be careful. You have to make sure each one is the correct type, if not you may be putting it, and yourself at risk. Secondly, these PC mounted type of holders can easily break lose, and also damage the PC board traces. The thought of someone other than an experienced tech doing this, changes my thoughts about buying some used gear even more now. If it wasn't broke when they made it, why try to experiment with it. Didn't the engineers of this $3500/$3000 player have the customers interest in mind? I would hope they did. |
The engineers had profit in mind, and so does the designer,manufacturer,dealer, all down the line.
Using a cheap fuse is cheap.
Designing a protection circuit without a fuse isn't.
Sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings.
Cheap fuses work, they do what they are supposed to do, unless of course they are defective.
Consider how many cheap fuses have been made over the years and how many of those are still functioning perfectly in whatever gear they came in.
Why would an upscale fuse,with claims of better materials and construction be more suspect to fail than the mass produced fuses?
I don't see the logic.
Why, this could lead one to conclude that amplifiers built in small numbers by artisans would be more susceptible to breakdown and repair than the amps produced for the masses made in large numbers by large corporations.
I had a nice DecWare SET amp that never let me down and sounded quite a bit better than my Yamaha reciever.
Which is as it should be isn't it?
So why would a designer fuse be anything but better?
And ,if anyone is doubting that the HiFi Supremes won't protect your gear, you would be wrong.
They'll pop and protect your gear if you place the wrong fuse in the wrong place.
Lesson learned. |
I also had Hi-Fi Supreme fuses in all of my components until I tried the Synergistic SR fuses and the difference was quite startling. Much cleaner sound with better placement of images, deeper/wider soundstage, more decay and blacker background.
The difference is obvious from the start... |
@Wig- KUDOS for not allowing the prevention of your experimentation/listening tests, by the daunting technological challenge of changing those fuses. =;^) |
If one places the wrong fuse in the wrong location(too HIGH an amperage rating); it IS possible for the circuit to be destroyed, should a fault occur(a harder lesson learned). Care must be taken, to select the proper fuse for the application. It's GOOD that some understand their own limitations. |
Fuses on the Marantz SA11-S1. The basic power fuse on this player can not easily be changed. It is hardwired to the circuit board. You can change the rail fuses by removing the top of the player. There are 5 fuses in the unit. 1.6 amp and 1.o amp. All are slow blow and size small. Each is clearly labled. I have changed the fuses to Synergistic Research on the SA11-S1 player and it does make a worthwile improvement ( even at $59.00 X 5 ).
The Marantz SA11-S2 does have a power fuse inside. You have to open the top like the S2 model. Inside the power fuse is labled 3.15 slow blow and easy to see and get to. It has 6 rail fuses. 1.0 amp and 1.6 amp. All small slow blow types. Just replacing the one power fuse on the S2 player makes a difference. Replacing the rail fuses makes a further difference.
The two amps I have replaced power fuses on are the Art Audio PX-25 and the Eddy Current Zana Deux amps. With these amps the power fuses are located in removable trays below the power cord socket.
It was easy to replace the fuses on all four products and all four improved in sound when the Synergistic Research fuses were installed.
E mail me if you want me to walk you through how to open a S-1 or S-2 Marantz SACD player. It is fun to get to look inside your own player. It helps demystify the equipment. |
I should have known better, and should have used a magnifying glass to check which original fuse was the 5 amp and which was the 1.5
The more robust looking original fuse I mistook for the 5 amp fuse.The 5 amp fuse was actually the thin single wire, the 1.5 had a spring type coil inside.
There were no markings on the Acoustat servo amps designating fuse values.
Initially I thought I had a problem somewhere else.
I re-installed the stock fuses and everything was fine.
Upon closer examinationation of the value etched onto the fuses I discovered my error.
I had to re-order another pair of 1.5 fuses,and have had no problems ever since.
As simple as simple gets.
Just remember to always look at the fine print. |
The main reason why a aftermarket fuse makes it oundstaging better is a easy explanation .a stock Steel fuse has 7-8 Times the resistance of Silver
Just check the resistance index online.as we all know resistance in electronics is a Huge bottle neck for everything goes through them.
The reason mfg donot do this ,except To my knowledge John Curl
In all Halo products has a Silver type fuse,No not. hifi tuning fuse but an Acme type which is still much better considering my amp has 5 fuses.
My Ayon Skylla dac-preamp has 12 fuses for the few that have done this it was a Huge improvement 8X less resistance X 12 .fuses are way over priced hat is my only gripe .they cost them maybe $10-12 dollars some markup, just like audio cables ,another story all together. |
09-08-12: Audioman58
The main reason why a aftermarket fuse makes it oundstaging better is a easy explanation .a stock Steel fuse has 7-8 Times the resistance of Silver. Just check the resistance index online.as we all know resistance in electronics is a Huge bottle neck for everything goes through them.
First, let me say that I don't question the sonic improvements you obtained from your fuse upgrades. Second, let me say that your explanation is one that initially may seem logical. However, IMO the explanation does not stand up when looked at quantitatively, for several reasons. Before going into those reasons, let me say that resistance in a fuse can have two effects: (a)The voltage seen by the component will be reduced from the voltage that is provided at the wall outlet (or the outlet of a power conditioner or regenerator, if present). That reduction will equal the voltage dropped across the fuse, which in turn will correspond to the amount of current being conducted through the fuse multiplied by the resistance the fuse has at that current level. (b)If the amount of current drawn by the component fluctuates significantly, the voltage seen by the component will also fluctuate, to a degree corresponding to the DIFFERENCE between fuse resistance x current draw when the current draw by the component is at a maximum, and fuse resistance x current draw when the current draw is at a minimum. If you examine the very extensive test data on various fuses that is provided by HiFi-Tuning, that was linked to by BryonCunningham earlier in this thread, you will see that the resistances of the standard glass and standard ceramic fuses that were tested were such that when carrying amounts of current within the range they are intended to carry the voltage drops across them were a small fraction of a volt, in most cases a tiny fraction of a volt. That leads to the following conclusions: 1)In components that draw relatively constant amounts of current, and/or that have regulated power supplies, the effects of that small fraction of a volt reduction of the AC line voltage seen by the component will be utterly negligible. That would apply to your DAC-Preamp, to nearly all other preamps and source components, and to Class A amplifiers. And lest there be any doubt about that, see the next item: 2)EVEN IF that small fraction of a volt reduction of the AC line voltage seen by those components has any audible significance, minimization of that reduction by a fuse having lower resistance would NOT BE CONSISTENTLY FOR THE BETTER. Suppose for instance that a component is designed such that it works best at 120VAC. If the AC line voltage at the particular location is less than 120 VAC, the slight increase in voltage provided by the upgraded fuse would be in the direction of helping. But if the AC line voltage at the particular location is greater than 120 VAC, the increase would be in the wrong direction, and would degrade sonics if in fact it makes any difference at all. 3)With a component that has an unregulated power supply and draws widely fluctuating amounts of current, such as most Class AB power amplifiers, the FLUCTUATION in voltage drop across the fuse could, if great enough, have sonic consequences. Again, however, it would seem highly farfetched that further reducing what would be a tiny fraction of a volt of fluctuation with a standard fuse would produce significant and consistent improvements among different amplifier designs. And,again, even if there were a benefit in those cases, it would not be applicable to other kinds of components. Regards, -- Al |
A P.S. to my previous post. Obviously I was addressing AC line fuses, and fuses that are conducting audio or other signals, in speakers or at circuit points within electronic components, may be a completely different story.
Regards,
-- Al |
Al, I agree - It doesn't make any sens. 5A slow fuse (3AG Littelfuse) has about 0.02 ohm.
Let assume that another fuse is 0.01 ohm - twice better (hard to believe). The difference of 0.01 ohm is equivalent to about 3 feet of gauge 12 (1.6mohm/ft) house wiring (counting both ways). It would mean that 3' power cord would sound significantly better than 6' cord not to mention differences between rooms or houses that would be huge. |
09-08-12: Audioman58
The main reason why a aftermarket fuse makes it oundstaging better is a easy explanation .a stock Steel fuse has 7-8 Times the resistance of Silver I don't think I have ever seen steel used for the element in a fuse. But, who knows how many different types of metals it has been through before reaching our home? Then you have all of the various types of metals in the homes electrical system. A lot of various metals are used in the component and its parts too, before its outputs. If every metal has its own sound, who knows where to begin trying to figure all of this out, since it traveled through all of the different metals? Trying to describe all of the changes in sound after traveling through all of these metals taken into consideration sounds impossible. And just the one little fuse is supposed to make a fairly noticeable difference, even makes it sound more impossible to make any sense. |
The after market fuses I installed made a clear difference and at a low cost. One of the best tweak/upgrades to date. |
Al,
Silver vs steel - could there be some other explanation such as susceptibility to noise, audiophile fuses could be better constructed, merely changing the fuses will wipe/clean the contact points and reduce resistance.
An old trick is to replace the fuse with a hardwired, ie soldered, fuse wire so there are no mechanical connections. |
Hi Dover, I'd imagine that improved contact integrity resulting from merely changing the fuse is the explanation is some cases, but not in many others. I can't see how noise pickup could be an explanation, considering the short length that is involved, the much greater length of the associated wiring (both internally and externally to the component), the considerable amounts of noise that are presumably present on the incoming AC, the noise rejection provided by the power supply, and the noise rejection resulting from the power supply rejection ratio of the circuit stages in the component. Better materials and construction are often cited as an explanation, but IMO that is a non-explanation, because it doesn't explain (in a quantitative manner, if at all) why the supposedly inferior materials and construction of the standard fuses would degrade the sound. As you may have seen earlier in this thread, e.g. in the first of my posts dated 5-14-12, and also in the post by Rogermod (the distinguished amplifier designer Roger Modjeski) dated 5-11-12, pretty much all of the other commonly offered explanations do not stand up when analyzed quantitatively, at least for AC line fuse applications. A point I made earlier in the thread is that all of the comparisons that are reported seem to be between the stock fuse and one or more expensive fuses. But without a good understanding of the reasons for the sonic differences that are claimed, how do we know that a thorough comparison between a variety of ordinary fuses wouldn't result in comparable differences? Perhaps sonic differences would even be found between multiple examples of supposedly identical fuses. Best regards, -- Al |
"Perhaps sonic differences would even be found between multiple examples of supposedly identical fuses."
Good point (again)!
Hopefully, someone out there convinced expensive fuses are a good deal might listen this time.
As pointed out earlier, fuses are "Sacrificial" resistance devices. Their very purpose is to fail under certain circumstances. There is no rule that says the failure is a binary event. Intermediate states of degradation is likely. Periodic replacement with any good quality fuse of the proper specs may be a wise move if sound quality is suspect in some way.
Any fuse in good condition may sound similarly better compared to an older fuse, regardless of cost or how constructed. It all depends!
This is my last post about fuses! It's been real..... |
Mapman wrote,
"This is my last post about fuses! It's been real....."
Thank goodness.
:-) |
I have taken the hifi tuning Supreme fuses and directly compared them in my system to the synergistic research fuses,they both are very good.
I have found the Hifituning fuses have great clarity and resolution without being bright, where the Synergistic fuses have very good balance but have more meat on them great presentation.this being the case .i went with what
I learned long ago,you want the absolute most resolution and detail going to your dac or cd player and preamp,that being said the Synergistic research fuses are a great match for the power amp .
The combination is excptional now.my ayon Skylla -2 dac preamp
Has 11 fuses and directional ,getting the layout from the company was a big plus.One thing needs to be mentioned .Ayon mentioned this to me
Steel fuses can vary more then 15 percent that is why if all possibly
I go up one size if possible from 500 ma to 650, 1A to 1.25. The 3.125
For he rectifier they even recommended to go to a 4A that is a big jump
For I cooked a 3.125 A fuse to the output tube on startup .i am sure others
Have encountered this.pretty expensive at over$50 bucks a pop. |
Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water.
The WA Quantum Chips from Germany come in a variety of, uh, formulations. One of the formulations is intended for fuses. In fact, the fuse type WA Quantum Chip will be incorporated into all Hi Fi Tuning fuses in the future.
Web site for WA Quantum Chip at:
http://www.kempelektroniks.com/Accessoires/WA-Quantum-Chips-(1).aspx |
Geoffkait, actually WA Quantum has fuses with their Chips on them. There is an interrelationship between WA Quantum and HiFi Tuning. The fuse chips have great benefit on all fuses I have tried. Indeed, the Chips work well in every application where I have tried them. Why they work I don't know, but work they most definitely do. |
Tgb wrote,
"Why they work I don't know, but work they most definitely do."
Can we rule out vibration control?
;-)
|
Question. If you have a fuse holder do the chips go on the side of the fuse? |
Geofffkait, the effects of those for speakers are so different from one location to another that you might expect that. Those on cables suggest otherwise. They are hard to get to stick to nylon covers. I carefully pressed them around the speaker cables and found a big improvement. One night while still enjoying them, I noticed that one was just hanging by one corner. When rewrapped it and held it fast with tape, it sounded the same. On fuses, the Cable Company suggested putting them on the ends on the sides or the ends themselves depending on where your fuse contacts were. I experimented with each as well as in the center. I don't know where vibration would most affect a fuse. Finally for those for transformers, I experimented with putting it on the core, on the windings, and on the screw down. All locations sounded the same.
All of these experiences cause me to doubt that they are vibration dampening. I cannot think of better tests of this hypothesis.
Ozzy, as I said above, I don't think it matter much where you put the Chip. |
Tbg, you might have missed the smiley face after what I had intended to be a tongue in cheek comment regarding vibration control. Perhaps there's a clue in the name, WA Quantum Chip. Hmmmm....... |
Hifitime,
While what you're saying is absolutely true, because the sound/electricity is theoretically modulated by what it passes through and because you can't actually hear each and every one of these changes, it ultimately doesn't matter. Let me explain:
Let us say that the sound passes through copper, silver, aluminum, copper, in that order. It provides sound A. Another time it passes through aluminum, copper, copper, aluminum, silver. This is sound B. Even though both create a different sound, perhaps better, perhaps worse, adding yet another metal will likely change the sound again and replacing one of these metals may improve the sound; I would find it difficult to believe that adding more transitions would improve the sound, but if you replace an inferior conductor with a superior one that could improve sound.
Anyway, my point is that, regardless of how many metals the sound has moved through becomes somewhat irrelevant since it still produces a final sound you have to live with on a daily basis and MIGHT be able to be improved upon. That said, I'm not trying to defend any particular 'tweak', just saying it is a theoretically attainable end I think.
As an aside, when I type your name into my iPad hifitime, it tried to write "hotly me". Does your name have a secret meaning perhaps? ;) |
Anyway, my point is that, regardless of how many metals the sound has moved through becomes somewhat irrelevant since it still produces a final sound you have to live with on a daily basis and MIGHT be able to be improved upon. That said, I'm not trying to defend any particular 'tweak', just saying it is a theoretically attainable end I think. A one inch fuse changing the sound after passing all of those various metals still makes no sense. As an aside, when I type your name into my iPad hifitime, it tried to write "hotly me". Does your name have a secret meaning perhaps? ;)
Aewhistory (Threads | Answers | This Thread) It's your ipad, not mine. Does the ipad have a history of searching for similar entries you may have made? I'm just an audio person. Maybe your ipad needs a designer fuse... No secret meaning though. |
I received a Synergistic Research SR20 fuse last week. I never expected it, but the darn thing does smoke the HiFi-Tuning Supreme fuse in my system.
When I finally added the WA-Quantum fuse chip, it added the same effects as it did on my HiFi-Tuning Supreme.
I know that people dispute all of this about fuses and the fuse chips, but are they expensive tweaks? I have a Furutech, a HiFi-Tuning and a Synergistic Research fuse at about $210.00 and three WA-Quantum fuse chips for $27.00.
This much of an investment in tweaks is throw away money compared to my system and all of the revisions and upgrades that I've been through and probably a large percentage of systems on Audiogon.
A $70.00 fuse and $9.00 chip is a tiny expense in the grand scheme of things. If it works like it did in my system, great! If it doesn't, it's $80.00. I wish that was all the extra money I've spent through the years.
Chuck |
"This much of an investment in tweaks is throw away money compared to my system"
I suppose it depends on how valuable the difference is, is there a cheaper way to accomplish the same results, and how much throw away money one has. |
Anyone tried the Synergistic fuse on Magnepans (3.7)? |
Krell_man, I didn't find the large fuse WA-Quantum chip sounded any different than the small Chip.
Mapman, obviously Krell is not talking about everyone, but if you are attending Audiogon, you can afford the fuses and chips. |
"Mapman, obviously Krell is not talking about everyone, but if you are attending Audiogon, you can afford the fuses and chips."
Maybe, but I really prefer fish and chips! :) |
No fuses just neodymium magnets for me.. Wonder if the Chips could possibly improve the magnets. Tom |
Theaudiotweak, I tried the magnets. They were not my cup of tea. Who knows if the Chips would work on them, since we have not idea how they work. |
Norm
Other than mechanically grounding my entire audio system the magnets were and still are the biggest single improvement I have made in my hi-fi. Tom |
Theaudiotweak, what does "mechanically grounding" your entire system mean? Is it removing vibration? If so, I entirely agree. With the StillPoints stuff, especially the Ultra Fives, I really have the magic of realism. |
Tbg,
How are you liking your BMC speakers so far? What are you using to drive them?
I don't suppose there are fuses in the crossovers... |
Grindstaff, it is a long story but they will be arriving this week. Your question is a good one. I would expect no fuses in the crossovers, but I will check. Since I heard a pair of Arcadia speakers September that had been playing for about a month and at the RMAF heard them again and they were much better, I expect, it will be a month before they are near their best. |
Hasse, I've tried the new synergistic fuses on the 1.7's. Huge difference! Huge soundstage, deeper more tuneful bass and so much more detail. All the while smooth. Highly recommended. (I've tried Hifi Tuning & Furutech's before this). |
