Naysayers don't realize importance of the fuse and its influence on the sound. Just to test it I removed fuse once from my amplifier and sound was gone. I mean gone completely. Fuses are absolutely necessary for good sound. |
I've never tried better fuses but if it's only placebo effect that's OK too, as long as it works for you. Enjoy the improvement but don't do any double blind tests because you might loose all the effect. |
Wolf_garcia, Forever? What about house wiring. You have no idea how long and painful it was to pull and reinsert wires in opposite direction. I'm working on power company to do the same but for some reason they are very resistant to this idea (definitely not audiophiles) |
Bryon, If these fuses make "major difference in sound" as Tbg stated then why manufacturer's don't install them in gear they sell - they do install many other expensive parts. Perhaps they feel that the difference in not so "major" (if any) and not worth price increase (even when amp costs $50k). Do you know of any manufacturer, even very pricey one, that installs "supreme" fuses in stock gear? |
I just think that if there is really a "major difference in sound" manufacturers would upgrade their fuses. Power cords either don't cause "major" difference" or manufacturer assumes you replace them to your liking. Unfortunately fuse in my Rowland 102 is inside protected by 5 years of warranty that is void upon opening of the unit. Why then Rowland decided to use standard fuses? Manufacturer's use other expensive components like Teflon caps - why wouldn't they change component that causes "major sound difference"?
Take into consideration that thermal energy to melt the fuse is described by I^2*t factor. With the same time and same current resistance of the fuse has to be pretty much the same to cause the same amount of heat, unless melting temperature is way lower - not likely with the silver in comparison to low melting point of special alloys used in fuse construction.
Don't get me wrong - I've never tried Hi-Fi fuses, but before I pay $100 per piece I'd like to understand why manufacturers don't use them and how they were able to reduce voltage drop without use of special alloys. |
Well, if this is an issue of lower voltage drop or microphonics then I will pass, since my amp has line/load regulated power supply while case is made of solid billet of aluminum - not likely to vibrate. |
"A good design will minimize or eliminate sensitivity to those differences, within the range over which they can be expected to occur"
Exactly. I'm surprised that people can hear difference in DACs and preamps - electronics that has regulated power supplies and draws low and pretty much constant current. |
Marakanetz, don't forget that for Russian Orthodox fuse should always point to the east while for Muslims direction of Mecca is pretty much mandatory. |
Tbg wrote: "None of this discussion matters much to me. I am merely stating my experiences"
Tbg, It is discussion forum. If discussion does not matter to you then perhaps fuse REVIEW would be a better format? Once discussion started (with your participation) it would be polite IMHO to avoid such comments. |
Bryon, Roger talks about any detectable change in sound while we discuss here if "major difference in my sound" that Tbg experienced can be repeated and benefit others. |
Mapman, that's true but if you take into consideration things like purity of metal, resistance, inductance, capacitance, dielectric constant and absorption it will be all multiplied by hundreds in power cable simply because of the length not to mention things that don't even apply like shielding. I'm only skeptical about "major difference in sound" in my system. |
Mapman, Now I'm 100% sure we're going nowhere, since you brought wives into discussion. |
Bryon, I'm trying to make some sense of this as well. I don't question Tbg experience but am skeptical, as I was long time ago with cables. It is always important to be informed and that was done thanks to this thread. |
"Now when I hear a consensus that clear major differences can be heard in a predictable manner, I tend to take more notice"
I'm also wary of small tweaks, since my hearing is perhaps less than perfect, but I have to admit that some small tweaks worked for me in the past, including more consistent sound without clapper. |
Mapman, If you open your mind too much your brain will fall out. |
He also says:
"I do not hear more clarity, increase in soundstage or other things many people claim"
He also mentions:
"we made arrangement with the distributor for some Spectron discount"
which sounds to me like marketing ploy.
"Am I asking to get fried?" - Yes, you do!
|
Bryon, Imagine that you listen to your system at 5:50PM to establish a baseline and again with new fuse at 6:00PM. At 6:00PM radio stations cut power in half according to FCC regulations - you detected improvement. Now you test other fuses. You already know that original stock fuse was not as good as expensive fuses, therefore you believe in differences between them. Once you believe there are likely differences (or perhaps wife keeps adjusted dimmer switch) you will hear it . It is difficult to eliminate all influences including movement/position of cables during fuse replacement, not to mention placebo effect. You move your amp to change fuse direction and cables got better contact - improvement in sound. Now when you change direction again placebo effect is much stronger since you already heard improvement one way. |
Bryon, be sure to turn OFF and UNPLUG! Do test with preamp (regulated supplies) as well. Good luck. |
Bryon, Be sure that you don't have any DC on power line. Electrons in the fuse wire don't move with AC (vibrate in place) but with DC they will very slowly move (called "drift velocity") from your expensive fuse into home wiring.
Don't let expensive electrons, that you paid for, drift away! |
Mapman, you're right. It is law of proportions - I wouldn't pay $100 for the fuse for my $1k DAC but wouldn't hesitate with $10k DAC. Buyer's remorse would be quickly replaced by buyer's denial so strong, that even fact that these fuses have not been tested or approved by any agency, wouldn't matter. |
Good test, good method, good attitude, good system, good to know.
I realize subjective nature of this test but my ears and my gear are not better than yours while we're not subjectively evaluating change if there is none (or almost none). Great job! |
Bryon, Perhaps your hands were too slow to keep same direction 60 times a second? |
Bryon, It is natural to keep searching and testing, but
"Time comes when design engineer has to be shot so that design can be released to production" |
Rodman99999, Power supply is in the output stage to some degree. When power supply has no load regulation and amplifier has zero feedback then performance of the power supply (including inductance and ESR of big caps, resistance of the fuses etc.) plays part. Amp's negative feedback of 40dB would reduce this effect 100 times while regulated power supply would make it at least another 100 times better, and that's what is inside of my amp - at least 10,000 times reduction of power supply effects. As Al stated - don't look for any scientific explanation of the fuses. It is sort of "audio magic" thing. We don't even know if 3A Hi-Fi fuse is not really 3.5 or 4A standard fuse since AFAIK there is no test or approval of any agency. I wonder if datasheet, showing performance curves is available. I doubt that silver has lowest resistance times melting temperature factor since fuse companies developed special alloys (often lead&tin sometimes with cadmium and small amounts of bismuth and silver). I also don't know how gold plating improves things, since gold is relatively poor conductor. Another thing is directionality of resistance. Somebody suggested that direction that wire was drawn is causing it. I conducted test, a while ago, on spool of about 4000' of wire and resistance was identical, as far as I could measure with 6 digit Multimeter. |
Bryon, thanks for the info. Both were pretty much the same as stock fuses, per your test, so I checked only Supremes and could not find any safety approval. There are better returns for my money in audio, as Mapman suggested, since I'm not "there" yet working currently on room acoustics. Also idea of investing in something designed to fail would make me feel bad. Hi-Fi fuses are not very common so this thread looks a little like support group:
"Hello, my name is Joe and I listen to fuses"
"Hi, Joe" |
Credence?
"Hmmmm...one wonders if Bryon Cunningham installed some of the fuses incorrectly during his recent testing of aftermarket fuses"
"I have lost faith in ANY tests of fuses unless the person performing the tests is already familiar with the difference in sound fuse direction makes"
"Well, I hate to judge before all the facts are in but I suppose there is some possibility that the unclean contacts masked the results of the fuse tests."
"Bryon is kind of an exception, since he cannot yet prove to himself that new fuses or fuse directionality are as important as everyone says" |
Knghifi, That's just what Bryon is saying. Boys must believe otherwise since they suggest he cannot hear what he hears in his system:
"Hmmmm...one wonders if Bryon Cunningham installed some of the fuses incorrectly during his recent testing of aftermarket fuses"
"I have lost faith in ANY tests of fuses unless the person performing the tests is already familiar with the difference in sound fuse direction makes"
"Well, I hate to judge before all the facts are in but I suppose there is some possibility that the unclean contacts masked the results of the fuse tests."
"Bryon is kind of an exception, since he cannot yet prove to himself that new fuses or fuse directionality are as important as everyone says" |
Al, I agree - It doesn't make any sens. 5A slow fuse (3AG Littelfuse) has about 0.02 ohm.
Let assume that another fuse is 0.01 ohm - twice better (hard to believe). The difference of 0.01 ohm is equivalent to about 3 feet of gauge 12 (1.6mohm/ft) house wiring (counting both ways). It would mean that 3' power cord would sound significantly better than 6' cord not to mention differences between rooms or houses that would be huge. |
