I should add this bit of news,the HiFi Supreme fuses will do the job of protecting your gear and they can be destroyed just like any other fuse,I know this from painful experience.
A 500 ma fuse will self destruct when inserted into a 5 amp holder.
The 5 amp fuse was fine in the .5 amp spot.
So much for worries about reliabilty and protection issues concerning the HiFi Supreme fuses.
They do what they are supposed to and sound better in the process. |
Does anyone remember Peter Aczel, the Audio Critic?
Way back in my audio salad days he said the fuses used to protect speakers were degrading the sound of the speakers.
He never explained why or how just that they did.
Most folks with Maggies like me tried omitting the fuse and yes the sound was better.
I used to use romex snipped to size with exposed tips.
Very easy for the fuse skeptics who own fuse protected speakers to give this a try, Just don't be foolhardy, act with caution, they are your speakers afterall.
Well I had no bad luck, even when I bypassed speaker protection fuses in some of my tube and solid state power amps.
When the Iso Cleans came out I tried them because I already had expereince with how degrading fuses can be.
The treat would be better sound WITH protection.
Yes the upgraded fuses were less veiling than the stock fuses, very similar to bypassing the fuse altogether.
Some may say that just the action of inserting fuses is akin to plugging and unplugging interconnects for example, that you're cleaning the contacts.Also how old are those fuses you've been using?
But it's esy enough to swap old for Supremes back and forth and have a listen, but you have to listen to specific instruments,like cymbals(my choice).
Are they more solid, or tinny,is there more or less sheen and shimmer? Is the decay longer and more pronounced?
You need to learn how to listen for differences.
If you don't know how to listen critically and get lost up in the music, you'll have a hard time hearing any improvement.
Also have you done all that you can with your gear and the power going into it so that differences can be more noticeable?
Too many times people get frustrated and write off things like fuses, power cords etc,because they either expect a single fuse or power cord to transform an entry level system into a High End one, or they just haven;'t learned how to critique the sound of their system.
You have to wear two hats in this game.
Sometime you don the cap of the music lover ,but other times you need to separate the music from the gear and fixate on the gear.
Don't worry if someone calls you a gear head.
Sometimes to get the most music out of the gear you have to do more than turn the stuff on.
Don't expect the "Magic" to happen if you don't do your part.
The "magic" begins when you start to clean up all the loose ends,get rid of the weak links, and tune your ears as well as the gear.
If you roll tubes and like to upgrade caps in old amps because it makes them sound better,a fuse upgrade should be your cup of tea. |
Whether HiFi Supremes are better than the Iso Cleans,I can't say.I have no experience with any of the other HiFI fuses in the test and I have no expereince with the gear they were used in.I appreciate the effort and respect the findings.How could I argue with them?I wasn't there.
What I can state is that the IsoCleans bettered the stock fuse in the following components, Classe Dr 8 mono blocks,
power conditioner from Foundation research,a Cary SET 300B,and an EAD DVD player.
And the HiFi Supremes have improved the sound in a Manley Steelhead and a pair of Acoustat tube servo amps over their stock fuses.
All gear had to be turned off then on and off again,so that I could start with stock fuse, then Supreme, then back to stock and then Supreme.
I listened to the exact same music track and focused on background detail and the cymbal work.
My observations were that the initial impression of going to the Supreme fuse was favourable, every time. Listening without it less so and then back to satisfactory on the final insertion of the Supreme fuse.
I feel that the degradations of plugging and unplugging were evenly split in this manner.
I also listened with the Supremes in after a few days of play and also noticed a further refinement in the sound.
Well known music used for comparison purposes over years of gear swaps, exposed the increase in detail and body that the Supreme fuses were now providing.
I re-state that I didn't have any other types of fuses to compare the Supremes to, just the stock fuses,other fuses may or may not be better at any price points.
The important thing is that a fuse does affect the sound of what it's used in.
It's just as important as anything else. Because fuses can be constructed differently, like tubes and wires are made up of different materials,why is it hard to understand that they can also sound different from one another?
Cardas products are constructed differently than Nordost, and you can hear the difference and it's your choice what sound you like.
Everything does something to the sound,to state that the fuse can have no impact on sound quality lumps it into the realm of all amps sound the same.
I would presume that most folks on this site could be able to discerne the sonic traits of an EL 34, 300B or 6550 tube, and never state that they all sound the same.
So why should the fuse be different?
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I never was one to seek out scientific proof about how any piece of my gear sounds.
I either like it or I don't.
It's an improvement or it's not and I won't try and tell anyone it's 2% or 20% or 200% better.
Night and day differences for me have all been in the past.
It's all shadings now, once you get past entry level gear.
It's also cumulative.
For the folks who like to grade system tweaks, the more 1% improvements you make eventually they add up to a 20% improvement or more.
Science hasn't yet given us all the answers to everything outside of this hobby either.
Neither do reviews give us all the answers, they are specific to who is doing the review and the gear is specific to them.
I can say that the Supreme fuses improve my sound, in my system, but I can't say they will do it yours, or that you could hear the difference in my system.Or that something is wrong with you if you can't.
Some folks make a big point out of the fact that they don't trust their ears,that the ears can be tricked(and provide the scientific proof of such claims, when provoked)so that for them to get a handle on things like fuses, they need proof in the form of a scientific white paper.
I've often thought that these types of audiophiles don't need to even buy audio gear,all they should need for musical enjoyment would be the sheet music.
I've always only had my ears to rely on, and I've been fortunate to have had some friends who were able to indulge in some very costly systems, that did in fact deliver on the goods.It was an education.
They didn't get their money by being fools, they didn't spend their money like fools and they weren't foolish enough to think that out of the box and into the wall was the only way to go.
The more you dable in this hobby and the more experience you have with being able to pick up on subtle as well as profound changes, the more things like fuses should make sense.
What I find so intriguing is that even at 100 bucks a pop,an upgraded fuse in a well tweeked system is about as cheap as it gets, and is so simple that anyone can "mod" their gear this way.
Scientific proof?
I don't need any,to me it's as simple as replacing a burned out light bulb, I know that works, don't care how.
I can see it with my own eyes.
Replace a stock fuse with a Supreme and I can hear the improvement.Don't care how it works.
I can hear it with my own ears. |
I once replaced a stock 15 amp fuse with an Iso Clean 15 A in a Foundation Research power cord/conditioner and noticed an improvement.
Will there be a new even better fuse on the horizon? I would think there will be,that's the way of all things in this hobby. |
Bryon that was a great response.
Reading it now, after I started the why do we argue post, summed up what I have been trying to say in a most elegant manner.
My amazement is that we are arguing about a device that costs less than 100 bucks.
It's not out of reach for anyone in this hobby.
Certainly not as out of reach as lets's say an MBL speaker and some Soulution gear is.
Really?If the fuse cost $1000.00 I would understand.
I've had first hand experience being ganged up on and ridiculed.Then fighting back and getting the upper hand with a few choice phrases,always followed by attempts of childish humour from the wounded.
I know that the cost of the most highly rated audiophile gear is outlandish and has created some bad feelings about the hobby.
At one time, such top flight gear was affordable and even I had some of the top TAS and Phile rated gear.
But we are talking chump change here.
You've hit the nail Bryon, it's not about the cost, or the fuse, it's all about who wants to be King of the Hill.
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Pack, I hear you.
Been there done that, but prefer the safety of having the HiFi Supremes.
Before they came along I lived on the edge as you are now.
No arguments from me, no fuse is the best way to go soundwise.Goes way back to the late 70's, re Peter Aczel.
You have found out first hand what so many here fail to understand, the fuse compromises the sound. |
Hifitime,consider this,I have not said that the upgraded fuse has a sound, per se, but I have said that stock fuses can impede or colour the sound of the components in the chain that use them.
For instance, take my Manley Steelhead, it had a very acceptable sound on it's own with the stock fuse.
Adding the Supreme fuse only enhanced what I already liked about the Steelhead's sound.
It didn't alter it or change the sound in any way that I would not be able to ditinguish it from what it is.In other words ,the upgraded fuse did not mask or alter the sonics, It just let the sonics come thru clearer.I could not confuse the Stellhead with any other phono stage.
I know this is hard to comprehend if you haven't had the experience,but this is what happens in my system.
Every component that I've put a Supreme fuse in, has benefited in the same way.
Even my Decware Zen amp sounded fuller with the fuse than without it.
But the fuse didn't transform the DecWare into a Krell.It didn't turn two watts into two hundred.
If this is what some expect from an upgraded fuse, then they will be disappointed.
Perhaps this is the problem with tweaks.After reading about what they can do from happy users, some folks expectations are overly enthusiastic and when not met, the tweak is written off as snake oil.
Saddly I think this happens quite often, and if the disatisfied tweaker is more of a music first gear second type, then he may never be able to pick up on the subtle changes that can come about after a single tweak.
Also,single tweaks seldom are life changing events.
Like I mentioned, you won't transform your Nad into a Krell with a 100 buck fuse, but you will make that Nad sound better than it did.
In other words you will get more of the Nad sound that you paid for.
So there's no need to search for proof that the fuse can change the sound,if by change, one means morphing from B to A, it's more like B being improved to B+.
This is measureable with the greatest devices known to man, our ears.
Afterall, that's what we use when we enjoy the music.
When all is said and done, after all the science and snake oil and after the last spec has been documented,all we are left with is our ears.
And whether they are lying to us or not(hifi is just a lie)our ears are what we have to depend on.Unless you don't listen and just measure of course.
I've heard and read about amplifiers that have terrible measurements, but sound very natural and pleasing, and some amps with great specs can be fatiguing and not pleasant to listen to.
That should be enough to tell you that the specs and measurements aren't everything you need to guarantee that you will enjoy a component.They haven't been able to measure all aspects of the audio experience as of yet.Or tell us why we like some gear and not others with similar specs.
Do you believe that two amplifiers with identical specs but different topologies and components would sound the same?Would one amp using cheap caps, transformers and wire and another using upgraded caps, silver wound transformers and silver wire sound the same?
Are all mods just snake oil?
Again, I'm not anti spec anti science, but I don't think we have learned it all either.
Hifitime, I would ask you if you have ever experimented with a short simple piece of wire in place of the stock fuse you must be using?
Then try a thicker piece of solid core copper, or try silver and listen in place of the fuse.
Or you could try any number of simple pieces of wire as speaker cables.
One thing I would guarantee is that if you hear no differences in this case, then you will surely hear no differences in fuses either.
And you will get no argument from me. |
I just read a review of the new mono blocks in the Brit mag,HiFi News from darTZeel,NHB-458.
It states that for the first time in place of the fuse he is using a thermal switch.
More costly than using HiFi Supremes but also much better I am sure.
Perhaps the next logical step for fellow fusers to take. |
Hifitime, that's good news that you are not a solitary audiophile.
I belong to a little audio group which gets together every week on a rotational basis to listen to socialize and listen to new tunes and the occassional piece of new gear.
Saddly ,as we get older(we've been doing this for 15 years plus, and used to belong to the WNYAS)our purchases seem to be less frequent.
I know the benefits of group participation, and getting feedback from others when you contemplating a move in a new direction.
Also, if other's ears are hearing what you are hearing, it's a good bet you aren't imagining things.
This is so much better than being an audio hermit.
You can benefit and grow from experiencing different systems in different homes.
It also doesn't hurt if one or more members have deep pockets.
The most beneficial lesson I learned was how important the delivery of electricity is to the sound of our gear, and how it can affect the sound, from the panel to the fuse and everywhere in between.
I would suggest that you take a poll in your group about what is the most common fuse you may share.
Then chip in, buy the fuse and send it around to audition in whatever component it is matched for.
I think this would be a fun thing for a group of audiophiles to do, and you may be surprised with the outcome.
It may make an improvement in all or some of the gear, but at least it will be some added infotainment, and hopefully you'll post what you find out.
We are supposed to be an audio community,we don't always agree on everything and we all don't own the same systems,but what we do share is our passion for the hobby.
If your passion is to obtain the best sound you can, as it appears,then try out the fuse test with your friends. |
The engineers had profit in mind, and so does the designer,manufacturer,dealer, all down the line.
Using a cheap fuse is cheap.
Designing a protection circuit without a fuse isn't.
Sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings.
Cheap fuses work, they do what they are supposed to do, unless of course they are defective.
Consider how many cheap fuses have been made over the years and how many of those are still functioning perfectly in whatever gear they came in.
Why would an upscale fuse,with claims of better materials and construction be more suspect to fail than the mass produced fuses?
I don't see the logic.
Why, this could lead one to conclude that amplifiers built in small numbers by artisans would be more susceptible to breakdown and repair than the amps produced for the masses made in large numbers by large corporations.
I had a nice DecWare SET amp that never let me down and sounded quite a bit better than my Yamaha reciever.
Which is as it should be isn't it?
So why would a designer fuse be anything but better?
And ,if anyone is doubting that the HiFi Supremes won't protect your gear, you would be wrong.
They'll pop and protect your gear if you place the wrong fuse in the wrong place.
Lesson learned. |
I should have known better, and should have used a magnifying glass to check which original fuse was the 5 amp and which was the 1.5
The more robust looking original fuse I mistook for the 5 amp fuse.The 5 amp fuse was actually the thin single wire, the 1.5 had a spring type coil inside.
There were no markings on the Acoustat servo amps designating fuse values.
Initially I thought I had a problem somewhere else.
I re-installed the stock fuses and everything was fine.
Upon closer examinationation of the value etched onto the fuses I discovered my error.
I had to re-order another pair of 1.5 fuses,and have had no problems ever since.
As simple as simple gets.
Just remember to always look at the fine print. |
It's been a couple of weeks since I put the WA chips on my 4 HiFi Supreme fuses in my Acoustat servo amps.
The direction of the fuse does make a difference,more evident with the chips.
A cheap, but worthwhile tweak to the HiFi Supreme fuse,a real bargain if it improves a stock fuse. |
I can also say that the AMR with the WA Chips are even better. |
I've tried to contact the North American distributor for AMR to purchase some fuses,as I can't find a AMR dealer in Canada.
So far no response.
Krell man, what's your source?
Thanks. |
Avatar is the AMR North American distributor that I contacted.
Still no reply.
I have a few friends who are interested, so I am looking at a dozen or more fuses.
Perhaps they've taken the jet for a Christmas ride.
Does anyone know what dealerships they are affiliated with? |
Still no reply from Avatar(AMR), so the Supreme fuses went back in.
I had forgotten what they contributed to my enjoyment.
Took the WA chips off the stock fuses and re-applied to the Supremes.Don't do this too many times,less sticky each time you re-place them.
To sum up, until I can source some AMR fuses( slo blo-large size-.5 amp, and 5amp-two of each), the Supremes reign supreme in my system.
Going from stcok WA chipped fuse to WA chip Supremes was like changing to a nice tube amp from a decent solid state amp.
Or, I could say, it made my tube amps sound like better tube amps. |
Avatar/AMR got back to me.
I will be ordering fuses for my amps and for some of my friends.
I'll post again with my impressions compared to Supreme fuses, and with their impressions compared to stock fuses. |
I've received my shipment of AMR fuses.
Very good service from the folks at Avatar.
There were three of us in on the deal, so when all the impressions are in I'll post them.
One thing I would like to find out for us, is if there is any concensus on the proper direction the fuse should be positioned.
So far it's been with the writing facing towards the inside of the component.
I've told my friends to try both ways but they were wondering what others who have used the AMR golds have found to be the correct direction. |
My initial impression of the AMR fuses in my Acoustat servo amps is that they share all the positive attributes of the Supremme fuse for 1/4 the cost.
If there are any tradeoffs, in my system, the AMR fuses are a bit more mid range oriented,a bit less emphasis at the top and bottom extremes compared to the Supremes, but this isn't a deal breaker.
The cost is reasonable for the improvement the AMR golds make to my system .I like the Supremes,but they aren't 4 times better to my ears.
One of my other two friends purchased fuses for his Bryston power amp and Modwright pre amp.
He has informed me that his sound has improved and is very pleased he tried them.
The third fellow is away on vacation,so I'll have to wait for his impressions.
So far 2 out of 3.
Fuses do matter, and wherever they are used they are doing something to colour your sound.
The AMR fuses should be the first thing on everybody's to do wish list.
They are probably the least expensive wish list item you can find.
I haven't tried to re-direct the fuse,they are placed with the lettering from left to right.
They sound just fine this way,but perhaps why I feel they are a tad shy in the bottom end.
But the mids seem to be clearer, so it's a nice tradeoff to make.
I also replaced the fuses in my Depth sub and Maggie centre speaker in my HT system with AMR golds,haven't had the urge to leave the 2 channel system however. |
Pardon my inability to grasp the intent of your statement Tbg.
I stated that the AMR fuses made the same type of improvement in my amps as the 4 times more expensive Supremes.
If a buss fuse costs a buck,and an AMR Gold costs $20.00,which sounds almost as good as the Hifi supremes that I used which cost $80.00,my suggestion is that the AMR fuse is a good value compared to the Supreme fuse, which I still feel is better,but is it 4 times better than the AMR and 80 times better than a buss fuse?Let me know if that's your logic.
I used to bypass the fuses altogether and it cost me nothing to get better sound, so in that case,even spending a buck on a buss fuse is a waste of money because that one dollar buss fuse degrades the sound, whereas the free solid wire bypass improves the sound.Thanks Mr P. Aczel for bringing that to my attention in the late 1970's.
But while a solid chunk of wire,( eliminating the buss fuse) is an improvemnt, it gives no defence against an electronic mishap that could do considerable costly damage and which makes that one buck buss fuse seem like a real valueable investment afterall.
I guess I prefer to have my cake and eat it too.
Improved sound and protection.
That's the only logic I suggest. |
Why is it that the folks who use the AMR or Supremes( I've got both)describe the effects of the fuses with the same descriptive language?
Or, in other words,different gear, but a similar sonic description of the improvements.
My position then is that if $80.00 a fuse is all that's holding you back,then 20 bucks should make the investment a little easier to take.
Then if you like what 20 buck fuses have to offer, you can move up the food chain,the choice is yours.
My personal preference for the AMR fuses at the moment is that my amps are old,and if something goes south and takes a fuse with it, a 20 buck loss is easier to take.
Until I tried the AMR, all I had used were the Supremes in these amps besides the stock fuses.
The Supremes have become my spares, and when you need 4 of them for the amps , 80 bucks for the AMR compared to 320.oo for the Supremes makes sense to me,especially when I don't notice a great deal of difference.
Different colourations, but not as big a difference as between a stock fuse and a 20 buck AMR.
I think the fact that so many people have such low expectations of a 20 buck AMR fuse doing anything different than a stock fuse isn't really all that bad.
It provides bigger impact when someone finds out for themself. |
Having gone from HiFi Supremes with the WA chips to AMR golds, I was quite pleased as I've noticed before.
Interesting that Gbmcleod feels that the Supremes may have some bass limiting traits.
Interesting, because on another thread I posted that I found my Steelhead to be a bit thin sounding and was looking for some mods.
Well that was with the Supremes in my amps and in the Manley.
I don't feel that the Steelhead lacks weight since I installed the AMR fuses.
Next is to take the WA chips off the Supremes and apply them to the AMRs in the amps.
As a side note, The Lightspeed Attenuator has also added more flesh to my phono replay.I now alternately play cd and vinyl into it and use the fixed output from the Steelhead eliminating it's volume control.
If the chips further improve my sound, I don't think I have much else to do. |
The chips worked on my HifI supremes and on the AMR Golds.
Why,How?
Who cares. |
I am beginning to wonder if there is a synergy issue with some fuses working better in some gear(tubes) and some other fuses working better in solid state gear.
Maybe we should have a poll.
What fuses work best with tube gear-AMR, HiFI, SR?
What Fuses work best wih solid state-AMR,HiFI, SR?
We could narrow the search down to just replacing the fuse in the power amplifier.
I'll start and post that with modded Acoustat servo charge tube amps,the AMR with WA chips are what I now use. |
Just a short update.
A couple of my friends reported back that they are satisfied with the AMR fuses that they purchased.
The fellow with the Maggies noticed an improvemnt,just waiting for another update about how an AMR fuse does with his Rega amp.
A year ago, I wouldn't have been able to give them one for free to try in their gear for fear of some mishap.
I see some are still hesitant to try them,but the ones that can be replaced in the IEC power inlets most gear have doesn't require a degree in EE.
I can also state that a .5 amp fuse will blow if placed where a 5 amp fuse is supposed to be.
Lesson, always check the fine print on the fuse,now I use a magnefying glass.
I guess all the reviewers who show the innards of the gear they are reviewing have voided the warranties?
I'm curious,how about some references to the less risky tweaks?
I'm always open to investigate new ways to get better sound.
The upgraded fuses have been simple to install and not very costly(AMR-$20.00) and I've had no issues.
After all the more costly upgrades and tweaks I've used, I'd say they are a bargain.They do more for less than the other things I've tried.
So fill me in. |
Update,my friend reports that his AMR fuse for his Rega Elicit amp was the last tweak he feels that he needs to do.
He has been satisfied with his sound many times over the years, and that usually lasts for a few weeks, so if he keeps his system intact, then I would say the AMR or other upgrade fuse maybe the place to start and end in this hobby for some people.
I would suggest that anyone who is starting to tire of the sound of their system, or is looking for a change, that a $20.00 investment in an AMR fuse is the place to start.
If you are still disatisfied, then start on the buy/sell wagon and good luck. |
Over a year now and no problems with the HiFi Supremes in the servo amps. |
