Why does everything need to be polarized. Why do we have to pick one or the other. Most of us can afford to have both digital and analog sources. Wouldn't you rather have 2 lovers than one?
Funny how streaming/digital still chases that analog benchmark.
Funny how manufacturers of streaming and digital gear continues to chase that elusive analog sound. I thought digital was better?
Before you all get your panties in a wad I enjoy both Digital and Analog but much rather listen to an analog source than digital.
So today I see Innuos Introduces The PhoenixNET – A Network Switch For Audiophiles @ only $3500.00
Guess I do not see the point you can get superior sound for say $2500 or less with a decent turntable cartridge combo and phono stage. Hell Clear Audio has an all in one for $2500.
I just don’t get it and I do not care to either.
Before you all get your panties in a wad I enjoy both Digital and Analog but much rather listen to an analog source than digital.
So today I see Innuos Introduces The PhoenixNET – A Network Switch For Audiophiles @ only $3500.00
Guess I do not see the point you can get superior sound for say $2500 or less with a decent turntable cartridge combo and phono stage. Hell Clear Audio has an all in one for $2500.
I just don’t get it and I do not care to either.
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@millercarbon Joke all you want, you know it's true, the standard is analog. Digital is for when I think you ruffled feathers with that one. Funny thing is that nearly every review I read on DACS, etc is how close they sound to analog. The same happened earlier when CD's were all the rage. They touted how close to the analog sound the CDP came Actually @skypunk is right on target. You don't have to like the truth but disagreement with it makes you wrong. |
"Funny thing is that nearly every review I read on DACS, etc is how close they sound to analog." Could it be because people writing reviews are different crowd/demographics than most of the music listeners out there? They want what they decided it should be, not necessarily what is "better". People outside of this very small group of "audiophiles" cannot care less for analog sound. |
Digital *IS* better. Only the nostalgic oldies are chasing the old analog sound. People living in the 21st century are not. I have converted to digital and never looked back. I do have an old Linn Sondek but I like its LOOKS more than its sound. It is never able to come up to the dynamics and clarity of the digital sound. The clean, crisp and noise free sound and the ease of use of digital will beat 99% analogs hands down these days. Maybe not the ones costing over $50k or $60k, but then again, 99% of the people cannot afford that and it is irrelevant. |
I have never listened to lossless digital audio files, it seems to me once they are converted to audible sound of human vocals and instruments the medium returns to analog format...there for your listening to the dac vs recording... How much better is it vs Pandora, which sounds pretty good through xfininity 1 box to my receiver...quick response from the receiver-very distinct lows and miss, the piano sounds like it’s in my room and drum sticks hits on the kettle and snare are a thud...and I have access to music I have been denied by recording studios on vinyl..let’s face it, it doesn’t matter what or how we listen..for me, I love my vinyl, it has a different more tangible sound than digital, you tend to hear more of how it was recorded and with digital it’s more cold sterile and super accurate...the best car analogy is a Ferrari vs Tesla S...the Ferrari allows you to experience so much more of the sounds and texture of the music, the Tesla is like the linearity, it’s quiet, you know it’s on by looking at the lights when the accelerator is engaged you get the high pitch wind and go quickly without fuss as the computer processes the information as it has been told..we all have preferences..I had no point just an analysis of digital and analog domains...no back to my listening to free internet radio.. my next analysis will be FM vs AM-why Bluetooth matters.. I miss FM radio rock stations |
" The standard has, for decades now, been digital. 17-year-olds do not even know what you are talking about." ............. That’s hilarious. Kind of proves the point that analog is the standard digital attempts to copy.... flattery as its known..... But here is reality....most 17 year olds don’t know wt_ they are talking about let alone understand any of us.... head down face in the phone with ear buds on.....yeah ok..... Digital has come a very long way, seriously. However.....when a piece of vinyl hits it apex in playback. ..digital is still just trying to be that.... Why not just enjoy the choice and accept reality. One has been trying to sound like the other since the very early eighties..... Its funny ..... the argument that oh I can access a kajillion songs streaming.....but if a guy owns over 9000 lp’s. ..the same wet blankets say you could never listen to them all.... it would take years... Just accept it....our human ears are tuned analog....its natural ...... I’m thankful for all playback options....but R2R and vinyl are what came before digital. Digital that’s spent 40 years trying to imitate what tape and vinyl already can playback.... I get it ...vinyl is more work and gotten even more expensive. ...so I can see why some dont want to or have the funds it can cost even with just the lp’s cost... The rest well...just too lazy to put the cheezies down....😉 All kidding aside, accept the part that R2R / vinyl are the standards all digital looks to be... Chill out....make it about the music.... whatever the format. But in my living room it Has2be vinyl or R2R even the tuna gets time in while cooking..... Digital in the car, on the bike, on the trails.... To me it’s "best feature" is its portability...... |
Why is MC calling people perverts when MC himself has no ears or a decent system that he can actually hear a difference in SQ between sources? IMO, digital has left vinyl behind years ago. With hi res, dsd, MQA, and with the newer better dacs out there, digital has gotten much better. There is no “reference” tt setup for $2500. A decent cartridge costs more than that. A good tonearm is $3000 minimum, and the tt itself is more. You can get a music hall tt with a grado mm cartridge using a built in phono preamp that will play records which will cost $1000-$1500, but it’s not going to sound that good, been there, done that. I also had a very nice tt setup that cost more tan a Toyota Corolla and still prefer digital.It’s also true that a good sounding dac is going to cost around $7000 and up. |
@glupson People outside of this very small group of "audiophiles" cannot care less for analog sound.Yep. Yer right. Most listen to mp3's and have no clue about bitrate or codecs, etc. Cheap & convenient is what they want. Digital does fulfill that. Still doesn't change the fact that digital is and always has been chasing analog @cakyol Only the nostalgic oldies are chasing the old analog sound. People living in the 21st century are notIndeed, and among those " nostalgic oldies " is a 40 yr old named Digital. FWIW, many of us sold or got rid of our albums for the new improved perfect sound forever. We wanted to believe it was better because it was so convenient & new. Then in the 90's someone pulled out their albums and listened to it and began to question whether the digital format was really better. Then slowly we began to realize it really wasn't. My 20 yr old Dual rivaled my $2300 CDP. I bought many VG+-NM albums for ten cents apiece. Hardly ever paid more than $1. Fortunately I have 4K albums so I don't need anymore. But if what you say is true, WHY aren't the albums still $1 apiece? No, they start at $20. $8-10 is the lowest prices I've seen for used VG+. That is usually not the popular ones. They sell for $15 in 2021 & have for 4-5 yrs now. All that said, I still ordered a Streamer/Dac today. The reason is convenience. At this age I can foresee a day that may come sooner than I like which I will need the convenience of digital. And I still have & play my CDP because some good music never was cut on vinyl. And sometimes, I like the convenience. . |
@cakyol.....I've been listening to the over 9000 lp's dufus's got rid of for pennies in the eighties on a a kick ass system... Don't use the crap about digital recording like your the only one who knows.... I am very aware.....my ears...my ears....my ears...Did it sink in....want to make sure you heard it...in digital some of the information is dropped... Oh. .but you must be one of those special people that can't hear it.....or won't. ...or thinks it's still natural sounding..... The fact vinyl has been recorded digitally such as Dire Straights as an early example means sfa to the fact digital is still trying to be analog..... I don't have to ask an engineer. ..your making assumptions. .. Perhaps you should ask the engineer if he wants it to sound digital....just what is he attempting to do in his manipulation of those bits... Another assumption on your part....the vintage of the vast majority of lp's I own...and why.. .. I use tubes in my pre...phono...and amp too...care to make more assumptions about those choices too... |
Let’s keep both, one for background every day music, workouts, cars, work, new music discoveries and music surfing, lazy listening..... another one for listening of favorite music in no rush, paired with glass of Blue Label, critical approach and best emotions. Mig-29 is history now. SU-57 is new really. |
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Of course a digital stream is a replica of the original master. The musicians record to digital or a master is, there is a mix, and the mix is streamed. And then some want to use a vinyl storage medium. So the mix needs to be cut, with a machine cutting a replica of the signal. Then the replica cut has to be turned into a metal replica of the replica cut. Then the metal replica has to be replicated into many replica stampers. Then the replica stampers - getting older and worse every stamp - produce a replica vinyl. Then your needle vibrates in an approximation of this latest replica of the replica of the replica of the replica of the original sounds. But wait! where has all the bass gone? Oh, it’s not there! It has to be replicated in the phono stages. I love it when old folks say digital is not the “real music” when they spend years and £10000s arsing about changing their sound with different belts, arms, platters, cartridges, phono stages, buying multiple copies to get a better pressing, etc. You can’t have it both ways. Digital advocates are more honest, perhaps. Vinyl advocates should just admit it - they are chasing the memory of sound they grew up with, and their ageing ears prefer it because back then technical limitations meant the compromises favoured a range of frequencies which are the only ones these guys can still hear anyway. It’s why mid-range crooners and instruments are so popular with vinyl audiophiles. |
I’m sorry but really??? Another nonsense thread about digital vs analogue.. “don’t get me wrong some of my best friends are digital, but it’s just not natural, not what god intended, etc etc repeat, repeat... anyone who doesn’t see it my way is a fool and on, and on... If the fear of being left behind and something causes you so much discomfort or stress, then why not look away, do something else?? Rather than post pointless antagonistic nonsense. I’m quite new to Audiogon and on the whole I’ve found it an education and thoroughly enjoyable hearing from people who know more than me on many subjects, but I’m finding the recent string of “people who stream are idiots” threads authored by frightened Luddites is really exhausting. Hifi and music and the enjoyment of both has for me at least, been kept exciting for the last 30 years by new an innovative forms of both arriving in regular intervals. New tech developed on the margins of electronics like hifi, largely by passionate enthusiasts with a vocation, never arrives perfectly formed. It takes time to perfect and those of us who are interested in the new who like to support it and enjoy the possibilities it creates, are no more idiots for doing so than the man who spends thousands on old bits of glass resurrected from the radios of 1940s Russian submarines with which to populate his electronics of choice. It’s all a choice, if it brings you closer to your music or gives you pleasure in any other way, I say crack on and if it’s not your thing or you find change upsetting or unsettling just do something else. sorry for the rambling rant, but like the author of this thread I just couldn’t help myself. |
Funny how a medium that has been around the longest, since 1877.... is the best. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_recording#:~:text=Inventor%20Emile%20Berliner%20created%20the.... It is the standard to beat for a reason, it just plain sounds right. Digital is ok...just not as good. It is great for when I just don’t care to fuss much over the sound and just want some music playing. However, when I feel like sitting and concentrating on the music, it is analog Lp’s, tape. If you digital devotees really want to get pissed, go read what Tom writes over at better records concerning the sound of cd's/digital vs lp's lol! |
@teknorob23 yep you are right another nonsense thread, yet here you are. And you will click on the next thread on the same subject in 2 weeks. It is like seeing a car crash on the highway, you see the lights flashing of the emergency services, the twisted metal and people standing on the side of the road, and you slow down to get a better look. Why? Why indeed. |
Here is a question for the case bled masses here. Let’s say that in 1970 you bought Tapestry by Carole King and listened to it on your then decent system, say a Dual 1229 turntable, high efficiency speakers, McIntosh tube amplifier and preamp. How much different would that sound from today listening via streaming using a 10k system? FWIW I used to record all my albums immediately on R2R back in the day and keep the vinyl as reference in order to re-record if the tape degraded from a pristine record. |
Something is wrong with this explanation. It has2be."The standard has, for decades now, been digital. 17-year-olds do not even know what you are talking about." "But here is reality....most 17 year olds don’t know wt_ they are talking about let alone understand any of us.... head down face in the phone with ear buds on.....yeah ok....." Maybe they would understand older people better....if older people made sense. |
The opposite is also true. Vinyl analogue is working really hard to achieve what a quality digital stream finds easy. By spending the thick end of £50,000 on hardware and another £50,000 on records, plus a load of fiddling, you might get close to a Qobuz stream’s absence of surface noise, lack of rumble, lack of wow/flutter, stereo in low frequencies, zero pops and crackles, dynamic range, consistency in source quality, diversity of source music, and fidelity to the sound as recorded. Keep saving, spending and trying, vinyl lovers - you may overcome those challenges in the end. Not sure where I read the story, but apparently Michael Jackson had a two day long strop when he was told he couldn’t have a bass-heavy track positioned last in the running order of Thriller. The design limitations of cutting vinyl simply wouldn’t allow it. It had to be track 1. My how times have changed. The desired running order now wouldn’t be an issue at all. Maybe Thriller should be reissued without the loudness war changes and in the artist’s desired running order. ...except that those who want a plastic copy of this will have to listen to a toned-down version designed by the cutting engineer. |
If sound quality is all that matters to you in your music enjoyment experience, then we can indeed continue to debate the issue of digital vs analog. My system gives exceedingly good quality sound with either format, to the point that this is no longer the most relevant issue in my music enjoyment. But a well designed streaming system does something that neither LP’s or CD’s can do alone. Namely it allows me to quickly and easily enjoy the music on many other levels. I can for example: 1) read notes on the album 2) read a biography of the musician(s) 3)find out what other albums they have out, who they were influenced mostly by and who followed them. 4) explore related artists. 5) skip over to allmusic.com or anywhere else on the internet to enrich my experience and understanding of the music 6) tag things I want to revisit or skip or reorder my listening etc. etc. This is why streaming will replace both the LP and the CD. |
Streaming can’t replace record collecting. It will never happen. Records have value, and prices goes up in time for rare stuff, people with quality records are rich in a good way. It’s an investment. One rare record even in VG condition can cost more than turntable+amp+speakers or your entire digital rig. How your free digital library can replace collection of original records? Yes, you can listen to digital, so what? It has no value at all. It’s like a piece of art (original) versus digital print (a copy). Music on background and record collection are two different things. And quality is not what collectors are looking for, audiophiles are sick about quality and this is what makes them extremely boring sometimes. You can answer for yourself one question to understand who you are... If you can only choose one, do you want an original vinyl if it will cost you more or you are ok with free high resolution digital copy of that album? If you don’t need an original vinyl then you’re a typical audiophile, in this case you’d better not talk about vinyl, you will never understand why there are people who collect vinyl, get your digital copy and shut a ..... ..p. P.S. For me digital is a key to discover music I want to buy on vinyl (originals, not a re-issues), often from the 70’s. Digital file in whatever resolution is nothing for me. |
"Records have value, and prices goes up in time for rare stuff, people with quality records are rich in a good way. It’s an investment." That is true, but you have to sell it. While investing in it, you may need to consider the market size for that rare stuff. There is a possibility that, as people age, there is less and less potential buyers of high-priced rarities. If you do not sell it just at the right moment, at least while you are still alive, you may lose a large portion of your investment. As record collectors near the end their own life cycle, or cross over into eternity, more of the rare records may come to the market. Having less buyers and more rare records to be sold may not increase the price. In short, if you want to get rich on records, sell them now. If you are collecting them just to collect them because that is what makes you feel good, bring them on. Just do not convince yourself that you have something immensely valuable. No matter how rare your record collection is, you are not collecting dividends on them while you are staring at them at home. |
Something is wrong with this explanation. It has2be.The standard has, for decades now, been digital. 17-year-olds do not even know what you are talking about." "But here is reality....most 17 year olds don’t know wt_ they are talking about let alone understand any of us.... head down face in the phone with ear buds on.....yeah ok....." Maybe they would understand older people better....if older people made sense. /////////////////////////////// More funny....in your own rant void of anything more than slight....YOU are the older people not making sense...ironic Go ahead....try and prove what I said that digital isn’t trying hard to be analog sounding by nature isn’t true. My digital spinner is an Esoteric so I’m not a non believer in digital... But I’m not a dolt who can’t see (or hear ) that both industries have pushed the music to not sound like the 80’s roll out of digital. The best machines have always emulated that analog sound vinyl has and it’s non fatiguing quality. You see....your argument and slight is moot when it comes to those realities. You can argue your opinion all you want....and I’ll defend you to have it as well. Because your opinion is choice....but you can’t change the fact of how we got here and why and what the optimal goal in sound is. The bar was set....you just haven’t actually heard it I guess.... |
@glupson Rare records pressed in 300-500 copies on private labels about 40 years ago, some of them cost now $300 - $1500 each and you will not find them in the shops like those junk pressed in million copies that still cost 50 cents. There are auctions for rare stuff and high demand is the reason of high price! However, no matter how many copies pressed as long as it’s original press. There are bootlegs and counterfeits in vinyl world too, but you can’t compare digital copy even to bootlegs or counterfeits on vinyl. Again: digital have NO VALUE! If you think it’s time to sell vinyl now you can sell (if you have something really interesting someone willing to buy). Record collectors always buying and selling records, making new discoveries of very rare and unknown tunes from the past. It’s not about billboard top 100 or so called classics which is ok too. It’s not even about quality at all, this is the reason vinyl is still there, not your audiophile crap. Otherwise remastered digital files could be collectible and all old vinyl could be in the junk yard, but they are not! And VG original records are highly collectible and very expensive. Record collectors are not audiophiles (most of them are not) ! It’s about music on original source that makes it highly collectible! It’s about real passion and good musical taste (most audiophiles have no taste in my opinion, music on hi-end shows is horrible, same tunes). Record collectors are hunting for unknown rare stuff and they want to have it on vinyl (the original press), they are aware of the free digital files, but they don’t care! Records is investment even if you don’t want to invest, literally. Buying good original records you can’t loose. They will cost more anyway, this is what I mean and it’s a good feeling about your record collection (only if your wife will not sell them for the prices you mentioned especially for her:)) |
I have an extensive Vinyl collection of over 1500 jazz records mostly from the 50's and 60's and most all in VG+ or better condition. I probably spent well over 50K collecting them over the years and I still enjoy listening to them. The sound is different but no more or less enjoyable than good digital. Analog system: - Transrotor fat bob turntable - Graham Phantom arm - ZYX Airy 3 cartridge - Plinius M14 phono stage - LAMM LL2 pre amp Digital system: - Sound Science Music vault streamer - PSAudio directstream DAC - Plinius SA102 amp (both systems) As far as collecting vinyl as an investment. Put your money in stocks!! I could not get a tiny fraction of what I have paid back in resale. My best original issue Blue Notes will fetch a few hundred each but things drop off very quickly from there - Let me know if you want to buy some I can send a list. |
chakster, I am well aware that it is possible to sell a record for a lots of money in February 2021. That is why I mentioned it may be time to sell it now. While there is still someone who wants to buy it. Of course, if you start a little business by buying and selling, the story is different. It may be lucrative, I guess. If you are only owning records and looking at them at home thinking how it was an investment, you may be fooling yourself. They are worth nothing (in monetary terms). You would need to pay someone to lug them to the junkyard, they are heavy. I am not even sure if they can, at least, be recycled. Unless you sell all those precious records, they are of perceived, but never materialized, monetary value only to you. To the rest of the world they are trash do be dealt with some day. Check oregonpapa’s posts along similar lines on another thread (I think it is "Better Records thread"). He has what seems to be an enviable collection along the lines you are implying. He does not know what will happen to it some day. His descendants have no interest in it. What can we do? Not much, progress marches on and we are left behind with our little fantasies. Or, you can read mrbobm’s post above more than once. He made it very clear. Even he decided to go digital... Willie Nelson, Sister Bobbie - Who'll Buy My Memories (Digital video) - YouTube Sadly, it seems it has never been released on an LP, only CDs... Who’ll Buy My Memories? Vol. 1 (The IRS Tapes) | Discogs |
Record collecting is a pursuit / hobby in itself that requires a different commitment and specialized knowledge. I have two acquaintances who are record collectors who rarely play their collection, but enjoy their record collection just as much as those who purchase to play. Like all hobbies, there will be peaks and valleys with respect to value. |
I have no horse in the sound quality wars. I find it remarkable that records sound as good as they do given the obsolete technology. As far as record collections being “investments” they are certainly emotional investments but not financial. When it’s our time the vast majority of us will have our record collections 1. Handed down and likely listened to rarely if ever sitting in boxes 2. Sold at estate sale for a fraction of their cost, or 3. sold to record shop for a fraction of their cost. I find collecting of anything, except rare cases, to be mainly emotional and OCD than trying to amass some perceived value |
@Goopson...@Goopson... " has2be, It may be the age difference between us that makes your posts logically incomprehensible. It is my fault for trying to understand them. Your choice of a CD player is impressive, but has2be a little inconvenient when going around town. Being younger, I mostly use earphones" /////^^/////////////////^^^^^^ Well, Goopson. Perhaps you can’t comprehend because your reading retention is like digital. It purposely omits half the information....like this... "Digital in the car, on the bike, on the trails.... To me it’s "best feature" is its portability." You still can’t manage a logical and sound argument back at the context I provided ... insults don’t quite do that..right , goopson.... oh and so you don’t hurt your wrists..I’m not advocating headphones in the car...just on the bike and the trails.... So ...still waiting...is digital not been trying to sound more analog and that’s the bar set... Please do tell ...logically of course....but I degress. ...your still arguing which is better based on ownership bias...not the context of what and who was and still is chasing who... Here is something else your comprehension digitally glossed over.... " Digital has come a very long way, seriously." I stand by that. It’s a fact. Digital these days is very good. In some ways exceptional. But an original pressing of a well recorded lp in the hands of someone who actually knows how to set up and get the music out of the grooves. ..sorry Gloopson. ... obviously you don’t have the ability or patience to do or comprehend. ..you obviously haven’t heard good playback with vinyl or tape for that matter to not get what I’m saying.....anyone who has , gets it immediately. Now the argument of hassle , cost , maintenance and effort...those arguments have merits worthy of challenge....the context of what and who is trying to sound as good as the other can...no..not at all...it is just that....a chase...one that remarkably isn’t over.... @golfmd2 I agree with your post mostly. The value should be the music itself.....once we go...it usually does become about something else....never understood owning unplayed sealed records though... |
has2be, "... obviously you don’t have the ability or patience to do or comprehend. .." !!! ... insults don’t quite do that..right... Well said. By the way, I am aware that vinyl/analog has improved over the last century, or so. Not much, over the last 40 years, I am afraid. I may be wrong. At the same time, earphones have gone through tremendous improvements. What clueless 17-year-olds are listening to via their earphones may be way better than what you listened to when you were 17. |
When I close my eyes and the performer is standing in my room in front of me how much does it matter if it's vinyl or a streamer? Personally, I like to play several of the streaming acoustic stations and when I run across an artist I like I just enter the name in Tidal and play any of their albums I like without even having to get up from my chair. If you chose to thi8nk your clicks and pops sound better and like spending time cleaning vinyl and refiling it be my guest..... both vinyl and CDs are really yesterday now. BTW, get your Tidal at Best Buy, Hi-Fi for $10 a month. |
