Nice fit for your speakers. Townshend makes a great speaker cable called a Fractal F1. Its as good as a cable as the Podiums are for vibration.
Experience with Townshend Seismic Podiums on Concrete Floor (they're great)
I have tower speakers on a concrete floor covered with carpet. Recently, I tried out the Townshend Seismic Podium (size 1) on my Ascend Acoustics Towers (RAAL tweeter) for about 4-5 hours. Here is a brief recounting of my experience.
At first, I set up the podiums and just listened to well known tracks; next, a few days later, I used that same set of tracks to compare, A & B, the speakers on the podium vs. without the podium (but at the same height). A friend with me also compared this A/B setup. We listened to a simple jazz arrangement, a Mozart aria, a rock recording by Chesky, and a country/rock piece. All were well recorded.
The difference made by the podiums are not subtle. In general, it is as if the entire sonic presentation was brought into focus, as if a light veil or layer of dust had been wiped away. It organizes everything; it makes the parts of the whole make sense.
More specifically, these were the effects I noticed:
Bass was slightly fuller, much cleaner and more distinct; for an electric bass, this meant that rounded notes that previously blurred in a sequence (too legato) become individual notes. String bass notes gained dimensionality and texture; the finger on the string became more real, and the resonance of the large wooden bass got fuller and richer. Rhythm sections were better able to stand out *as* rhythm sections, that is, as musicians who are working together.
As far as midrange and treble go, there was -- as with the bass -- more definition, clarity, detail. They sound more like instruments-in-the-room rather than the presence of instrument appearances. Not much about their tonal character changed, but they became more palpable and more exactly located.
That brings me to the soundstage. The width of the soundstage grew by about 10-14% — 5-7% on each side. It was remarkable. Instruments gained space, separation, and definiteness of location. They didn't sound apart or isolated but just more distinct, separated from other instruments. I imagined this as fidelity to the way the microphone recorded them or as the mixing engineer intended.
When I ordered the podiums, I made sure to ask for the ability to return them. I was assured that I could return them if I just paid shipping. (No restocking fee.) I was skeptical and wanted an escape clause. I had watched a few videos and was curious about whether Mr. Townshend's scientific claims would translate into audible differences that would be worth the money (the podiums cost about 1/3 of my speakers' cost).
Well, my skepticism is gone — and it disappeared rather quickly at first, and then after careful comparison. I am keeping the Townshend podiums. Are they better than Isoacoustics footers or other products? I don't know, because I have not compared them. But they're making a huge difference and, should I want to put other speakers on them, they'll fit the others I have, easily. I'm pretty sure I'll never give these up.
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Hi @benzman , sorry but I forgot to update my Audiogon system in January when I sold the M3s and purchased Volti Rivals. I have updated my profile and w/ pics including the Podiums. Still blown away by these! My system is very, very, close to being "done" (yeah, I know). |
@laynes I didn't have any odor at all on mine. I agree with you about the "laugh out loud good" assessment. What I'm curious about now -- if anyone is still reading this -- is: QUESTION: Do you mass load (put a weight atop your speaker) in addition to the podiums? |
I received my Podiums late last week and could bump on any number of threads but this one is the most recent one I think. They actually were delivered with a very strong and unplesent smell which I can only guess was from the manufacturing process - they smelled a lot like cigerettes - but not quite. It took 2-3 applications of a ozone spray to get rid of it. Not a huge deal but mentioning because if this happens to someone else you will probalby need to use Ozone spray. I've read almost every post on this forum over the past few months including Ozzy's review and MillerCarbon's - both, as this one were excellent. I can't add much to what was already written and my listening skills aren't that great yet but these were laugh out loud good when I first heard them about an hour ago. Everything from from bass to mids to mid-highs benefitted and that improvement was the definition of instruments and even vocals. I'm in shock writing this right now for the leap my system just took with these. The sound stage is a huge imrovement esp with height but in all regards. Even the instruments in the sound stage are more defined placement -wise. I'm on tile / concrete floor btw. Also, John at Townshend is great to work with and price was lower than what I thoguht they would be (but still not cheap - but worth every penny IMO). |
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I watched the video on my big system. Really liked what I heard. I am sure part of the reason was the podiums allowed me too. If they do that for an amp I can only imagine what they can do for a speaker. |
Have been able to adjust pods on my Podiums and Platform independently for leveling and only issue is the Platform pods need more grip on the bottom and I’ve had to often align each one so they are perfectly vertical. Today after tearing system apart to apply a annual beeswax to the audio rack I replaced the 3 thin 1/8” stainless plates with 6 Rollerblock Jr. discs (without bearings) evenly under the CD player. This is the best I have been able to do to this point but May still try a set of Precision Couplers as well. The difference each change made was immediately audible and required attention. Hope this might help others and updated my system page today for those who may be curious. |
...their method of placing speakers directly on the floor was to put a piece of marble under the speaker--so not really sure if it's analogous to carpet on concrete--would love to see if carpeting/pad is considered a form of decoupling and they did measurements on that type of surface.
I agree. There's still a lot that is unknown when it comes to loudspeaker decoupling. I guess that anything softer/having less mass than either the speaker cabinet or the surface it's standing on must decouple to a certain extent. The big question is how far do you have to lower the resonant frequency between the speaker and it's supporting surface before you stop hearing improvements. I remember hearing that you need to go below 10Hz to get the full benefit, but I'm not sure why. In the video Credo used the idea of suspending the speaker from a bungee cord (?) as the reference with which to compare both their own decoupling method and that of Townshend Audio. |
Anyone out there wanting to hear a comparison between a so-called isolation platform versus a direct coupled platform may want to experience this video. I have been using the Star Sound/Live Vibe racks and platforms for 20 years now. I have even installed small platforms on Audiopoints and discs inside my amplifiers under their main circuit board. Audio Points and coupling discs under transformers secured with brass hardware not ferrous steel. Pretty cool to be able to adjust the resonance point of a component much like that of a string instrument. The new company name is Home - Live-Vibe Audio - Vibration Management Products (livevibeaudio.com) EBM you should contact your Buds at Symposium and ask them to offer up a platform to OCD Mikey on his YouTube channel for review. If they decide to take on Townshend and especially Live Vibe wish them luck with the 3 way shoot out. The audio result of the duel in the link below was evident on a cell phone. Take a listen here as the comparative difference is abundantly clear just as it was to me 20 years ago using Sistrum Platforms or Audiopoints under Thiel CS 6s then in my workplace and under my Dunlavy SC4s in my own rig back then. Tom . Remember when choosing or designing your own rack or platform............... Isolation can only exist in the absence of matter. Tom
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Regarding raising the height of the speaker/tweeter: Yes that certainly is an issue, and in many speaker designs it will change the sound. Sometimes a speaker will sound more mellow and rich below the tweeter, but sometimes it could be a bit more recessed or sucked out sounding. Depends on the design. My Thiels sounded more lightened and hollow when raised a couple inches with some (cheap) spring footers. I just tried Gaias under my Joseph speakers and because I couldn't get the original spikes off the Joseph I tried the Gaias under those spikes, which raised the speakers about 2 inches. It didn't work. The sound got less focused, more smeared, and a bit too mellow in the highs. However I DID like the slightly higher soundstage. I experimented and found a compromise that raises the speakers about an inch or so, and I like the sound this way. One of the selling points for me was that the Townshend speaker bars wouldn't raise the speakers which would hopefully not change the tonal balance of the speaker as I was used to. They worked quite well in that regard - the sound didn't change nearly as much as the higher spring footers or other devices I tried. (Though, as I mentioned, in the end I still preferred the speakers on the floor, or in the case of my Thiels, with the Gaia...even though there is a slight change in tonality). |
@wyoboy First, thank you so much for your kind comments. Much appreciated. I would keep my eye on what @brownsfan writes, as he has more succinctly analyzed the physics involved than anyone else. Today I will be experiment with adding weight/mass to the top of my speakers while they are on the podiums to see what that does. If I hear nothing, I will say nothing. Regarding tweeter height, it adds about 1.5 inches or so. That might matter or it might not. It will change how the speaker reflects in the room (first and distal reflection points) but that may not matter in your room. In addition, it’s not that hard to raise one’s seat, depending on the impact on Spouse Acceptance. Raise the speakers, raise the seat -- if that makes any difference. Remember, too, that the podiums can be adjusted for rake angle, too, by lowering the front two knobs. That may correct the angles in play for the tweeters. |
@cd318 Thanks for posting that video--very interesting although they didn't really specify what kind of floor they had--looks like a hard surface (painted concrete?) but their method of placing speakers directly on the floor was to put a piece of marble under the speaker--so not really sure if it's analogous to carpet on concrete--would love to see if carpeting/pad is considered a form of decoupling and they did measurements on that type of surface. @sokogear Must admit that when i almost pulled the trigger it was with the Symposiums, basically b/c they seemed to do the same as the Podiums at a considerable lesser price--still thinking about it or Isoacoustics--i was with @mapman on Podiums or Syposiums or Isoacoustics probably being more useful on floating/suspended wood floors until the OP posted this thread so just back to being confused. |
@wyoboy - part of the reason I went with the Symposium platforms is that they they raised the height of the speaker exactly the same as what came with the speakers (outriggers/spikes/discs), so the tweeter height was not affected. You never know how much (if any) improvement you'll get from any given accessory/tweak (I hate that word). Symposium offers a money back guarantee, so you're only risking the cost of shipping, but I will say that if you talk to Peter there, he will tell you if he thinks there will be an improvement with your exact application if he experience with it. My experience with both Townshend's seismic platform under my TT and Symposium with my speakers are that the improvement was immediately noticeable and more than I expected. Not so much with Symposium rollerblocks under my amp and phono stage. Lastly, I thought my stereo sounded darn good back in college, and it has only gotten better over the decades. Every time I think I am "there" I am surprised that the bar seems to be higher with a different arm, phono stage, cartridge, etc. And I am nowhere near as critical a listener as a lot of Agon contributors and don't change components very often (amp is 18 years old, speakers weren't traded in for 25 years). Most of the time I am doing something else, and I don't have a dedicated room - it's a den. |
@hilde45 I particularly like this thread b/c i also have carpet over concrete and have often wondered about the need for isolation vs. the need to couple the speakers to the concrete via spikes--seeing so many threads advocating isolation and just as many advocating coupling makes it very confusing. There are only a few posters here whose opinion i respect and you've long been one of them. @mapman Your experience is also valuable--i was also a Geologist until i went down the dark hole of law but have often pondered the effect, if any, of seismic vibration, especially on a concrete floor covered with thick pad and carpet. I've pondered Isoacoustic Gaias, Symposium platforms (@sokogear) and Podiums but just haven't been willing to pull the trigger, mainly b/c the sound is pretty darn good right now. One thing i've noticed, and wondered about, is that small changes in tweeter elevation are very noticeable--if i lift myself up an inch (or lower myself the same) in my listening position the effects are very noticeable. Therefore, i've wondered whether the Podiums elevate the speaker thus causing a noticeable change that owners might like? Any comment on that Podium owners ? |
@hilde45 , Thanks for drawing my attention to the video. There is a lot of information there. After one viewing, I really like this company's approach and intend to watch the video several more times. They seem to have systematically addressed those issues I identified as I tried to mentally work my way through this problem. My sense is that there is some good science and engineering at work. I noticed that their isolation technology is in addition to what sounds like some significant internal cabinet bracing. And guess what? Their speakers are expensive. Also interesting is the use of the aluminum plate which serves to drain residual kinetic energy from the speaker cabinet. I'd love to know more about how the speaker couples to the plate, and how the plate decouples from the floor. |
Yes, @prof I missed your post. Apparently you may be the only one on this thread who did not like the results of the Townshend. However, I note that in your case it’s with the Bars rather than Podiums. The Bars and Podiums may be the same in terms of performance so it may not matter.
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@jtcf yes they work well and fit my beefed up bottom ported Ohm Walsh 2s with 8” driver that are 12” square at the base perfectly. 100 lb might be ok depending. Probably not if spikes. Maybe Auralex publishes weight limits. |
@mapman the subdudes worked for you? I looked at those but decided the thin foam layer would not be adequate for my 100 lb speakers. The Townshend outriggers were tempting also, but I'm happy with the Primacoustics now. |
@cd318 Thanks. Just watched that video. Very interesting and it seems to advocate for both their custom product and Townshend. @brownsfan may be interested in this one. |
Informative video from Credo Audio Switzerland that compares spikes to their own isolation and that of Townshend Audio's. The key takeaway here might be that isolation products do not alter frequency response unless you want to include major structural and cabinet resonances as part of the audio signal.
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@hilde45 - I would be the Symposium platforms are better for distortion/noise drainage and the Townshend podiums are better for isolation. I needed more isolation for my turntable and drainage for my speakers, so that's why I use both companies. For speakers, I think Symposium provides a much bigger bang for the buck. If I remember back when I got them, the Townshend product that would have worked was about 2-3 times the cost, and I am sure would have been an improvement - I was just not comfortable with the rocking. My amp and preamp move around with so much as a nudge being on top of the rollerblocks, but I can live with that since they are very stable. |
Fantastic post! Threads (like mine) about a specific piece of gear are most useful when others chime in with what worked for them. Your example is great because it's clear that your choice is accomplishing similar physical results with similar sonic improvements. At the end of the day, I would love to conduct experiments comparing different products to see which one has the best "bang for the buck." Without that luxury, the next best thing is to hear thoughtful and descriptive accounts such as yours. |
I have tall, thinnish floor standers sitting on a wood floor suspended over a crawl space. They came with extending arms with spikes/discs and sat on top of the floor. I use Townshend's seismic platform under my turntable with superb results, but the prospect of the Townshends adding instability to my speakers wasn't something I wanted to risk even without kids. I learned of a great company called Symposium acoustics (on Audiogon) that makes multi layered platforms that can go under anything and also makes roller blocks that serve a similar purpose to podiums. You can also put the platforms on top of the rollerblocks if you want more isolation. The platforms themselves isolate the speakers while also cleaning up the speakers' internal vibrations. The owner was honest and said I should try the platforms by themselves since they raised the speakers the exact same amount as the spikes/discs, and adding rollerblocks would raise the tweeter height which would change the sound.He was familiar with my speakers and said the improvement using his platforms on wood floors would be significant. Very patient owner who was sincerely interested in helping me improve the sound of my system. I have to say the sound of the speakers was cleaned up and more focused, and the soundstage opened up. There was less coming out of the speakers - distortion was reduced dramatically. He told me that was expected. The entry level ones are very reasonable (Segue Platform although the stealth - black ones I got are more $$ and add another layer to the platforms), and if you want to spend more, you can on his higher level models, but the incremental improvement was not recommended for my application for the cost. I liked the guy so much (he custom cut the platforms to my needed dimensions with no upcharge) that I bought his rollerblocks for under my amp and phono stage for isolation purposes. I am sure they improved the sound, but nowhere near as noticeably as my turntable from Townshend or the speakers from Symposium. Both companies have great products - it all depends on the application. Symposium's wouldn't work with a turntable as light as mine, and Townshend adding instability to my speakers wasn't something I could live with. |
Great news. Your experience just adds to the statistics and reinforced my belief that the Townshend Podiums register a 100% success rate with those who have tried. They only bring a positive impact to all systems that were installed with these, so far no complaints or remarks such as "can’t hear a difference" or "the sound got worse" sort of thing. I don’t have the budget for the Podiums so I had settled for the Isoacoustics Gaia. |
For those us that don't want to pay more for our speakers than we did for our house, we are forced to look for products like the Townsend for a poor man's solution, and the reality is that we are going to have to try some different types to see (hear) what works best in our particular setting.
Well said! Loudspeaker decoupling is now more or less universally accepted. Even in the usually more cynical hard nosed pro-audio world where isolation pads, the kind you see advertised on Amazon nowadays, are routinely employed underneath professional monitors. All seemingly within the space of a few short years. |
I use the Townshend podiums on a second floor wood constructed floor with carpet. I tried spikes, no spikes, spikes into a limestone slab and herbies gliders. The Townshend was the only one that cleaned up the bass and added the benefits of a greater soundstage and better localization of instruments. To me they are an essential component. |
One thing I forget to mention, in addition to Isoacoustics stands under my smaller speakers when needed on upper levels of my home, I also use Auralex Subdude platforms under my floor standing bottom ported Ohm Walsh speakers there. The difference is night and day on suspended plywood floors. Articulate bass that does not obscure detail in the midrange versus the exact opposite. Very cost effective! Would welcome opportunities to try other products like Townsend for that and see what happens. |
By it I mean the actual impact seismic activity has on most peoples hifis. Also the write up tended to blur the lines between seismic events and other things. Probably done by a marketing guy and signed off on to increase the appeal of the product. The effect of seismic activity seems to be the focus of the marketing to differentiate the product from competition. So it comes down to the difference between robust science and marketing. It’s a business so marketing rules. Nothing unusual there.
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I agree the overwhelming proportion of reports on the Townshend isolation base/bars are positive. That's one of the reasons I tried them (Isolation Bars). Unfortunately I found they weren't to my taste. I lost a bit too much "room feel" in the bass and they changed the tonality a bit more than I wanted, and also reduced a bit of the "body" of the sound. My speakers sounded a bit more tonally full, dense and energetic without the Townshend bars so I returned them. Most people keep them, though.
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@hilde45 I agree regarding the desirability of having the manufacturers actually get down into the grass with consumers on the physics and their engineering answers to the physics. Unfortunately, their first task is to retain a competitive edge in a competitive market. So everything runs through the filter of how does this advance sales. Nothing wrong with that. That is how the free market operates. Also, not all audiophiles are interested in understanding the science, indeed, some people are put off by excessively technical explanations. It is easier from me to get from St. Louis to the west coast than it was for Lewis and Clark. The difference is entirely one of knowledge and understanding. It is hard under the best of circumstances to get an audio system to really sing in our homes. Starting from an understanding of those things that always must be true in every instance is very helpful. That can take us a long way, but in the end, there are important things that can't be known by a home audio guy in sufficient detail to obviate the value of empiricism. Sharing of knowledge and experience in this forum is really a somewhat efficient and cost effective way to mitigate the inefficiency inherent in pure empiricism. OK, I've used up my daily quota of big words and need to shut up. |
@brownsfan Good point. Type 4 (seismic) is part of type 3, and would be small in comparison. It would be nice to see an interview with a speaker maker that addressed these vibrational issues in these terms. @benzman -- I love your description and it is certainly what I heard, especially: "My biggest takeaway from them are the space around the instruments and not only the depth of the stage but the actual placement of the players. Live recordings are especially impressive as you will hear the audience in front and the singer a few feet back and guitar player a couple more feet back and to the left and the drummer 12 ft behind the singer but 8 ft behind the guitar player etc. I guess you would call it layering . |