@lordmelton This is a pretty late comment, but that was some very bad advice.
There is not a single review across the board which puts a Chinese DAC ahead of the Tambaqui, including the best of them, the Holo May.
Even Herb Reichert, Stereophile, who holds the May in high regard, concludes:
"Is the Tambaqui better than my forever-favorite HoloAudio May Level 3 DAC? "Better" is not a word I often use, but the Mola Mola makes music bigger, clearer, more solid and rousing than the May. The Tambaqui encourages me to listen longer and more closely than I do with the May. That's what "better" means to me, so yes, it's better."
But let's put that aside for a minute, the Tambaqui bests it in all measurements (other than noise floor in which the May is slightly lower - but noise floor at the level of the Tambaqui is already way beyond your hearing threshold, and the least of your worries in terms of measurements).
As for this talk about the Musetec DA005 - that DAC is a completely jittered mess; a terribly engineered chip DAC, and an incredibly poor performer. It's not even in the same dimension as the Tambaqui in terms of technical merit.
So, why highjack a thread like this with a hugely false statement that doesn't answer the question?
I’ve noticed quite a few manufacturers of high end DAC’s are now including streaming client with their DAC’s. To me, this makes perfect sense as long as it’s implemented with proper care. Honestly speaking, the Merging +player has squashed my desires to own any outboard high end streamer. In direct A/B comparison, Merging’s Roon Core+Endpoint $3K option in their +player went toe to toe with a five figure ultra high end streamer :-)
I'm not sure if this thread has discussed source synergy yet (I don't have the stamina to re-read it). The EMM DV2 doesn't have an internal source, whereas the Tambaqui does have an internal Roon streaming board.
The obvious streaming source for the DV2 would be the EMM NS1 streamer, connected via EMM's proprietary Optilink (which supposedly minimizes jitter). I do have an NS1 on the way, but I don't have an EMM Dac to try out that particular combination.
For streaming, the Roon board in the Tambaqui sounds good (better to my ears than the separate $3000 streamer I had on hand). Since Bruno Putzeys is/was connected to both Mola Mola and Grimm, a lot of folks pair the Tambaqui with the Grimm MU1 server (Roon core + endpoint + reclocker + upsampler). The Grimm is a special piece. I've had it at home and will try it again. But of course it's nearly the same price as the Tambaqui itself. For me at least, it's one of those money-no-object kind of components -- something for a very ambitious system.
@yyzsantabarbaraWell that’s a good idea... I pulled the pin and should have the Tambaqui in house come first week of April.
So I can definitely give you my thoughts on the Musetec 005 vs Tambaqui A/B, and would be cool to have some others A/B different DAC’s listed.
Appreciate the suggestion!
It might take me a little time to really give a good listen (new baby T-minus any day), and I’m told it needs to run hot and get some hours in. But I’ll do my best in giving you my unadulterated subjective, relatively new to Hi-Fi opinion.
With Playback - There has always been the option of the MPS-8 which is the Dream DAC plus player/streamer at $30K. This is a full dream DAC with SACD Player and Stream X module.
The MPD-6 is a lower end model called the Edelweiss. It is not a Dream DAC and is spec'd differently but at $15K for the DAC and $18K with the streamer module, it will bring an elite level of performance down a price notch.
@ja_kub_sz How about starting a new thread to compare the Musetec 005 to the DACs you plan to audition?
The 4 DACs you have listed were all in my list of DACs to consider, along with the 005. I am thinking of getting a second 005 for the Livingroom but variety never hurt.
In the $15k plus category, keep an eye on Nagra. Their successor to the Nagra Classic DAC will include streaming capability. Koch of Playback is on their digital design team. The analog stage is designed by the Nagra brain trust. Beautiful form factor if that matters to you and it will have that slightly warm and musical DSD sound if that appeals to you. I use their tube DAC which doesn’t have streaming and is quite a bit more expensive.
If the insightful and meaty analog quality of an MSB is also of interest, consider totaldac as well. It’s sold direct without dealer markup. If you configure it properly (PM me if you’re interested - the website is confusing to say the least), it’s killer and quite a bit cheaper than MSB even at the highest levels. Built in Roon endpoint is an option. But even their entry model is quite good. I have one.
Verdantaudio, that is a great post. I was not aware that the Dream dac was releasing a new model with a streaming module. That is a game changer. The Dream dacs were designed by the a genius. I will need to listen to this new model as well. Thanks for the information you posted. I will look at the Rockna. Have you heard the new Sonnet? It may be showcased at the Munich hi fi show in a few weeks.
This is a brutal thread. @laomanhere are three thoughts beyond Holo May and Denafrips.
I have not heard the EMM or the Mola Mola. I am 100% certain both are brilliant but they just haven't made it through my space yet. I am exploring expanding my DAC selection further and am seriously considering adding EMM. We just added Playback.
Playback has just introduced and is about to ship the new MPD-6 Edelweiss which is $15K without the built-in streamer. The Streamer is $3K. I have my sales sample on order and am just waiting for my bill from Playback and have been told to expect any day. I have not heard it yet, obviously. I have heard the Dream DAC and it is radically better than any of the $10K-$15K DACs I have heard in just about every way. I expect the Edelweiss to be a step up from the Weiss, M1 SE, Dave, Wavedream Edition cluster of DACs but a step down from the Dream DAC.
The Rockna Wavedream Signature is another DAC worth considering. It is incredibly detailed and is so neutral and balanced the sound is difficult to describe. The only critique is that it is so neutral, it can be a bit boring. They are incredibly detailed with a monstrous soundstage.
The MSB Discrete is also one worth looking at. I have no relationship with MSB but have heard their DACs and they are worth your time. Very musical and engaging. Incredibly detailed but not bright or fatiguing in any way.
Beyond EMM and Mola Mola, these are the three I would look at. Good luck to you.
Very interesting takes... @metaldetektoryour posts have been very helpful in particular, but I do appreciate reading almost all posts on this matter.
I was looking for a new reference DAC and wanted something non-ESS based since I presently have the Musetec 005. My short list was as follows
Holo May KTE (R2R)
Denefrips Terminator+ (R2R)
Chord Dave (FPGA)
Mola Mola Tambaqui (FPGA)
I'm awaiting a call about my Tambaqui audition, and went the FPGA route out of both reviews comparing these item's in some context of A vs B, then ultimately choose to go with the Tambaqui do to some reviewer's putting the May = 005 >/= Terminator+.
My thoughts again are that since I have the Musetec 005, the Tambaqui could be the standout given these other DAC's being so close in overall performance.
Could be wrong in my thinking, but the Tambaqui I know needs to run hot and does take some break in, but for the massive jump in cost compared to the competition, I need it to be fairly substantial (like when I got the 005) to my ears given it's price in order to confidently keep it.
Otherwise I might just get the May KTE and spend/save the rest of my money.
I'll post more later, but I plan to A/B the 005 against the Tambaqui, but haven't personally heard the May or Terminator+.
Sigh! If you had read this thread, you would know that I am not interested in a Chinese Dac. I am interested in the 2 that I asked about, or perhaps the new Sonnet.Playback Designs is also worth an audition. I dislike the sound of Ess Dac chips for starters and no Chinese Dac is in the league of the ones I have mentioned.
@laomanYour amp has some similar design principles as mine, but I'm not familiar with the speakers. Hopefully you can home audition from a dealer. If that's not a possibility, if you can buy these on the used market, you can effectively do an extended home audition without incurring too much expense.
I don't get what you mean when you say: ". I’m sure it’s a very good dac, but these underhanded tactics are definitely raising suspicions." Are suggesting some kind of conspiracy?
@laomanYou've put together a great list. I like all three of those brands. I have not heard the Pasithea, but I did take the Morpheus for a spin. I'd expect the Pasithea to be (even) quieter and more resolving than the Morpheus.
On the Mola Mola, I've been using an inexpensive ($100 range) XLR interconnect. The DAC only has XLR analogue outputs, but a pair of nice XLR-RCA adapters are included. I have a pair of honest RCA interconnects, so at some point I'll try the Mola Mola with those and the included adapters.
What system (amps / speakers) will you be slotting the new DAC into?
@melm As an amateur recording engineer for an orchestra, chamber group and multiple choirs as well as a chorister for 50+ years, I too prefer hearing live music in a good/great venue and can use that as a reference. Unfortunately, as with bad recordings, I've performed in mediocre venues as well.
and @metaldetektor I didn't intend to side track the discussion. I have a $20K analog front end and have attempted to equal it in CD playback. Some older CD players have sounded exceptional as they sound more like analog (Kyocera 310/410, haven't heard the 710). I last used the EAR acute for 15 years. Seeking a more detailed and clean sound, I ventured into separates about 3 years ago. I purchased a very well reviewed pair of DACs priced at $5K and $9K which I don't want to mention as I intend to sell them. The lesser priced one was warm and better than my EAR but lacked refinement/detail with frequency extremes truncated. The more expensive DAC is superior to the other in all those three ways but is sterile sounding/not warm at all. Plus, I realized the 1 second buffered delay blurred the sound. It does sound very good as a steaming DAC but not through the SPDIFs (each has a different sound as well). Gorgeous design and build though.
Instead, I have chosen a extreme modified Benchmark 1HDR. My friend replaced a pair of 50¢ regulators with $50 ones, recapped the power supply with audio not computer grade caps that it comes with, added another custom audio board, etc. This unit has it all sonically. My cost $2000. I still wonder if the Luxman D-03X is a better/compact package than his DAC which requires a transport and digital cable. Sometimes I feel that a single concept unit is better.
Lots of complaint that there's talk here about another DAC. Then lots of talk here about that other DAC from you. I agree that the ad on US Audio Mart using @dbb's review is kind of ridiculous. Don't know if he even asked for permission. But why write about it here? Why don't you just drop a note to the dealer and tell him what you think?
metaldetektor, thank you for your observations. I would be interested in hearing more as you listen more to the Tambaqui. What connects are you using, for example?That is precisely the type of feedback I wanted. It looks as if the choice will be the Tambaqui. I would like to thank all of the posters who kept the discussion on track.
I have nothing against Chinese Dacs or Chinese products, quite the contrary.Denafrips make very good Dacs. I think Opera Consonance, for example, make great equipment. AM amps are absolutely superb and little known.
My question was based on a lot of prior research and listening and that research and listening led me to consider the two Dacs posed in my initial query. So thanks to those who kept the topic on track. As a matter of interest, the new Sonnet, the Pasithea, is also on my list to listen to.
Now watch them jump on you by declaring that your motivations are driven by racism (anti-china) or your lack of understanding of how expensive DACs are merely snake oil (that's another way of saying that you are a gullible simpleton who doesn’t know how this stuff works)
@arafiq, I will not be surprised by that. They have called me out on another thread. Like you said - they are using their tactics. But point is, don't turn every thread to your DAC. If you want the OP to know about your DAC, reach out via PM instead of trying to divert the thread's original intent. This was typical of a person from down under who was hijacking all Class D amp, DSD and non-R2R DAC threads. Same thing I am seeing with these few posters - always trying to get pity by saying that most folks here are anti-China. My Oppo is made in China, I just got brand new Psvanes. And guess where they are made?
@milpai You should check out the dealer ad for the ’said’ dac on US Audio Mart. The dealer is referencing a topic started on audiogon as part of his sales pitch by a user named dbb . I’m sure it’s a very good dac, but these underhanded tactics are definitely raising suspicions. Now watch them jump on you by declaring that your motivations are driven by racism (anti-china) or your lack of understanding of how expensive DACs are merely snake oil (that's another way of saying that you are a gullible simpleton who doesn’t know how this stuff works). Typical tactics employed in fabricating a hype cycle :)
Funny that you asked. On the first page I noted this already. You tried to provide genuine feedback, but whenever certain 2 people get into DAC discussions, they make every effort to divert the threads to the DAC of their choice.
I’m not sure how this thread devolved into a discussion of DACs unrelated to the OP’s question -- that’s how these discussions always seem to go..."expensive" DACs (i.e., more expensive than whatever the poster likes) are the new "snake oil" I suppose.
According to Herb’s column in Stereophile, some of the tech for the Tambaqui was discovered in 2004 and production began in 2013. My long-term reference/snake oil is totaldac, and the basic ideas there have been in use since at least 2010, refined here and there over time. I guess that can be good or bad, depending on your perspective. Perhaps you’re assuming that new digital must be better than old digital. My view is "Don’t Mess Up a Good Thing".
I don’t think he is biased. There would be no reason. As far as I know, from this and another forum, @dbbis an amateur music lover like me and you. He is not a dealer. He bought the Musetec and the Holo May with his own money, and after the review he was satisfied to keep the Musetec and sold the May. I do identify with him as his passion is for classical music and his listening references are live unamplified concerts. There isn’t a better reference IMO. So that was the basis of the review.
I don’t think it is fair to say that the conclusion was, "The May didn’t hold up to the Musetec 005." As I read what he wrote, he found them to be very similar notwithstanding their very different architectures. He pointed out their very small differences. Being that close in SQ performance, he decided to keep the one costing less money.
@sns I agree. I have 28.500 LPs, 7,000 78s and 7,000 CDs. I love both LP and CD formats with the latter being the most convenient/easy to use. I'm knocking the other guy (or anyone) who dismisses vinyl, good vinyl (good mastering and pressing). My favorite recordings (in both CD and vinyl versions) are Mercury Living Presence & RCA Living Stereo/London from 50's and 60's and Jazz on Contemporary (and all the Fantasy group), World Pacific, etc. generally. Orchestral, chamber, solo violin/piano, etc. recordings of the past several decades suffer from distant miking, sometimes sounding like the mikes were facing away or backwards. Other times they are often as you described rear of hall. The great older recordings were a mix of up front miking combined with either natural or added slight reverb for capturing hall sound.
What I say, after 55 years of performing (35 years as an amateur recording engineer) with orchestras, chamber groups and choruses is that live performances sound different generally from recordings heard at home. I have not SOTA high end audio gear in a SOTA (one version) listening room. My friends include reknown remastering engineers who cut LPs (as well CDs when they were more popular).
I am not going the streaming route as I have both plenty of recordings and 1/3 or more of my collection will never be available for streaming (ethnic, esoteric labels such as Biddulph, Marston, Romophone, 50+ year old recordings with reduced interest for reissuance on line).
I am searching for a better CD playback and tried several higher end DACs (including a COS Engineering D1v). My current DAC is a Benchmark from 2011 super upgraded using a pair of $50 regulators (they used 50¢ ones), audio caps instead of computer caps, a new audio board and superior power filtering. I haven't had success with transports (last was PS Audio-wow, a disappointment but nice company) as either too clean or lovely/warm sounding but smeared. Next either a Jay's Audio transport or a Luxman D-03X CD player. If I like the D-03X, maybe a D-10X. Is the Mola Mola really a 2007 DAC design? The May didn't hold up to the Musetec 005 (was the reviewer biased as a dealer)?
@lalitkthank you! I have long admired your contributions to this forum, as they are based on direct experience. I have also found that folks with wonderful systems (like yourself) are more open minded about what’s possible in hifi (less bias), which makes for more productive conversations!
@arafiqwell said. I had the Weiss in my system twice, separated by many months. What’s interesting is that the first time around, I heard it with budget speakers but fairly honest cabling. The second time, much better speakers but lower resolving cabling. It was a more impressive DAC the first time around! The second time around, I needed to switch cabling to hear it at its best. Point being, sometimes folks make hasty judgments on the quality of electronics (this DAC blows this other DAC out of the water and it’s way cheaper!!!) when it’s really a synergy problem they’re experiencing (they didn’t hear what the component was truly capable of).
Purchasing products based purely on price is rather like confirmation bias in regard to faulty posits.
I’ve heard this argument many times before. I’m sure there are a few people who fall under this category, but by and large most people I know who purchase higher-priced DACs buy them after considerable research. Their top priority is system synergy. They are very clear in their heads about what kind of sound they're after. Price is usually not the driving factor. The DAC that I have today is the best that I can afford. But I don’t feel the need to validate my decision by questioning those who buy DACs that are significantly more expensive. I’m sure sure there are exceptions, but by and large the more expensive DACs do perform at a higher level, provided, and this is an important point, that the rest of your system is on par. You can’t put performance tires on an affordable family sedan and expect it to perform like a Ferrari. Same holds true for the higher end equipment.
Thank you for your very helpful and concise feedback. When you ‘actually’ compare DAC’s that are comparative in both performance and price, it gives our readers a true perspective on what to expect vs anyone who loves sharing their biases with a particular DAC without having the need to compare.
Please continue to share your objective impressions in your journey.
So I received the Mola Mola Tambaqui, this is Day Two in my system. I am sure it will improve over time.
For reference, the other DACs I’ve heard at home are totaldac (my reference), the latest Weiss, latest Meitner, and the Sonnet Morpheus.
The Mola Mola strikes me as a cross between Weiss and Meither. Like Weiss, it gives you a clear and raw view into the recording, tremendously good resolution. Unlike the Weiss and more like the Meitner, there is a touch of fluidity to the sound, which for me increases the engagement factor and eliminates the fatigue factor. Nothing clinical or mechanical here. There is also a great sense of force and pace with the Tambaqui, it really throws music into the room. Maybe that’s the 6V output, it’s nice that you can select lower voltages as well (which I haven’t tried yet).
These very early impressions are using the Tambaqui’s internal Roon endpoint. I will be trying it with the Grimm MU1 as well (a popular combination), which should be quite a step forward (but raises the cost vs. value issue).
@fleschlerI agree with you on the close vs. distant miking at least to some extent. I agree too many live classical recordings excessively distant miked. Sounds too messy and blunts dynamics to some extent. I prefer something in between close and distant miking, I want to hear some recording venue ambience. Same for rock, or any genre of music.
@lordmelton@fleschlerI don't see the above as a vinyl vs digital artifact, this is recording artifact. Actually, I think digital and vinyl sound are converging. There has been long and slow progress on resolution and dynamics front in vinyl and more natural timbre in digital. This is good thing to me. One of the differences that will always remain is with streaming or cd rips one can play music continuously, for me stream of consciousness playback has become critical to my enjoyment. I may create real time playlist of initial song being classical piece, next bluegrass, next electronica, and or I can string two or three cuts of each in any order. I love completely mixed up real time listening, its like my own free form radio station and I'm the dj! Vinyl listening is totally different for me, I get nostalgic with the smell, feel and cover artistry, the work involved in cleaning, changing sides, having to listen to all cuts on album. Completely different mindsets, both have their place.
@arafiqWhat is a giant killer, and what dac or dacs are the giants? I'd call something like Wadax Reference dac a giant, but dacs in realm of $10k doubful. Pricing of audio components is partly a function of business model. Where the component is designed, manufactured, marketing budget, distributor/dealer network or direct sales, profit margins. Its possible a $10k component actual manufacturing cost could be very close to another component that retails for much less. In this case the higher price component is not a giant, therefore, the lower price unit is not in fact a giant killer.
While I'd generally agree price correlates to quality in audio realm, there are enough products and logical reasons why this may not always hold true. Purchasing products based purely on price is rather like confirmation bias in regard to faulty posits.
Bottom line, direct comparison between two components in the exact same system, preferably one's own, is most valid estimation of a components relative value. Many long term reviews over long period of time in many different systems holds value as well. Price alone, at least without factoring in business models is not very good indicator of value.
@fleschlerWhy would I want music to sound like vinyl? I've been listening to music for over 50 years and used to have a huge vinyl collection. Digital has now taken over vinyl by a long chalk and you are welcome to it if you want to get up and change sides every 15 mins, with all the dust, fluff, static and scratches...lol.
Real music doesn't sound like vinyl...end of.
Valve amps are unrealistic.
You have to pay real money for good tranny amps.
I am enamored with the Musetec because it's brought me to a place where as others have said they feel everything is right. A rare place to be.
Don't feel like I have to change anything and I've still got ten grand to spend on cables etc.
I won't even address the other stuff you're banging on about, it's a load of bollux.
@lordmelton Great vinyl should sound like a great recording, studio or hall with close miking. It won't sound like a highly reverberant hall that is so in vogue for the last 40 years. Live acoustic music sounds great in a large venue but not so good on vinyl when recorded far from the source. Rock benefits from close miking as well. Two different listening environments deserve two different approaches, one for live music and the other for recorded music. That's my opinion (and the opinion of great recording engineers from the 50's to the 80's.
The best way is to order both for home trial and keep the one you like better. You'll hear a lot of advise about this vs that, or I heard this there and it was amazing, but none of these are apples to apples comparisons in the same room with the same equipment. Imo...first ensure what's the ambient white noise level in your listening area, THEN consider the technology and budget of the dac you want to purchase. no point buying state of the art if you live in a large city, and your room is not sound proofed or treated and you have kids running around. Or you don't actually sit down for 2 hours at a time to listen critically - at that point you are just buying status.
I have a Terminator and a Tambaqui. Both are state of the art. Both sound lifelike and real, not digital. Both are good, sensible, choices.
If you held a gun to my head I would say that the Tambaqui is better, there is just something about its bass that seems more exciting, more tuneful, than the Terminator. But if you had either, you would be a very happy bunny.
They are no longer in business as the CEO retired. The principles used to work at ESS and knew the DAC better than anyone. You sometimes see their DACs show up on the used market.
I have heard @lalitk 's Merging dac at his house. As much as I like my Denafrips Terminator 2 dac, the Merging plays in a different league. I don't think the Terminator has any liabilities as such given the price, but Merging (and also MSB Reference DAC that another friend has) provides a much higher level of sound quality. It's one of those things that you won't know until you hear them in person. We can only extrapolate so much by reading reviews or looking at graphs. You really have to experience these high end DACs in person, provided the rest of the chain is at par as well. This does not make the Terminator ii (best DAC I've ever owned) worse, but I would never claim that it plays in the same league as a Merging, MSB, Emm Labs, or Playback design. Yet to meet a true giant killer.
I just looked up Ideon Absolute DAC, high praises all around. But at $34K, it’s target audience are definitely not your average joe’s :-) In comparison, my Merging +player with Roon core and end point proven to be quite a bargain at $14K. It replaced the combo of DA2 V1/Aurender N20 in my pursuit of next level of streaming experience.
I can only say I was financially prepared to purchase Mola Mola having read enough good reviews that conformed with the sound qualities I was desiring in new dac. In continuing my deep research I serendipitously discovered Mustetec 005 on Chinese website, was impressed enough with engineering I took flyer on it. I believe I was first in North America to purchase and post impressions on NA audio forums. DBB, I believe was second to purchase and publish impressions on forum. Anyway, after year and a half ownership, I continue to be impressed by this dac, enough to not have any desire to purchase Mola Mola, Merging Technology, Aqua or any of the other top dacs on my list. I've made quite a few upgrades on both my streaming network and Coincident Statement pre, and custom built 300B SET amps since getting this dac, 005 only continues to dig deeper and sound more analog with greater exposure. It has no definitive defects I've been able to uncover, and don't know there are any assuming one's system hasn't inherent defects.
Now, I'm not going to state this dac betters the other much more expensive dacs I mentioned above, but I simply haven't felt the need to compare. That will have to be up to someone else, I continue to urge others to compare 005 to the much higher cost dacs, I want to understand if this dac has liabilities I've yet to uncover.
@lalitkis correct -- if you're interested in super high-end hifi, WBF is by far the best resource I've encountered. A lot of experienced users there, and it tends to be friendlier...
If you want to change your perspective on chip DACs, you may want to hear the Ideon Absolute DAC. Of course it's not definitive, but Alan Sircom of Hifi+ has reviewed the Merging DAC (positively), the EMM Labs DV2 (VERY positively) and the Ideon Absolute DAC (best he's heard). Even if it's outside your budget (it's certainly outside mine), it's fun and enlightening to hear what's possible.
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