@audio_bidder Sorry you had such trouble with your Lampi. I too bought new from Rob. I was attracted by the Atlantic, but as a huge fan of the single ended DHT, I decided to go with the Golden Gate 3 with Engine 11. It was perfect right out of the box, although I never used the tubes it came with. I started with EML 300B, tried a few others, and ended up stuck on the 300Bs.
I would love to compare to a Mola Mola. I have a Chord Dave and at first I thought it had blown the DAVE out of the water and would never appreciate it again, but I've had several listening sessions, often to entertain visitors, and the DAVE is still an excellent DAC.
I find the GG adds a lot of body and largeness to the sound of a non-DHT amp. Now that I have a DHT primary amp, the improvements aren't as huge but I still love the sound.
As for streamers, I have a Grimm MU1 that I love. It developed an internal cable problem and Grimm said I should send it back. Since they are in the Netherlands, I suggested they just send me a cable. but they said mine is an early model and they want to bring it up to all the current revisions at no charge so I decided to send it. Not difficult, only $117. So it is off to northern Europe. While it is gone, I am listening to my Innous Zenith Mk3. Not sure what it is about it but it just doesn't engage me the way the Grimm does. Still, I'm not complaining.
Thanks for your interesting post.
jerry
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@carlsbad2 have heard great things about GG3. I’m very happy with the sound of the Atlantic 3, just need to sort out the connectivity issues. If I go anywhere it will definitely be up the Lampi line.
So glad you weighed in on streamers. I had my eye on the Grimm MU1 but picked up a Zenith Mk 3 for a very low price. Next year I could sell it for a profit and pick up either a Grimm or LDMS server. I’m hoping someone has heard both and can provide a comparison. Do you run Roon on the Grimm? I’d like to run Roon on the Zenith but it sounds bright and thin compared to the Sense software.
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You left out the dac that bests the all the T+A 200 dac my brother owns it ,the molo molo Waay over priced ,this is retail $7200 but can be bought for less , it has HQ player ability built in as well as several dither choices and a dedicated 1 bit for DSD
add this in Holo May not as musical which I have heard side by side
Lampi warm but too soft details lost vs the 200 dac do some research on it ,then get a in home audition.
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I really appreciate this thread as I will one day be in the market for a dac. I currently use the dac inside my Boulder 866 integrated amp...which is a great sounding piece and especially when paired with my Auralic Aries G2.2 streamer. I agree with audio_bidder about the importance of a streamer. Between this streamer, a dedicated grounding box tied to an outside grounding rod, a dedicated electrical outlet, and very high quality power cables, I have a near perfect black background from which to hear sound.
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@audio_bidder I have a question about the Siemens F2A. I also have the Atlantic 3 TRP with the original stock tubes. My unit is the 3-tube unbalanced model. Is the Siemens compatible with this unit, and which tube would it replace? I looked in Lampizator notes and could find no reference to it. Thanks!
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@audio_bidder So your comment about Innuos Sense vs Roon made me go investigate it. I've heard others say that Sense sounded better and I've dismissed it because my experience tells me that Roon is a control program, neither adding or detracting from the sound. I stream Qobuz and use Roon without any DSP.
But as I said above, I \was a bit disappointed in the Innuos Zenith MK3 compared to the Grimm. So I investigated Sense. To my surprise, the Innuos sounded much more like it was supposed to. I can't help but suspect that Innuos purposely implemented roon in a way that it sounds inferior to their App. I have used Roon on many devices and have never had this experience before.
I'll have to get the Grimm back before I can compare them but it is nice to have the sound back at least closer to normal.
So far I'm not loving the Sense App. It has no windows version so I can't use it from my laptop like roon. It's controls are very small and tucked into corners. I'd much rather use a mouse. There seems to be no "play from here" choice on a playlist, but maybe there is a way to make that happen. Seems more difficult to queue up songs, maybe I can work through that. But it sounds better.
Jerry
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Interesting thread...I had a similar experience with my Lampi. I bought a new Baltic 3 from Rob shortly after they came out. I won't say it sounded bad out of the box, but certainly it improved significantly over the next several weeks. About a year later, just for fun...because I was already pretty happy with my system... I started playing around with tube rolling...swapped out the stock rectifier for an EML and was surprised to hear such a nice difference in dynamics and control. I continued the journey and swapped out the stock blue balls (PSVANE) for a set of NOS Sylvanias and WOW...the unit was completely transformed. I thought it sounded pretty good as it was but the new input tubes were dramatically better in every way. Would be interesting to do a side by side compare of my Baltic 3 with optimized tubes vs. some of the other higher end Lampi DAC's with stock tubes. My guess is that the optimized Baltic 3 narrows the gap significantly...wondering if anyone has tried the experiment?
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Interesting...
I too had the Mola Mola Tambaqui and the Holo May KTE to do an A/B (not the Lampizator though) and my findings were the same. I didn't so much try to pick out the details of the sound more than which sounded more luxurious to my ear for longer listening times. The Holo won hands down. It took me less than 1/2 hour to reach that conclusion because it was obvious.
Now, however shorty after making my decision and buying the Holo I heard about the T+A Dac and was told by a few friends that heard it that they are sure it had everything the Holo May had but also more detail.
None-the-less the Holo May will stay with me for another 5 years at least as the technology and engineering understanding increases. And to be fair these are all very good DACs.
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@audioman58 a friend of mine had Mola Mola and T+A, he ended up selling the T+A. To each his own.
@gregjacob Siemens F2A goes in the output section, you would need 2 of them, I'm running 4 because I have a balanced unit (they're super expensive in a quad). You'll also need F2A to EL34 adapters.
@carlsbad2 I had the same suspicion that Innuos made Roon sound bad intentionally, but that's speculation. The Sense app sounds really good but the UI is not stellar, I'd much prefer Roon UI. So Grimm and LDMS are on my short list.
@bh123 Baltic 3 is beloved by many. Rob said Atlantic was a notch better so I splurged. The best value would likely be Baltic plus great tubes.
@mesonto Can't go wrong with Holo May. It's a workhorse and sounds so warm and full. No plans on selling.
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Great post & thanks for sharing. Cheers
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Audio_bidder you are talking less then 2% 98% of people and I know of 8 in several states that own the T+A 200 dac not counting my brother and there is so many +++ the holomay KTE is a good dac just not as good we hav3 done direct comparisons with that one , even chord Dave chord is a bit better detailed
is very analytical balance is key having heard pretty much most everything out there the T+A 200 can compete with Anything at 2x it’s price .
check out the you tube reviews and several dealers will give you a 14 day audition lyou have nothing to loose and everything to gain . And Lampi very warm but not
even close in low level detail that was comparing with a more expensive golden gate . No dac is perfect for everyone but just check it out yourself in your system
everyone on Audiogon gives their opinion .lucky for myself I travel to many multi state audio clubs and get togethers . Which gives me a big edge being semi retired I have the time and having owned a audio store for a decade until 2010
I know audio very well ,synergy is most important more so then $$ monies. And if streaming a Good LPS power supply is essential ,since digital noise travels house to house and is not grounded. Ethernet cables , quality of Ethernet hum and power cords all come into play ,like a good turntable ,it cost $1000s not including your dac just to eliminate weak links in your digital chain.
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@audio_bidder Grimm is a great choice and there are MU1's for sale as people upgrade to the MU2. The Grimm only works with Roon so it is built to sound good with roon. It has a built in core so that simplifies your system.
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@audio_bidder - great reviews, thanks for sharing.
My DAC journey started with Denafrips Terminator. I have a very revealing analog chain and wanted a great enough DAC. Top DACs were way over my budget: Wadax, Lampi, TotalDac, MSB, APL, etc. Avoided DCS which seemed detailed but light in musical. On the affordable side I looked at the Lampi Baltic4 and the T+A200 and the took a hard look at Lampi GG3, but this time around I was looking for neutral/linear but not analytical. I’m a big fan of Lampi Lukasz who strives to give affordable high-end products like the Baltic and Poseidon, but Lampi is often described as “holographic” which seems pleasingly colored. Likely someday I’ll get a Lampi.
I finally was targeting the Playback Designs Dream DAC which was a long term stretch, then like many other manufacturers raised their price.
So when the Linn DSM/2 with Organik DAC upgrade review here and here , I purchased it used from a dealer who also said it was a sonic bargain.
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@audio_bidder I've been able to source a pair of the Siemens F2a tubes but cannot locate the F2a to EL34 adapters. Does anyone know where to locate a pair of these? Thanks in advance.
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@gregjacob Just google F2a to el34 adapter. Some pop up on eBay for $24 each. I got mine from tubeadapter.com which is a reputable Chinese site.
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@audio_bidder Tubeadapter.com has the adapter listed as "On Backorder". There are no F2a to EL34 adapters available on the web--all sold or gone. All eBay listings are gone. I even wrote to a few tube adapter vendors or tube companies, stateside and overseas. Everyone is out, from Hong Kong to Serbia. I'll be looking for a pair and probably end up finding some for a high market price.
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I have compared the May KTE and Mola Mola at length having bought the may blind based on the euphoric reviews. More fool me.
It was no contest, the may wins hands down on technicalities, more resolving, bette layering texture and better dynamics. The may paints a huge stage on all axis, presenting far more cohesive picture of the music as whole, while allowing you to focus in on individual elements and hear every detail and nuance. By contrast the MM sounds veiled and anodyne with flatter 2 dimensional stage. The only real advantage of the MM certain types of music it can sound quicker than the may, but we're talking small margins and this nowhere near makes up for its deficiencies in other areas.
i didnt want to be proved that i bought the wrong DAC, but it only took one track to know i had. i'm still left puzzled by the unanimously positive positive review.
I'm a bit of DAC addict, but it took a while to surpass the May. The aqua Formula XHD nearly did but i missed the enormous stage of the May and aqua is little too forward. I tried at least 6 or 7 other reputable contenders but have "finally" settled on the APL DSD SR SE, which is the best technical DAC i've heard, but more importantly the most natural and closest to the very very highend vinyl set ups i've heard.
Thanks for letting me get that off my chest ;-)
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@teknorob23 I’m confused. You say the Holo May beat the MM hands down, but then say, “I didnt want to be proved that i bought the wrong DAC, but it only took one track to know i had.” The DAC you bought was the May, right? What am I missing?
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Sorry my wasnt very clear. I bought the mola mola blind. Soon after my business partner bought the may round and I realised i had bought the wrong dac in the mm. I subsequently sold the mm and bought a may of my own.
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carlsbad2, You can use Sense app on your windows PC browser.
Just google https://my.innuos.com/ and if PC is on the same wifi network as your Innuos streamer, it will connect. And it works very well.
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@audio_bidder
I have a balanced GG1 w/ VC I recently upgraded to GG3. It feeds via
XLR an Allnic L8000 pre-amp. I have the GG volume at max and control with the Allnic. It sounds glorious. I have had no issues. Can you describe the problem (s).
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In conclusion, the Lampi wins overall due to it's realistic analog sound and holographic nature.
The Lampi sacrificed detail to get you a "analog" sound.
Put your files through the Daniel Hertz master class software. Thereafter, put it through the Mola Mola. Now, you will suddenly have all kinds of detail and your beloved "analog" sound together!
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@audio_bidder
Great to hear you’re enjoying your TRP3- it’s a wonderful dac. I own the Golden Atlantic TRP 3 Balanced version but opted out when it came to volume control as I already have a preamp.
If I could offer some advice I would recommend moving in the direction of single triodes next. While the F2a and EL51 are great tubes (yet overly hyped) I think you’ll find that compatible triodes are overall the better performers. While have my favorite pentodes I run triodes in my dac 95% of the time. If you’d like more information see my posts on WBF’s Lampizator TRP Tube Rolling thread.
@gregjacob
Sorry to hear of your troubles sourcing adapters for the F2A’s. You’re correct when it comes to “Tubeadapter.com” AKA Xulingmrs, from what I’ve heard they are not conducting business at this time. If you’d like a couple of leads on these adapters (or tubes and adapters) send me a pm.
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@bh123 i have a Baltic 3 that was upgraded to V4 with the new "engine 11" digital section, swapped the stock tubes for the following:
-Emission Labs EML274B EMM rectifier
-The larger tubes behind the rectifier are RCA VT99 6F8G with adaptors to 6SN7
-The small tubes at the rear row are RCA 12BH7
Have had many DACs over the years but this one set up the way i have it now is by FAR the most analog sounding and comparable to my beloved Linn LP12 Selekt with Grado Reference3 MI cart.
Agree the streamer/transport is of equal importance as well as the entire chain from the outlet through to streamer/transport. I have spend $$$ on that chain optimizing - if you can, go fiber optic, a big leap forward in search of the "black background" nirvana.
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@rikkipuu That's what folks do, set the Lampi DAC volume to 0 dB to effectively bypass the internal preamp. Indeed, that's what Rob told me to do. When doing this into PrimaLuna EVO400 preamp, the bass falls apart and sounds like a blown woofer, highs become shrill and unlistenable, everything in between loses its magic. I also attempted a Pass Labs integrated with the same result. But running DAC straight to amp everything is perfectly fine. I gave this feedback to Rob and sent a video of the issue. He checked with technical and they came back with "sounds like you're overdriving the external preamp" and nothing else. I'm stuck, because I'd like to run an external preamp.
@deep_333 Maybe, I don't know. What I strive for is emotional engagement with the music. Vinyl and digital with the Lampi get me there better than other things I've tried. So I don't notice or miss the "loss of detail" if any. I also prefer wood thin-walled speaker cabinets over ultra-damped exotic cabinets.
@designsfx now you're going to send me down another rabbit hole!!! Appreciate the tip and I'll definitely check out your thread.
@kairosman You've got that Baltic dialed in. Next year I'll go all out with cleaning up my network. Thanks for the tip on fiber optic. I'm in discussion with Lucas Domansky on a new server and he said he would give recommendations on associated network gear.
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@audio_bidder
You’re not the first to suffer preamp woes when first using a Lampizator. Every tube stage in your chain will have an effect on the others. I chose to go without volume control for this reason.
I would suggest lowering the volume on the TRP’s volume control until you find a point at which your preamp is not overdriven and offers a comfortable range of volume control. Once you discover this you shouldn’t need touch it again unless you decide to go without a preamp.
Although I wouldn’t jump into this immediately you can roll the tubes in your preamp to fine tune the voicing and performance. I know of a couple TRP owners who did this immediately and for them it changed everything for the better. I’ve not done this myself as there has never been an issue with my ARC preamp.
Good Luck and Enjoy!
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@designsfx hundreds of pages of posts on tube rolling... this has become one of my least favorite parts of being an audiophile. Could you pretty please give me the TL;DR summary of some of the top output tubes you've found for the Atlantic? As well as what you like about them?
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@audio_bidder That's what folks do, set the Lampi DAC volume to 0 dB to effectively bypass the internal preamp.
On my GG3 , setting the VC to 0dB is 0dB attenuation and maximum output or gain. This is how I have mine set up and then I set the VC on my Allnic pre to start the lowest setting and turn it up to increase the volume. I just tried setting the GG3 to the lowest level (-63dB) and then there is no output to send to the pre-amp.
My understanding of equipment design is nil but I would think that gain from a Lampi without a VC would be close to equivalent to a Lampi with a VC set to full output.
I think Lampi's position is their DAC's sound best without a pre-amp. I have yet to try my upgraded GG3 without a pre as is sounds so good with it. My GG1 sounded different without my Allnic L8000 in the chain but both ways sounded good.
I would not keep gear that does not play well, I would move on from one or the other.
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@rikkipuu I have the same assumption that a Lampi w/o VC should be equivalent Lampi w/ VC set to -0dB, but results indicate otherwise.
You make good points and I will likely reach out to Rob. I’m beginning to think the preamp section is defective.
I asked Rob if I could bypass the preamp and if I could run 2 simultaneous outputs (SE to headphone amp, balanced to speaker amps) and he unequivocally said yes and yes. Well I can’t do either without major sound issues. Trying to run both outputs simultaneously distorts the sound and actually lowers the gain at some points as I increase the volume (bizarre). Disconnecting one of the outputs alleviates the issue completely.
Boy I’d love to run an external preamp, but can’t right now!
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@audio_bidder
I did not think it was possible to bypass the pre-amp of the Lampi as it sits between the input selector and the VC.
I was unaware that all the outputs are live maybe the impedance drops when both outputs are connected. This is from a Lampi owners manual.
"The load presented by the preamp or amp or simply the next analog component that the DAC sees, should be as high as possible. It is measured in kilo-Ohms and 100Kilo Ohms is a perfect ballpark value. More is VERY rarely seen. 47 K is next common value, and it is great too. 20 K is kind of on a low side, but we can handle that. Lower than 20k is bad news. We must configure the DAC with additional cathode follower buffer stage. The DAC will not be damaged in any way, but at around 10K of load the dynamics of the dac will start to fade away"
I concerns me that you had problems with the Prima Luna pre-amp and a Pass Labs pre-amp inserted between the Lampi and your amp. It makes me think there is an issue with the DAC's output stage. When I had issues with my DAC Rob consulted with technicians in Poland. After a lot of back and forth we figured out I had a bad remote and after the upgrade they moved the power button to the bottom of the unit out of my sight.
Was your headphone amp connected at the time you tested the Pass Labs pre-amp? It seems to me you have two problems one you have a problem with using a pre-amp between the DAC and amp and also a problem with both outputs simultaneously. Have you tried using the pre-amp section of the Pass between the DAC and speakers without the headphone amp hooked up?
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