@davekayc what about 2 way bookshelf speakers? Same?
Eh hem!...Subwoofers... What do ya know?
Subwoofers are a thing. A thing to love. A thing to avoid. A misunderstood thing.
What are your opinions on subwoofers? What did you learn and how did you learn it?
What are your opinions on subwoofers? What did you learn and how did you learn it?
125 responses Add your response
Theres no magic to placing your mains . Rule of thumb is placing at eye height and the distance between them is how far either is from your head . 60 degree triangle . I’m not quite sure what you are asking but the soundstage is the biggest part . Make sure the set up is in the center of a wall . Its all about YOUR ears . Everyones ears are different. All anyone can recommend is better math. Other wise ear buds wouldnt have adapters for different shape ears. Poor symmetry makes premium equipment sound midfi . We were only talking about subs and the various methods of use. |
@davekayc I'm fighting a bass null at the sitting position so I wondered about, having the mains spread further apart but toed in at a steeper angle to limit low frequency waves going straight at the wall and being reflected back. Basically having the very toed on speakers sending low frequency waves at the rear wall at a steep angle vs nearly head on to negate the null. Unless I move at least 38% of the way into the room (better at 50%) I sit in a mid bass null. I always thought the speakers were bass shy but the sub I've been messing with has the same issue so its clearly the room and not speakers. If I mive 3ft to the right of the couch/sitting position which puts me in front of the hallway entrance the sub is delivering THUNDER. Move back to the sitting position and its a little warmer at best. |
Turn the crossover all the way down . To 50 or 63 depending what you have. Then try as i suggested which i learned from duke and tim. Put the sub in your chair. Now listen all over your room . You may have to crawl on the floor to find the hot spot . I used a phone app with the spectrum on it. And listen . There are spots all over in your room and they may not be where you think. Now put you sub at one of these spots preferrably the loudest spot . And turn your sub down. It will be far more efficient now. |
toe in helps keep reflections off the side walls . Improves clairity and stage. Dont toe in so far that they aim in front of you . Most you want is at you . my mains i set up with a building lazer. Centered , same angle and 40” from tweeter to rear wall . My focus point 20ft behind me . I dont have side reflection because my side walls are also 20ft away . My small living room is normal and my speakers aim directly at me. No sub required. |
gochurchgo, here are some starting point guidlines for a speaker placement and a youtube for the Crawl Test subwoofer placement. Since not every room has four corners, mapping out your rooms bass modes (where bass is louder) can be very usefull. http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_main.php https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV3oLLMgS-M Not every speaker system was designed to be toed in. |
Subwoofers are a poor attempt in 2 channel listening. If your speakers do not put out a decent bass response then it is what it is. Subwoofer integration should be left for Home Theatre enthusiasts looking for bombs going off in their listening spaces. I have tried sub integration and as a Bass player it does no justice. Buy a speaker that produces a proper bass responce there are enough out there. |
Bah ! Subwoofers ! You kids and your rock and roll music . My mains have all the bass response I’m sure some would like to have . But i also want six subs . And since i do what i want .. seriously though i think people do not use them properly to get a hifi effect out of them . I guarantee the majority could turn them down a notch to achieve proper reinforcement. Turn it down to the point where you actually have to feel the woofer to see its on . Then leave it there chances are if its in the right location as explained ten times on here it will sound perfect . |
Regardless of your main speaker capability in the bass, there will be instances where you will need bass re-enforcement in the room. This is going to be dependent on the room size and acoustics. The alternative is also true ( but far less often). For example, I know of a fellow a'phile who uses large Wilson Alex 2 speakers in a relatively small room. The Alex 2's have large bass drivers and can drop down into the lower 20Hz range. This fellow tried to integrate subs into his room, with little success. The reason...simple! Because the main speakers were large enough to fill his room with accurate ( this is the key point here) bass! In this particular case, it was obvious ( well to most experienced a'philes who listened to this system) that adding additional bass that essentially overloaded the room was actually undesirable! OTOH, in most other cases with speakers that can go into the low to mid 20Hz's with some ease, adding a subwoofer of commensurate quality ( Yes, that is also a very very important factor) will allow for a more defined stage and more accurate ambience retrieval. I recently attended a demo of the new ( and superb) YG subwoofer. In the VERY large room that this was demoed, it was quite obvious that the subwoofer was a major addition to the overall SQ. The main speakers were well equipped to drop down to 25-30Hz...YG Sonja's...but add the subwoofer and the whole became a lot more than the parts. Something that is quite obvious once you experience it...and perhaps less so if you are just theorizing! |
@davekayc I'm fighting a bass null at the sitting position so I wondered about, having the mains spread further apart but toed in at a steeper angle to limit low frequency waves going straight at the wall and being reflected back. Basically having the very toed on speakers sending low frequency waves at the rear wall at a steep angle vs nearly head on to negate the null. Right. Same here. Same everywhere. Exact same situation in my room. The solution is, first move the main pair and seating position around listening for smooth but not necessarily deep bass. Just try and avoid the worst spot, basically. The bass we will fix later. Then at this point get very precise in tweaking placement for imaging. It is essential at this step to get the speakers exactly equidistant and toed in perfectly symmetrically. Finally, add four subs, one on each wall, wherever they can go but preferably no two the same distance from a corner. What you will find, any single sub or speaker does exactly what you heard- lumpy uneven bass. Moving around only moves the lumps around. Adding more however creates lots of lumps that all together average out to really smooth. The wavelengths are so long and we hear bass so much differently that it hardly matters where they are, but it does matter a lot how many there are. So use more and the problem solves itself. |
The sound is much less localized in my large room. Using just my mains when I’m alone is fine . You can sense the depth of bass all the way down its roll off (below 30hz ) but large room = more people . More people needs more bass . The subtly of the deep bass is no longer existent over people talking after 3-4 drinks. And you want the ability to flex your audio muscles in this case. You can be an audio snob when youre alone or else people will quit coming over. Most people dont care or have a clue to what their listening to . I’ve explained my system to out of town family and they looked at me like i was effed in the head. Anyways , Read why the swarm got a golden ear award then shut off the computer . |
Subjectivity and personal taste aside, clearly there are those who simply haven't experienced the advancements of current Extra Low Frequency implementation and/or software design. Even if your speakers are equipped with built in self powered subwoofers, in all likelihood those subs are not optimally placed within their environment to take full advantage of their integrational and presentation potential. Which is why their manufactures often demonstrate them in conjunction with outboard subwoofers. Wilson, Magico, Focal, etc. all produce subwoofers. Its not the novelty of loud bass. Its advanced adjustability of multiple ELF parameters and thier programable control. |
@millercarbon 4 subs is a no go for me. I live in an apartment after all. I did try to move the sub next to the couch and I feel like I have it so it integrates well and isn't apparent thats its next to the sitting position. All in all it remedies most of the problem at the sitting position. I would really rather NOT have subs at all so I don't know. I haven't had time to sub crawl AND I'm also going to play with the height of the mains. These came with 24" tall stands but have a 3"+ front port that puts the tweeters way over my ears (bass is better standing also). I'm going to try putting them on 18" tall solid objects to see what happens. |
So I took the mains off their stands and put them on top of some weights. They are about 1 foot off the ground now. Sound is warmer but still not getting that low bass “bump”. If I stand up and put my head right above my head sitting there it is. what I can’t get my head around is what the couch is doing to make this happen. I pushed the couch out of the way and there it is. Seems like it should be the other way around. The couch is against a flimsy metal frame table that’s 12” deep which then is sandwiched against the rear wall. Could that cavity somehow be adding to things? Edit; moved the now lower stand speakers back 8” or so and now im gettijg better bass. The imaging isn’t as good so that sucks. My speakers are -6db at 50hz but are really -6 for everything below 110hz and front ported. Now I’m more curious about a 40hz rear ported speaker would do. Hmmmm. i now better understand the subwoofer’s role in things. Being able to bring my mains out 25” from the back wall (rear of speaker) and have the sub make up the bass I lose allowing the imaging that comes with being out into the room is cool. |
it puzzles me why individuals buy speakers with poor bass response Let’s convert the word "poor" and say "deep." The smaller the speaker, the less likely you are to run into room mode problems, not to mention matching the decor (yes, this is important) and finding the ideal place for them. Pretend physical size is not an issue. Say you have a 6" cube speaker that is flat 16Hz to 30kHz in a test chamber, with infinite dynamic range. That could be a terrible sounding speaker in a lot of rooms. Speakers that measure anechoically to a -3dB point at around 40-60 Hz may end up being a lot better balanced in a room. So the purist, who eschews equalization, if having to choose the best balanced speakers in his room, may end up with a speaker with limited bass. I’m going to argue, again, that a lot of issues people attribute to subwoofers and ported speakers have less to do with speed and distortion and a lot more to do with how many dragons they wake in the depths. If money is no object, build an acoustically ideal listening room with giant speakers. If you don’t really care about boutique DAC’s and preamps, then a pre or integrated with DSP room correction is going to be your drug of choice. In the middle of this are a variety of interesting opportunities:
So, to answer the question, it makes perfect sense to me why audiophiles would choose speakers with limited bass response. Getting deep high output bass is complicated, and expensive, and for a lot of music lovers not in their field of expertise. A high quality two way is often their sweet spot. |
I am using a sub for the very first time and lots of usefull info here. I run Vandersteen 5a and Von Schweikert VR4 HSC in my main system, both have great bass. I got a chance to get a pair of CLSII panels and a Depth i sub, both are a first for me. Integrating the sub has been a slow process of experimentation. This may sound like a dumb question but since the sub has three drivers firing in different directions does this create the effect of multiple subs ? |
This may sound like a dumb question but since the sub has three drivers firing in different directions does this create the effect of multiple subs ? It does give you more bass than a single 8" driver would otherwise, but it’s not like having separate subs individually placed. The direction they are pointing in is kind of irrelevant assuming they can all breathe. Using three 8" subs you get the surface area of around a 12" sub, maybe a little less. The direction they are pointing in probably has more to do with aesthetic choices. The reason for using multiple separate subs is to try to equalize room modes. The situation where you have big peaks and valleys in the bass response. I notice it has no built in EQ. You absolutely want to use an EQ with a sub. It will make integration a lot easier. So will bass traps if you find you have big nulls. |
@vuongp, The CLSII are a new experience for me. Hard to describe but the notes just seem to have so much precense and air. When I first got them and started playing them my wife and daughters came out and sat and listened, they were wowed. My current speakers are the Vandy 5a, Von Schweikert VR4 Gen III HSC and a recently aquired pair of Mezzo Utopias but the CLS panels are what made them come out and listen. The Vandys have terrific bass and great detail but they dont do well with rock. When I play jazz or blues they are great. As to the power, my main system is comprised of: Musical Fidelity M6PRE Musical Fidelity M6PRX amp Denon DP80 in custom plinth with 12in Jelco and Ortophon 2M Black Mytek Brooklyn Dac + Nuc running Roon Rega Apollo as a transport I am running the Utopias in a second system with a Levinson 27 and an audible illusions pre |
Everytime i hear a rig with a sub for 2 channel, i can HEAR the subwoofer, its not a balanced / natural tone to my ears. I know this can be tweaked but i have yet to hear one that i liked. Golden Ear, Martin Logan and other speakers that have self powered subs do a better job at integration than an external unit but i still always HEAR a sub in the room. I do have a sub for cinema but when listening two channel i prefer a passive speaker configuration. |
I’ve always been able to hear where they are . And thats not good . Its the room and the placement and its the equalization. I am happiest I’ve ever been after duke and tim shed some light on dukes swarm . Its incredible. What it did to my mains and the whole room is beautiful. Unfortunately not everyone is going to have room for 4+ subs. A single high dollar sub would cost as much but not be able to compete sound wise. |
Everytime i hear a rig with a sub for 2 channel, i can HEAR the subwoofer, its not a balanced / natural tone to my ears. And this is the problem for me, who bats for team sub. Most subwoofers are not integrated well. When they are, they are magic, when not, they call attention to themselves. When speakers and subs are done correctly with moderate room treatment and EQ they all disappear. The benefit of the sub seems to improve the performance of everything, not just percussion and movies, and extend the dynamic range apparently to infinity. So, what to advise a music lover who just wants good sound? That is the question. Get a big enough speaker, and you end up with the same issues. Get naive or poor room EQ, with poor room acoustics, and you end up with a frankenspeaker effect. |
WOW! What a bunch of total bass freaks! My magnepan 3.6’s drop off at 30 Hz and sound great. Bass quality has a lot to do about power amp quality. You can not be a cheapskate. How much musical info is below 30 anyway? To hear sound below 30 you need way too much volume. That would disturb my neighbors below. And the peaks, valleys, and echo slap are too much to deal with. Multiple (4 or 5) subwoofers ruin the bass sounstage. |
Don c55 have you exhaustively set up , tweeked then disliked 4 subwoofers ? It makes your sound stage that much bigger. The beauty part is that you dont make your bass any louder. each device runs a bit lower . And if set up properly , puts the bass focused where you want it. If there was content would you not want to hear it ? Especially considering its at the portion of the audible spectrum that doesnt require bat ears . Your sound stage is freed of the mud that is made with poorly set up system . |
I’ve always been able to hear where they are . And thats not good .Then they are running higher than 80Hz. To hear sound below 30 you need way too much volume. That would disturb my neighbors below.This is entirely incorrect. There is no 'bass soundstate' at less than 80Hz; below that frequency bass is perceived as omnidirectional. It is the harmonics of the bass instruments that gives you the soundstage. In the meantime, multiple subs get rid of the 'peaks, valleys and echo slap' since bass 'echo slap' is what causes standing waves in any room. |
Everytime i hear a rig with a sub for 2 channel, i can HEAR the subwoofer, its not a balanced / natural tone to my ears @redmosessc if you ever close to Miami lakes, FL let me know so you can come by and listen by yourself, I have 4 subs and you need to put your hand on the driver sometimes to check if these are working. Of course you can hear what they produce but not in the boomy subwoofery effect, very natural indeed |
Just wanted to add that using the downloadable calculator here I think the measurements I entered fairly well replicate what I am hearing. For fun I put in specs for speakers I am interested in and they really do add seem to alleviate the issues. Assuming this calculator is symbolic of my issues of course. I didn't enter what Focal says the low frequency roll off is, but rather Stereophile's summed measurement at -3db |
redmosessc10 posts12-16-2019 11:35amEverytime i hear a rig with a sub for 2 channel, i can HEAR the subwoofer, its not a balanced / natural tone to my ears. I know this can be tweaked but i have yet to hear one that i liked. Golden Ear, Martin Logan and other speakers that have self powered subs do a better job at integration than an external unit but i still always HEAR a sub in the room. I do have a sub for cinema but when listening two channel i prefer a passive speaker configuration. I agree. Speakers with built in subs can have better speaker to sub integration. Unfortunately optimal speaker locations may be a poor choice for subwoofers with extra low frequency capabilities exciting a rooms bass modes and nulls. Raising the speaker subs low pass filter helps but defeats the subs capabilities of producing a surprising amount of recorded ELF. Multiple stand alone subs can reduce or eliminate room interactions but that's only one aspect of subwoofer integration. Unless there is some means of comprehensive multi-band parametric frequency equalization, Q, and gain control through the crossover region without using high pass filtering, matching the stand alone subs to the speakers presentation is impossible. An alternative is to select a hard crossover point and reduce the gain until the subwoofers noticeability is reduced which many consider state of the art. Its not. |
n without using high pass filtering, matching the stand alone subs to the speakers presentation is impossible. @m-db is not impossible, on my specific case the subs and the speakers are manufactured by the same company, speakers crossover and speakers themselves are tuned to the 4 subs and integrated with dsp amps. The beauty of it is you can follow the designers integration recommendations or you can try to play and better the designers intentions (not that you could have a real chance to improve it much) tweaking dsp etc. As and added convenience 2 out of the 4 subs share the same footprint as the speakers so no extra space needed. I have to add that I personally like the idea of separate subs from the speakers better in terms of location, true you need some extra real estate but not much and you have more options to locate the subs, you can even tweak with the vertical plane and locate 1 or 2 in your ceiling if you are up to the task (I am not) In the case the designer is not the same you still can find speakers with proper integration, most speakers are ranged starting at 50 hz 60hz you could use dsp to match these values as well or modify the xover like you mentioned |
Erik said it best, "
Hard to integrate well. Glorious when done right." I've used subs for many years now, mostly to augment stand mount two way's. Up until I had my current setup, my system had to work the best it could in our living room, with minimal options to make changes to the room to accommodate the sub. Now that I have a dedicated room, one that is much larger than the living room and whose dimensions are nearly square, integrating my current subs was incredibly frustrating! Before applying room treatments, the only way to minimize the room adding a single note to whatever the bass line in the music was, was to position them behind the sofa, in approximately the mid-point of the room. The problem with that was the "disconnect", where the performers seemed to be in front of the listener, but the impact of the low bass came from behind. I eventually was able to "tame" the added "single note" by purchasing a calibrated microphone and REW, to help place 10 bass traps. Now when I listen, as my wife says, it's in my "padded cell". |
pretty solid article on sub integration. https://jlaudio.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/205061040-Adding-a-Home-Audio-Subwoofer I am preparing to integrate a pair of JL E112 subs in my system...showing up in a few days... I will first try high level connection right from the amp terminals to the subs HLE input...then try a Jensen Iso-Max speaker level to line level isolation device...I think ultimately though the JL CR-1 (or similar) the ideal solution for integration mostly because the latency can be better controlled; I initially plan on placing them like this (on the insides of the speakers); https://imgur.com/Paj46Ti feedback welcome! |
+1 for measurements +1 for Mini-DSP Audiophiles make fun of the home theater crowd. The home theater crowd makes fun of audiophiles. Both groups can learn something from the other. Subwoofers should be sized according to the room. I had Vandersteen 2ci speakers in a small room approximately 11x14 and they sounded great, I moved them to a much larger space and the magic disappeared. I did not need a subwoofer for the smaller room. I did need a subwoofer or more for the larger room. Timing matters! I do not have automatic room correction. I use two JTR, S2 subwoofers in the basement. A friend familiar with free REW software came over to help dial them in. My room is 29 feet long. One subwoofer is in the front left corner. The other sub is located in the right rear of the room. The subs were level matched so they both played at the same volume at the major listening position. The subs were then individually measured and the individual measurements laid over one another via the program. The goal was to make two sign waves from two subs appear as one. The delays were made in the Mini-DSP until the sign waves were as close as possible. My friend then proceeded to time align each speaker to the subs. Again the goal is to over-lay all individual measurements and have them appear as one sign wave. We did not get it exact. We gave my multi-channel system a tune up. Now instead of an 8 cylinder engine running on 6 cylinders I had a system working together as intended. Prior to my friend coming over, I had pulled out a tape measure and set speaker distances. The distance measured by tape was different than the distance measured electronically. After timing alignment, I was able to reduce my listening volume by 10db and maintain the same enjoyment and listening intelligibility. I know many use automatic room correction and assume it is correct, you don’t know until you measure. You cannot just do the math to determine delays, the room and things in the room affect how sound travels. According to the math I should need 7-8 seconds of delay. Measuring with a mic resulted in 5.811 second delay. After alignment my system measured +/- 3 Db from 100Hz to 6Hz. I tried to listen to my flat system and did not enjoy it. I tried increasing the overall sub volume, but that resulted in bloated bass. I finally did some equalization in the Mini-DSP and the system came alive. I was able to reduce the overall sub volume back to where it initially measured flat. As someone mentioned earlier, we do not hear all frequencies at the same level. Lower frequencies must be louder to be heard evenly. Equalization helps accomplish this according to individual taste. My system produces great bass for movies but for music you may not know the subs are playing. After the changes, there have been a number of times I have really been surprised at the bass content while viewing non-action movies. I use Innersound Eros speakers for two channel listening. The speaker is essentially two electrostatic panels on top of two ten inch transmission line subs. Bass is omnidirectional but there are recordings where two instruments that produce notes below 80 Hz are used. There are recordings where two pianos or two drum sets are used. A properly set up system can reveal that multiple pianos, drums, guitars are being used, just as a quality set of stereo speakers can reveal multiple singers harmonizing as one. In my humble opinion stereo subwoofers can help a listener detect the dual instruments in those recordings. In my humble opinion, from my humble experience |
@erik_squires Can you detail this thought please: "Speaker level inputs are subject to the amp/speaker impedance matching" My amp's Zout is much less than an ohm (according to Luxman the damping factor is around 700); The Zin of the powered sub, according to JL's manual is about 4,500 ohms; The back EMF on the speaker cables should be super low, as the speaker "sees" a super low "load" across a very low DCR speaker cable; If I was using an amp with high Zout (say 1ohm), then I could do some math and find, possibly in the 30-100hz region a reactive speaker impedance appearing to be "real" resistance of a similar magnitude to the zout of the amp, then causing a voltage drop the speaker sees, basically a frequency dependent voltage sag; But how would, even in a high output impedance amp, this affect the signal at the amps output eventually reaching the active subs 4.5K zin? My main concern about taking the signal to the sub from the amplifier output terminals, is the time delay that can never be made up by any adjustment in the subs crossover settings; I could delay phase by a full 360 degree to align the peaks, but i'm actually off a whole cycle. This seems bad for impulse response, bass drum hits, bass guitar lines, etc, might be perceived to be "fatter" but smeared. I don't know, maybe i'm going off in the weeds here and none of this actually amounts to a loss in perceived fidelity at the chair; I guess I will find out soon enough. I can see myself diving into the active crossover just because it seems so elegant and proper-- here we have total control over the timing latency and sub/main handoff; Cheers |
Hi @dpac996 So, if I understand correctly, you want to take an amplifier’s output as the input to the subwoofer, correct? And that this output would be shared beteen your main speaker and the subwoofer's input? If not, disregard all of this. :) Now, onto theory and experience! Measurements show that while the effect of an average speaker load on a solid state amplifier is small, it isn’t zero. If you look at the Stereophile simulated speaker load, https://www.stereophile.com/content/real-life-measurements-page-2 they estimate a minimum impedance in the bass of around 6 Ohms, while my experience says this is often in the 3 Ohm or less. So, take a moderately solid integrated, like the Luxman 509, whose deviation from flat based on that load is here: https://www.stereophile.com/content/luxman-l-509x-integrated-amplifier-measurements The effect of the simulated speaker is very slight, honestly, around +- 0.1 dB. So lets say that at 3 Ohms that’s twice as much, +- 0.2 dB. My experience has shown that this is sometimes audible, making speakers seem more demanding of an amplifier. For this reason, if you can take the signal from the preamp instead, which will have a flat impedance presented to it, you can avoid any such issues. In other words, while I understand the math of output impedance, speaker impedance, voltage and current, my experience says that around 3 Ohms is enough to demonstrate a difference among a lot of amplifiers. I wouldn’t want to use that as a reference voltage for that reason. PS - I own a Luxman 507ux myself. Very happy with it, but when I set up my sub, I’ll be taking the signal from the pre out. :) Best, E |