Dual SVS PB-1000 Pro versus Dual Rythmik LV12F- does Servo Technology Matter.

@bladerunner6

Your room is 10' x 12' and you will have placement issues for sure. I would lean towards the SVS SB (sealed box) type of sub, which one depends on your budget and space constraints. Whatever you do decide on though, seriously consider incorporating a Dspeaker 8033s into the mix. I had dual subs in my listening room (11x15x8) and it did wonders to control peak issues and made placement a snap.  I currently use a 8033c for my LR HT set up on a single SVS 12" cylinder sub with fantastic results.

Good luck and hope it all works out...
Can be bought here: https://www.underwoodhifi.com/products/dspeaker scroll to bottom of page
Dspeaker site: http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products/anti-mode-8033.shtml

Who's to say you can't have a serious system using an AVR? You most certainly can! The total harmonic distortion of SVS subs in every review I’ve come across at Audioholics is well within reason, provided they aren’t driven past their limits.

I run dual Rhythmik F12’s along with two Rel T7i’s with great success in my two channel rig. All integrate seamlessly with my KEF LS50 Metas. Takes a bit of time and patience to get them correct, but evens out any standing wave issues. I started with one Rhythmik and things just got smoother as I added! I have a small listening room with judicious treatment. I also have a separate theater set up in another room, so am not able to answer to that, but I can recommend Rhytmik for their speed and musicality and the Rels add a bit more punch!

Set a price point and expectations relative to the room,
then all those out of the question suggestions will or should 
be eliminated. 
Generally people have a need to justify "their" purchase or
opinion without consideration of the OP inquiry.

@bladerunner6


Other audio forums will likely give you advice without all the drama. This forum has become more contentious over the years. Sadly, the reliable, experienced, thoughtful participants comprise less and less of the dialog. 

The reason, I’m my opinion, is that this site is hosted by an entity that offers services to individuals and companies that wish to buy and/or sell audio gear. Getting rid of forum members is tricky for that reason. I get it.


Forums that are run and moderated by enthusiasts are more likely to purge troublesome forum participants. It’s a more conducive environment for a hobby. It’s enjoyable and fun.


I enjoy this forum and appreciate Audiogon hosting. Audiogon themselves are the subject of criticism at times, which is not cool in my book. It’s like whining because you didn’t like the free sample cocktail weenie you just bit into.


This whole tough love audio advice idea puzzles me. Since when did the hobby of stereos and related products become so rough and rugged?


It’s not uncommon to read posts where members are afraid to tell their spouse what they spend/spent on audio. Not exactly pirates….


Bottom line is, you can navigate these waters without all the storms. Use your patience wisely and have fun.

Hello OP,
I wish MC would give you one of his smart but sarcastic postings. For someone who has 5 postings that was very rude. We do get a little snarky around hear and if you took offense to my snarky remarks, I do sincerely apologize for that. Unless I took what you said the wrong way I do believe there was no snarky remarks in your last post. We can look up what things cost and give you better option from all of our experience. Can you fathom how much money was wasted on mistakes In this forum. You talk about people not having a lot of money. We know! That’s why we offer advise. A lot of us know the median income is $60k. Regardless of what you make or what you have it is stupid to waste money. A penny saved is a penny earned. My A$$. A penny saved is .0125 earned. Don’t forget the taxes. So the next time you ask for help give detailed information. That’s on you. You made that mistake. We have asked that over and over. Plus when you do get the great advise. Just say “thank you”. We do not work for you. I still cannot believe you were giving us an economics lesson in an audio forum. 

bladerunner6, welcome to AudiogoN.
Speaking for those who are obviously offering suggestions by sharing their actual experiences, apologies for the somewhat elitist snark that the well fertilized internet seems to produce. 
Clearly, your 'seriously' interested in your speaker systems performance and this is the Speaker forum. Welcome.  

refast
Rhythmik.  I have an E15, sb3000, and vtf2, and 3 different bass guitar set ups.  

Low down and dirty? I'd love to hear what your playing through.
I'm a Fiddle player paired down to an Acoustic Image Focus 2R/Upshot rig and sometimes just the Avalon U5 DI. One trip to and from the car.

I will be more concrete in stating my budget when posting on Audiogon.  Just because you can spend $5000 or whatever on subwoofers doesn’t mean most people can.  The median US income is a bit over $60k a year.  After food, clothing, shelter, insurance, telecommunications expenses, heating, water, sewage, taxes, retirement savings etc most people can not  spend untold thousands on audio equipment.  My lovely wife and I make a fair amount above the median but we still have limits.  EVERYONE should keep in mind that different people have different budgets.

I really do not care. 

Cheers!

Also, if I ever ask a question again on Audiogon I will ask that people that believe in cables, power conditioning, the superiority of analog, etc to avoid posting.

Well, if that’s the way you feel about it then don’t say something like...

While the subs will almost certainly work hardest for home theater I do want something that also works well for serious music listening.

When you say “serious music listening” on this site people will always point to your AVR because no one here “serious” about listening uses an AVR, and if you don’t understand that then it is you, sir, who have the credibility problem here.  Either just say “music listening” or post your suggestion on an HT site where you won’t have to suffer people who truly are “serious” about music listening and are more on your level. But don’t come on here and tell us our intentions are misplaced the way you asked your question. It’s not our responsibility to somehow know we need to dumb our answers down just for you.

For the few people that posted useful information and comments, thank you.

However, I have learned various things from this post:

I will be more concrete in stating my budget when posting on Audiogon.  Just because you can spend $5000 or whatever on subwoofers doesn’t mean most people can.  The median US income is a bit over $60k a year.  After food, clothing, shelter, insurance, telecommunications expenses, heating, water, sewage, taxes, retirement savings etc most people can not  spend untold thousands on audio equipment.  My lovely wife and I make a fair amount above the median but we still have limits.  EVERYONE should keep in mind that different people have different budgets.

Also, if I ever ask a question again on Audiogon I will ask that people that believe in cables, power conditioning, the superiority of analog, etc to avoid posting.

You are wasting your time, you have no credibility.  I say this for both your and my sake.

There is no point to you posting something that I will ignore.  You not posting to my questions saves you time, so please understand this benefits you.


Again, I thank the few helpful posters.  

@pedroeb, analogue isn’t missing bits of information.  The higher the bitrate, the less info gone.  
To say digital is superior to analogue is not correct.

And AVR’s are not going to get you the same sound quality as a good 2 channel amp.

Any other falsehoods you’d like to spread?

Hello,
👋, Yes I just woke you up by virtually slapping you. Please, Please do not keep going down this rabbit hole. You have a great start with your Denon 3700. The reason is you can divert the two front channels and use them for height channels. This is a very rare feature. Plus they lower or shut off the preamp to the channels not being utilized. This is a small room. Do you know how much pressure a sub can create in a room that small.  If you are serious about two channel please look into a preamp and amp with home theater bypass. Emotiva has a preamp that does this. $750 used on Agn. Please do not use their amps. Too cold for music. Great for HT.  You can buy so many really good amps that will not break the bank. A better idea is a Hegel H95 integrated amp. You can use those beautiful crazy damping amps to push your front L+R speakers for home theater and 2 channel music.  Killer DAC on board. Being that people upgrade to the H120 and H190 all the time they become available on AGN. It has a built in DAC and streamer but also lets you use your 3700 for HT. If you can afford it, go for a REL T series after you buy the Hegel.  These subs have a connection for your two channel via the Speakon connection from the amp or the RCA line in. Plus, it has a separate dedicated LFE. I am picking REL because of size and the three ways to incorporate it into your system. Your subs are fine for now. If you want a dedicated room shaker plug a cheep bigger sub into the Denon and point it at the wall. In that room you will shake the paint off the wall. Believe me small SVS is not your choice unless it is for shaking the room. You can do that with a $100 used sub. Also, the micro subs need to be placed in specific spots to sound the best. Typically in front between your two front speaker out in the room. You want flexibility in a room that small. Hegel H95 is your best bet. Add One or TWO small REL subs and you are done forever. Oh, that Blueray player you are using for HT. Connect it digitally via Coax or toslink to the Hegel. It will work awesome as a transport. The rest you can stream from your phone to the Hegel until you buy a BlueSound NODE. Not 2i. You want the new one so you can use that kick A$$ USB in the Hegel in the future. If anyone has this same issue try this store in the Chicagoland area . https://holmaudio.com/
They are a dealer for Hegel. The Rel and Denon will be bought elsewhere. They did have a few used RELs the last time I was their picking up my Hegel V10 Phono Preamp. Also, I am demoing a Hegel H190. If I was to start over I would go the Hegel route except my room is much bigger so I have two HL Audio F110 subs with the CR1 crossover. Talk about removing paint. Sorry for the brash start. I don’t want you wasting money especially in a small room. 

Rythmik is SOOO much better than SVS.

Look at reviews of new sis 3000 micro. It’s only $800 and has smartphone software to make proper integration much easier. 

Ah, the OP asks for sub recommendations and it sparks the age old debate of if you “can” do home theater and 2 channel listening in the same space, shared equipment.  Before I get to that.  
I’ve got an REL sub, 2 SVS subs.  I was surprised at how well the SVS keeps up with the REL in 2 channel.  I can’t comment on Rythmik, but sounds like either will be a winner with Rythmik a better fit for music.  I would say the SVS subs totally outshine the REL in HT performance, that’s to be expected though as the REL is designed for 2 channel listening. 
On one of the age old debates… if you have a nice set of speakers, subs that work well with both music and HT, absolutely you can have a great set up for both.  Is there truth in an AVR receiver not holding up to a stand alone 2 channel amp, yes there is.  To get the best out of 2 channel adding an integrated or pre amp / amp with HT Bypass solves that issue.  The extra amp for 2 channel will in most cases improve HT performance if using an AVR Receiver to power all channels.  
That all said, are there potential trade offs if you have your system in a space that shares the space and the majority of the equipment for both HT and 2 channel, sure.  You might lose out on speaker placement flexibility, component placement, length of cables, speaker wire, room treatment and have a limit on the overall budget (money).  All those are legit points made by 2 channel purists and 2 channel will be more affected by the above. 
Done right you can have a great, I mean great set up for both, in the same space.  And a great HT set up is night and day to any 2 channel set up for movies, despite what some might say.  
It comes down to priorities and how important both are to you.  Will your 2 channel be the harder of the 2 to dial in and could sharing the space make it harder to squeeze the last little bit of goodness out of your space, equipment, that is legit.

Curiousjim:

I have thought about doing dual SB1000 Pros.  I would order a pair of each and see which ones we like best.  But that seems a bit exploitive of SVS’s return policy so I hesitate.

I would start with one first and focus on the music side. Then play around with placement snd make note of the differences. First placement I would do is set it up behind your seated position. This will expand the sound stage and add depth to the music. I like REL for music as they use A/B amps, I am not a fan of most class D amps for music (they are getting better but not there yet). If you get to 2 channel set to your liking and are not happy with the movie sound then add the second and go through the same set up. Personally I have two separate systems for music and home theater. Share the same room but totally independent jobs.

Rhythmik.  I have an E15, sb3000, and vtf2, and 3 different bass guitar set ups.  All great, and you can’t go wrong, but Rhythmik best for music as it sounds just a bit tighter and more controlled.

OP just a bit of information. GRs OB servo kits use Rythmik servo plate amps.. They added a step baffle (increase db in a certain range). Good AB plate amps.. Quiet, with quit a few options.

Regards 

bladerunner6,

With the Denon and in a room that size, the 2 SVS SB1000 Pro’s will be fantastic for movies and music. I’m thinking the PB1000’s will be to boomy.

All the best.

JD

The Rythmik servo subwoofers are very fast and are not "boomy" at all. Just good clean bass. I use a Rythmik FV-18 with my La Scala's. It's an amazing combination. They are also really responsive to questions about system integration.   

I’ve been using 2005 vintage Velodyne DLS 12” subs and still find no need to upgrade. It’s a powered sub with VC accelerometer servo control for the Distortion Limiting System. Fully adjustable everything with a remote. I prefer the tight servo control of the woofer, over leaving it solely to box tuning. 

AVRs and serious music listening are entirely compatible, provided you know what you are doing.

Uh, due respect, no. Just...no. And it’s not a matter of setup either. AVRs are designed to meet a price point the mass market will accept, which of necessity means more critical and expensive parts (i.e. power supplies, etc.) are of significantly lesser quality than those that can be incorporated into a good standalone stereo preamp, amp, or integrated. Not to say AVRs can’t sound decent and be entertaining to listen to, but no one who’s serious about sound quality uses an AVR. Period, full stop. Heck, even people serious about surround music will use a better quality AVP and separate amp, not an AVR.

It’s a myth propagated by purists unable to accept the digital era is a massive step forward over the limits of tapes and valves. It’s sad they seem unable to let go of the past and keep finding excuses why analog is superior.

Digitally-sourced and -processed music can sound fantastic, it’s AVRs that are inferior.

One of the most musical subs on the market is the Rel, check them out not cheap though about four grand for good ones.

Anyone who preface's their post with due respect, is obviously going to show no respect and consequently doesn't deserve any respect.

AVRs and serious music listening are entirely compatible, provided you know what you are doing. Setting up stereo is little more than plug and play, but correctly setting up a multi channel AVR to sound correct is complex. It's a myth propagated by purists unable to accept the digital era is a massive step forward over the limits of tapes and valves. It's sad they seem unable to let go of the past and keep finding excuses why analog is superior.

Here's the definitive consideration; a live orchestra at full strength never sounds soft and warm (read lacking) as does the sound that comes from tapes and valves.

A good sub will work well for either home theater or music.  What might be "good enough" for most home theaters might not be good enough for both however.

Then again, there are folks that take their home theater systems to pretty extreme levels where only the best will do and are just as concerned with sound quality as two channel "audiophiles".

bstatmeister:

Do you have any experience yourself with the Rythmik I am looking at?

Thanks

Rythmik for music, that's an easy one.. The reason for servo tech is music, nothing to do with HT.. Just like HT has nothing to do with music.
Unless "The Little Mermaid" singing counts.

They both make boom boom, ONE is better for music..

I use GRs OB servo and direct coupled Mid bass in IB cabinets. VERY controlled, VERY tight.

Either will work if you get rid of the floor and wall delivery system
Decouple, it's night and day for clarity and bass timing issues..

Regards

Using a home audio receiver isn't what I would consider "serious listening", but to answer your question, you won't go wrong either way. 

I have 4 subs in my main system, 2 are Rythmik, 2 are SVS.  They're both great subs.

I have 2 small systems in small rooms like yours.  One has a Rythmik F15 and the other an SVS SB-12 NSD.  If I had to choose, I'd go with Rythmik, but the SVS subs are very good and a little more bang for the buck. 

While I'm a proponent of multiple subs, you should be fine with a single sub in a room that small.  I'd go with a sealed sub.

I am still mostly sold on the SVS but I wonder if the servo technology of the Rythmik might give me somewhat better performance for music.

I have to say I agree with @artemus_5 that debating between these two subs is small potatoes versus the negative affect the AVR is having on your 2-channel sound (although I do wholeheartedly agree with you idea of adding two subs as they’ll greatly improve both your HT and stereo experience). At this point I’d say get the SVSes as they’re probably cheaper and offer better integration tools, and use the $$$ saved to put toward the eventual purchase of a good stereo integrated amp you can seamlessly incorporate into your HT system with the front L/R pre outs on your Denon. You’ve got good speakers, and I think you’ll be amazed at how much more they’ll give you in 2-channel performance fed with a good stereo integrated. Hope this helps, and best of luck.

I think the servo tech in the rythmiks will decrease distortion allowing tighter bass that you want for music. You can't go wrong with Rythmiks for either application.

With all due respect, I don't think" serious music listening and AVR' belong in the same sentence. For music I'd choose Rel. But for movie explosions et al I'd try the Rythmic