Don't read you'll be sorry

If you read audio quests description, they don't clearly say the k2 wire is solid silver. They talk about a smooth surface when they discuss silver, so maybe it is only supposed to be silver coated.

Here is the description that was supposed to be at the picture posted on my system page the Audiogon website cuts at a quotation mark ?

Here are some more pictures of the wire - it's definitely silver plated copper and it appears to have the right geometry and size of conductors a pair of 17 Gauge and a pair of 20 gauge labeled Treble on one side of the wire and a pair of 16 gauge and a pair of 19 gauge conductors on the other side labeled Bass - the conductors measure right sized with a caliper. On each side there are a small gauge unused white wire as well as a naked ground wire that's connected to the black lead on each end. Each side have a foil shield and the 3 filler leads between the conductor leads appears to be cotton or similar thread.

I suspect that once some people see $8500 cable for $380 they cannot resist and the fact that it is made in China makes whole thing believable. Of course there is also placebo effect - if you believe that it is K2 it will sound like one.

Yes strange indeed - I've posted another picture with a lot more detail as well as description

I hooked up the wire in my system last night and listened for a few hours, its OK but slightly "lighter" sounding than my Kimber 16TC which projects more "weight"

Anyway a fun little experiment with a expected outcome - you get what you pay for :-)

As always - Good listening

Thanks

Peter

well, thats my point. If it is silver coated, it isnt regular Rockefeller cable. PBN says the cable sheath says Rockefeller 3. I cant find any info on the "3" version to know if it is different that regular Rockefeller. but even if it isnt, it is being sold at 1/3 the price of regular Rockefeller, with different connectors, sheathing, and interior packaging. Seems like a lot of work for little gain. why not just call it rockefeller and sell it for 1/3 retail price without the additional work? Very odd business model.

Manitunc, Asuuming that this wire is Rockefeller. It could be another layer of deception since we're dealing with dishonest people. Bezels, wrapping and connectors are most likely very cheap.

also, in checking the Rockefeller specs, there is no silver. coating or otherwise. So, what is this wire actually?

So somebody is getting Rockefeller 3 wire, wrapping it in K2 sheath and K2 bezel and connectors and selling them for 1/3 of US retail? And then shipping them from China to US. Does this make financial sense to anyone?

Peter...wait a minute, let me see if I got this right. What you are saying is that Tycobb has struck out???

Maybe he shouldn't write this post or he'll be sorry!!

Thanks Peter.

Mofi and the rest of the gang - here they are

Relabeled Audioquest wire

Peter,

You could post them on your "system" page here on Audiogon. You could also post them to a flickr or photobucket account.

MoFi I'd love to but don't know how/where, maybe you could point me in some direction on this - and I'll get them uploaded asap.

Thanks

Peter

Peter,

I knew that these weren't the real thing. Thanks for spending your money and time and playing detective.

Is there any way you could post pictures somewhere of the cables you deconstructed? That would be great to see.

Well the "mystery" is solved. I today received my "K2" speaker cables - paid $ 371 for them delivered via DHL. They came in a nice box and looked to be "real"

I decided to take them apart to see what the scoup was and this is what I found.

The cables have the "correct" color cable jacket on them Black and Silver, the aluminum bezels are silkscreened "K2"

The internal wires are silver clad copper - so here is a mismatch as the K2 is supposed to be solid silver, these are not.

I removed the bezel at the end of the wire where it split into two and cut away the heat shrink and pulled back the cable jacket - below is a wire thats labeled "Audioquest Rockefeller 3 Speaker wire" So it appears that the folks at DH gate are selling entry level Rockefeller wire relabeled as top if the line K2.

A 8 foot pair of Rockefeller have a retail price of $962 as mentioned I paid $ 371 for them - about the same as I would have paid for them if I had sourced them here in the US

So there really is no free lunch - If a deal is to good to be true it usually is :-)

As Always Good Listening

Peter

Marakanetz, Perhaps AQ cares if design is stolen. I'm not sure what provider means. I don't believe AQ sells original cables with 95% discount. It is like with bootleg DVDs, I wouldn't buy it but many people do.

You want good IC's that will blow away AQ? Try Silnote.
Outstanding. I'm not affilliated at all.

Kijanki,
It was mentioned that DHGate isn't a distributor but just provider of market for multiple sellers. You never know if they're authorized to sell AQ or any kind of cables, but the bottom line is THEY ARE A LOT CHEAPER and look and sound like real. Who cares if consumer is HAPPY?

I've always like AQ cables, but was slightly worried when I bought some from a fellow audiophile in China. I took them to a friend who works a nearby high end audio store, compared them to new ones, and they passed the authenticity test. I come out of this an absolute winner in every way having saved enough money to put several otherwise impoverished students through medical school thereby helping make a better life for all the little children in the world.

Audioquest manufactures cables in China for a long time (10 years?). They moved production there, cut prices and changed names of the cables to stay competitive. Python IC, for instance, became King Cobra (half of the price).
I suspect that big portion of price is not actual cost of manufacturing but R&D. I don't know if this can explain such price difference but on the other hand DH Gate doesn't give any specifications. Are they high purity silver? what type of insulation? Is it foam Polyethylene and carbon loaded partially conductive Polyethylene for negative conductors? Even if all is perfect copy of original (including patented DBS system) I would ask if DH Gate has authorization from AQ. If not, it is pretty much like buying stolen bike - some people wouldn't do it but others pretend not to know it is stolen.

I'm starting to feel a little sorry.

Im not sorry DUDE!!

Pbnaudio, your place as manufacturer puts you in the unique position of seeing and knowing things others don't.

I'm not here to say that the AQ cables you mentioned at heavy discount from HK are authentic, but nor would I believe they're counterfeit, either.

We know of far too many examples of entities who have sited manufacture in China, only to discover the handle on production control they believed in proved wishful thinking. Time and again, folks with access to product/production figured out they can do well selling through means other than the expected outlet. Though some of this is obviously unethical, if not criminal, before casting criticism on those over there, how many of these Western entities employed the requisite business protections to safeguard themselves? I can say from personal experience, in the high-end audio business, many a company has failed to make even the most basic of moves.

Obviously, in these instances, folks can source the same product intended for sale at much higher pricing at steep discount.

Jp, Pb... I guess they're all made there especially tubing and terminating equipment that is being used by vast majority of US manufacturers. Buy one for yourself and you're good to manufacture any wire you wish to make. Fake will look and sound SAME and that's the bottom line as long as you know what they're made of weather it's legal, not legal to manufacture or purchase, fair, not fair they're competitors now and there are reasons, facts and 'COZes' I've described above.
It's just wires and our beloved US manufacturers may deeply go down on prices of their 'gimmemomani' branded products.

Interesting tread - just checked the Audioquest retail price book, a pair of K2 Speaker cables @ 8 feet long have a MSRP of US$14050 as of November 2011.

If what is ordered from Hong Kong is the real deal then $380 certainly is a bargain :-) This however is probably one of those "to good to be true deals" - Just to satisfy my own curiosity I ordered up a pair just to see how they are made - should be interesting.

Good listening

Peter

Too much "skin" effect in that response.

I use the U.S. made Clear Day speaker cables. Why would I want to go backwards by using the K2's?Plus the silver used in the Clear Day come from the Silver State!

Original Audioqeuest K2s are fine cables, I'm sure, but reading 210 reviews at:

http://www.amazon.com/AudioQuest-K2-terminated-speaker-cable/product-reviews/B000J36XR2/ref=cm_cr_dp_see_all_btm?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

I found this:

"....Anyway, overall, the product is really a fine example of craftsmanship. I've not even plugged them into a sound system yet, as I have them firmly wrapped around my testicles at the moment in an effort to keep my own sperm from impregnating my brain and taking over my mind. So far, so good - I can't speak enough about the reliability of these cables."

Just one review below I found this:

"i love beating my white slaves, or even passerby's with this product. its has a more mellow and more tonal and hence superior sound as the skin eviscerates with a goodly floqgging using these video cables whats not to like?"

I suspect some reviewers might be using them improperly.

Roxy,
1. JPS cables I used to have aren't expensive even if purchased brand new.
2. Sold them and number of higher priced interconnects long time ago to save for music and better preamp
3. Let Mr. Honorable Paul_Graham be the Ultimate Judge on who's an idiot OK.
4. Valid point of an idiot is still a valid point. FACT.

And finally my schlong-blocking post is intended for community not to get banged by ones who's much smarter and probably should be more or less appreciated COZ I do intend to advocate consumer and its rights rather than throw arguments or insults(as others might prefer).

^^^^^ whatever validity your point does or doesn't have, only idiots spell out "coz".

Fact.

Marakanetz,
After reading your rambling diatribe against expensive cables, I noticed that one of your systems is using JPS speaker cables and interconnects. Not what most would consider cheap.

i was intrigued (or bored enough) to google this dhgate, about which i was only vaguely familiar. they're not a seller, rather they're a platform, more-or-less like ebay, for thousands of independent seller. as best as i can ascertain, the platform itself is legit, and very large--they have an escrow service to assure delivery of products, etc.--but there's no controls on the source of merchandise which the sellers sell, and the consensus is that most of it is counterfeit or gray market. there's also no meaningful recourse if a buyer gets burned on a purchase. (there's a ton of "dh scam" and other web chatter that cast aspersions on the whole enterprise). it may well be, as marakanetz states, that many buyers are perfectly happy with the stuff they get from dhgate, and that the knockoff products are just as good as the real thing, though i personally wouldn't touch it.

In reality cable replicas are the simpliest thing to replicate. No matter how many figures they worth, IT'S JUST A WIRE! What could be wrong with cables even if they're fake? Won't they have the same continuity test or even per-unit resistance/impedance? Even ones original would suffer difference to some magnitude one to each-other so you simply can't distinguish where is which one unless you know the true source of purchase. Now do the math and querry all hifi brands from DHGate and match them against ones sold in here HOW YOU ARE ASSURED THAT YOU'RE NOT BUYING FAKE? CAN YOU PROVIDE YOUR METHODS OF ANALYSIS???
The cables at DHGate sold at fraction of the price vs. original and even if you will resell cables at 50% off you'll still profit substantially from each re-sale like that. All you have to do is just unpack it, make some marks and signs of usage and sell them used!

So don't be sorry, just OPEN YOUR EYES. Wheather the feedback from DHGate positive or negative those who need to have an income will find ways to get product and to find supplier that does great job, great shipping, the one that accepts credit card or paypal and will establish line of business coz cable differences found MOSTLY in the way they look to naive consumer so I suggest to excersise more with your "listening tests" LOL!.

You may have different opinions such as "An individual can have a right to purchase $10,000 speaker cable", but for the manufacturer producing one I'd say there's a way to make it the same but much cheaper let's say for $500... What I would say simply SO BE IT! It's pure physics where every current shall see the load resistance and it's quite natural alais of any laws, regulations or Divine American Dignity. Do you think that genuine cable companies are fair to you as consumers? I think totally different. THEY ARE NOT and they all think that you are DUMB enough to purchase $10,000 pair of cables coz you have late model BMW and $80,000 speakers.

So check out how many pages you find at DHGate or Alibaba listings that sell any famous brand you can think off and see these prices and stop blaming happy OP that purchased brand new $3000 cable for fraction of price, coz actually he deserves to be happy if you think deep.

You from North Jersey? Michigan usually goes a little softer.

Who knows but you are probably a good guy.

I like the thread but the theater is kind of weak.

The customer reviews of DHgate that have been posted at ResellerRatings.com may be of interest.

The bottom line as of today: 25 customer reviews posted; 20 of them gave DHgate the lowest possible rating.

Regards,
-- Al

"No one should ever have to pay $3,000.00 for a pair of cables. Agreed? "

Think this through "Ty Cobb".

Nobody HAS to pay for cables, nor does anyone HAVE to buy a stereo system for that matter.

If someone CHOOSES to spend $3,000 for ANYTHING, why should it bother you? Do you suffer from cable envy? Are you falling victim to the beguiling tug of class warfare?

If someone wants to spend large sums of money they EARNED on something, I'm cool with it. Envy is a very malignant state and best avoided.

As my grandmother said " good for you is not the same as bad for me".

Welcome to Audiogon by the way :)

Ty Cobb was supposedly not a very nice guy I seem to recall.

"Cobb's legacy as an athlete has sometimes been overshadowed by his surly temperament and aggressive playing style,[17] which was described by the Detroit Free Press as "daring to the point of dementia."[18].

Cobb himself wrote shortly before his death, "In legend I am a sadistic, slashing, swashbuckling despot who waged war in the guise of sport."[19"

Sure could hit though.

Audio "GONE", real gone.

Ok guys, just kiss and make up and say "I'm sorry"

Dude, just look at the way you talk to people! Look at the manner in which you have just responded to my post! One resounding theme stands out...you came off like a fool, and now everybody is ripping your butt for it. Truth stings a bit doesn't it? Now you want to ramble on about people being angry? or the fact that we all don't see eye to eye? That's pretty darn obvious don't you think? And by the way...you are the one who seems angry, not those who have contributed to your post. Why don't you try taking responsibility for your actions/words and stop with all the defensive, less-than-kind "assaults" upon other members. I will RE-ITERATE once again...this is a community of music lovers, gear-heads, and hobbyists, even if YOU choose not to play nice, the issue at hand really isn't about other peoples "anger"...it's about your combative attitude and your pretentious post. Try calling off your friggin' "attack dogs" and see this for what it is. And while you're at it, consult your family doctor...see if you ought to go back on your anti-psychotic meds!

>All I've done is type some words"

Agreed.

BUTT, it's how you type them and where you place them.

HEAD's up.

I for one am definitely not sorry I stumbled upon this thread :)

We all make our points our own way. When's the last time you actually took the time and effort to write that much on a thread?

You're welcome.

O yeah, if people on here are angry, bad news pal. They were angry long before I got here. All I've done is type some words. Community is a big word. Covers allot of ground. Doesn't mean we all have to see eye to eye or get along for every instant. That would be a rather short sighted point of view for such an elete bunch don't you think?

Hey Tycobb, judging from all the responses to your post so far, might it have been a better idea to approach your topic with less of a brash, know-it-all slant?? Nobody likes to be lectured to. You are certianly NOT the last word when it comes to speaker cabling, and most folks don't appreciate being talked "down" to. I notice that you have spent most of your time responding back to members with defensiveness...and sarcasm. That speaks volumes about you...and your communication skills, (or lack of). You aren't dealing with idiots, or morons here my friend. So many of our fellow audiophile A-gon members are experienced listeners who have spent decades building numerous systems, tweaking, upgrading, "enveloping" themselvs in high-end audio hobby/passion. So many in our "community" have forgotten more than you or I will ever know about this "hobby" we all hold so near and dear to our hearts. Are you not aware that countless members right here on A-gon are in fact Electrical engineers, mechanical engineers, equipment manufacturers, cable designers, Magazine writers and editors, acoustic engineers, NASA scientists, recording engineers, musicians, doctors and lawyers?? Smart people. Experienced people. Unfortunately, you come off like an amatuer, you say assinine things that make very little sense, and you've managed to do it with a self-righteous, "know-it-all" tone in your voice that seems to have ruffled alot of feathers! Any wonder why all the responses to your post have been less than supportive? You've obviously pissed people off. Try posing a QUESTION next time. Try sharing your experience without sounding like you know everything. You might find that fellow A-gon members will chime in with thoughtful, poignient responses...and not attack you the way the have. Just a thought. Afterall, aren't we all in this TOGETHER? Aren't we supposed to be a "community"?

Careful.367 these folks are real sensitive on here. Seems to come natural for people w/ more dollars than SENSE.

.367 lifetime. Beat that. I have 30K for wires, and would never be foolish enough to pay over 300.00 They just don't make that much difference. Tweek's my ass. They don't work. Tricks in the way dealers market work on some. Minimum wage or retired at 49 like me. The only thing I'm sorry about is spending 220.00 on Nordost Blue Haven Rel II's. They're no better than lamp cord. Keep spending my friends.

I'm sorry I read all the posts that said they were not sorry they read the original post, but were sorry they read all the posts saying they were sorry.

Mapman, now you're more jeopardised to get fake if you buy used. Watch out for pricey wires sold as lightly used or open box. The higher wire priced the more intention exists to manufacture fake. Buy new and cheap wires from Best Buy or pro audio stores. Most of them not any worse than ones for thousands bucks. That will drive most of the high-end wire market way down.

Tycobb,
Yesterday, you said you were "gone". So when are you going?

I do not pay a lot for wires (compared to some at least) so I am not sorry I read this.

FWIW, my recollection from selling audio gear many years ago and having seen a lot of vendor cost versus sell price data is that accessories like wires and other similar relatively simple tweaks was by far where a lot of profit is made, markups of 100's of % or more, compared to very marginal profit for core electronic/component devices.

I doubt much about that has changed over the years.

Moral off the story: Buy wires used whenever possible! The used prices more reflect actual objective value and wires being relatively simple devices tend to hold up pretty well over time.