Do no harm to a signal! Does this mean.....

@russ69 -- My point exactly....

"...BTW it’s cable not wire... Words Count..."

That would depend on the construction of the "cable". A pair of un-wound wires or ribbons would not be cables.

Voodooville

telephone wire will work fine. Make sure wire is exposed to absorb oxgen, benefits electron flow.  Lubricate with vaseline.  

"...BTW it’s cable not wire... Words Count..."

That would depend on the construction of the "cable".  A pair of un-wound wires or ribbons would not be cables. 

paying $2k for cables is nutty as can be.

How come? Experience or something else?
What about 1k or less, would that be alright?

Virtually every claim made by a cable manufacturer about what their cable does is easily proven with current measurement technology. Ask yourself why they never do.

Because they sell audio products and not testing machinery. But you would not believe them anyway. Easily proven?

Sure ... convenient. Never been able to validate by anyone. The only thing being seasoned and settling is your brain.

No validated as many other things in audio and life. But as a person who claims to accept science you skip physics, and stand behind theory only.

Settling in"? What a lot of BS

The echo.

Utterly amazing.

Yes indeed, they are bored.

We do not have infinite ability to hear changes

You accept then that some people have listening limitations.
hilde45, i like spaghetti too and parmesan.

Some of above comments caught my attention, sorry if you feel offended, i am not twisting anything,  but applied negativeness does not help.
This is an audio forum and listening experiences, most empirical, matter the most.

The thread is young... :-) If it dives into totally stupid Master M. and MC will chime in.. there is only so much time, might as well spend it wisely..

Anyways, MC is trying out some new cable products, not SR.  Happy as a clam from what I hear..

BTW it’s cable not wire... Words Count..

Regards..

Wow!  This has to be an Audiogon first.  If anyone knows of another instance, please let me know ASAP. 

Can you believe, there has actually been a "discussion thread devolved into a name calling argument" over the pros and cons and perceived auditory merits of spending up to $20,000 for a 6-foot piece of wire, WITHOUT Chuck Miller chiming in with his "$2,000 worth opinion" (Chuck has NEVER only given 2-Cents worth) AND WITHOUT seeing Ted Denney or Synergistic Research mentioned.

Utterly amazing.

I did validate it with the most important person that listens to MY system.. ME.

You don’t even come into play other than being annoying and spewing misinformation..

I don’t mind correcting you but you are becoming a bit boring..

BTW, no golden ears here, just well taken care of ears that have stood the test of time and repaired millions and millions of dollars of equipment. CORRECTLY!!!

I’ve had issues with hypersensitivity (bone malformation in my ears) as a younger mechanic, but no more tinnitus sense my heart was fixed. That was VERY short lived. I’m still good close to 16K as of 10 months ago..

Exit physical from a Hazmat tracking system I’m in.. 47 years of tracking.
Your tax dollars at work...Suckers...:-)

Going out to check on the chickens... They can learn...

The response to this post could be GOLDEN..

dletch2334 posts04-29-2021 6:06pmNo, OHM is 100% wrong. The only thing that changes is your brain.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I'll offer this to you, my door is always open when you want to learn, until then welcome to the Eeyore 6. I have zero time for PURE chosen ignorance.  If you really can't tell the difference between cables, guess what YOU can't. It has absolutely nothing to do with ME. 

I agree 100% that there are those that will not learn. not everyone is a composer for sure. What university taught you applies in theory, not in practice though.. Sorry fella thing change... A LOT....

Really need to keep up OR Ship out, really.. No one hear want's hear what you can't seem to learn.. NO ONE....

You sound a LOT like audio2design. Not quite as arrogant, but I  could alter my online persona enough to pass as someone else too, FOR SURE...

Are all you CLOWNS cut from the same cloth?? You know being dumber than a box of rocks... DUMMIES.. Thanks for the quote Red Fox.. a master of the silver tongue club.. and wonderful mechanic of sorts.. RIP.

The rest of the flat earthers, just shut up... One mouth TWO ears.. use them accordingly...  You ARE NOT gonna teach folks that have gone WAY past, YOU CAN'T... YOU MAY LEAVE however. Quickly if you please...

Name a "bad" wire!

Monster, from what I've seen.  

"Settling in"? What a lot of BS!

dletch2,
I believe in your experience, that is 100% true. 

sorry fits lol

The cable that best its your system is the one to buy and usually the better cables do less harm to the sound but when you find the right match to your system the magic will happen.

IME oldhvymec is 100% correct. It would be more convenient if this were not the case however.  

Cable manufacturing is wierd science, and not unlike this thread.

paying $2k for cables is nutty as can be.  

If you replace the word enter connect with the word wine that’s what I would think they were talking about. It’s getting a little weird.

First of all it is NOT plug and play. You plug, in let it settle for a day or so and then listen. You can't swap a cable set and expect to hear what they are going to sound like for a while. How long is a while? If the cable are seasoned, 24 hours. If they are new,, forget about it. 50-500 hours..

Will the cables sound the same if you put your old ones back in? Sure they will if you just unplugged and laid them back.. 2 hours they will quit sounding "OFF".  If you coiled them, didn't cover the ends, 24 hours.

Swapping cable after cable in a listening session just doesn't work. Will you hear a difference? YES! Will it be how the cable sounds once it settles in?  NO!

Regards

Realistically if you can’t tell the difference and you lose The test you’re an idiot for spending the money on something that doesn’t make any difference. Correct? Are these test that you’re talking about this simple?

Almost.  @russ69 is right, you're not going to pick up the difference between speaker cables by listening to headphones.  You need them connected to loudspeakers that you can then audition.  

But no audio store would ever do such a test, because too many people walking in there wouldn't know good SQ if it walked up and clanked them on the head with a sledgehammer.  Evidence:  Popularity of Bose Acoustimass systems. 

"...Have a set of headphones hooked up..."

It’s the interaction of cables to the amplifiers (amps in source, preamp, loudspeakers, and amp) that make a difference, headphones won’t do it, except to test headphone cables.

Is there anything wrong with a test that might exist like this in your local audio store? Have a set of headphones hooked up to a little device that has two places to hook up the cables. The sales person at the store hooks a five dollar cable and one at the expensive cable that you’re thinking of buying and the other one. So you have a 50-50 chance of guessing which is the cable that you want to buy. Realistically if you can’t tell the difference and you lose The test you’re an idiot for spending the money on something that doesn’t make any difference. Correct? Are these test that you’re talking about this simple?

Inductance is a factor of surface area and distance. Wide spaced heavy gauge conductors can be highly inductive. Similarly, small gauge spaced will be low capacitance.

Agree. Didn’t want to overload him with information, though. Was just trying to illustrate the fact that different speaker cables will do different things to the signal based on myriad factors.

For example, capacitance really doesn’t mean a damn thing if your cable run is less than 2m. Raw resistance and inductance are far more important at that point. Conversely, if the run is 50 feet, capacitance becomes a HUGE issue.

Many variables, but the concept of diminishing returns means at some point there are 0 returns. We do not have infinite ability to hear changes. So most of those things "can" make a difference, but most of them unless the design is poor, do not.

Also 100% agree.  Diminishing returns is why one must carefully balance their approach to system improvement between all the various factors.  If you're spending thousands on interconnects and haven't dropped a nickel into room treatments, you're being dumb, because you're leaving low-hanging fruit on the tree in terms of the overall quality of your sonic experience. 

Drugs?  Cure?  
Personally I'd feel a lot better without all the idiotic meds commercials.

"...Isnt this the reason for paying up for cables cause,its so hard to limit signal damage?..."

Audio cables are deliberately designed to change the sound we hear. Common measurements are conductivity, capacitance, impedance, and resistance. Audio cable's job is not to be the perfect conductor, it's job is to improve sonics in a particular way. So some parameters are changed to accomplish this.  

Does anyone understand what happens to an analogue signal when it flows thru a speaker cable??

Sure.  The resistance, capacitance, and inductance of the speaker cable all have effects on the signal.  

How dramatic those effects are depend on the type of wire (copper v aluminum v silver etc...) the thickness of the wire, the length of the run, the proximity of the two conductors to one another, the quality of the insulation... 

Tons of factors.  Each one changes one value over another.  Some matter more than others.  *There is no perfect solution* is the most important thing to remember.  Just solutions that prioritize one value over another. 

Heavy gauge wire decreases resistance and inductance, but increases capacitance. Light gauge decreases capacitance, but increases inductance and resistance.  

But there's more:

Speaker wire crossing another electrical cable (power, interconnect, etc) has a deleterious effect on the audio signal.  Because now the two electrical signals are interacting with one another's magnetic fields. 

There are so many variables, essentially there's no such thing as the "perfect" cable.  It's all give and take regarding your signal. 

Does anyone understand what happens to an analogue signal when it flows thru a speaker cable??

and challenges in transmitting a delicate analogue signal???

substance please

Yes really.

You want an IC to roll off the highs, you increase capacitance by putting the conductors closer together. You want speaker cables to roll off the highs, you increase inductance by spacing out the conductors. There is no magic.  However, doing either is highly system dependent, and almost always if you take your eyes out of the equation, not audible.


Some like Transparent add some cheap passive components to the cable. Some claim that adding a bias reduces noise (though the opposite happens). Some make claims about ground blocks, but can't seem to prove it.

Really. 

For example, if an inferior system is too bright, a cable can affect the tonality and, sometimes, improve it

Which justifies spending $2/foot not 0.50 for bulk wire.

Your premise isn't wrong, it's incomplete.

For example, if an inferior system is too bright, a cable can affect the tonality and, sometimes, improve it. That's not the ideal way to get good sound, but that's a way in which the cable adds something that improves the signal. It's like a mediocre spaghetti sauce; adding parmesan can't save it, but it makes it better, overall.

clearthink1,216 posts04-29-2021 10:59am
dletch2""Trust your ears" never means "Trust your ears". It usually means, use your ears, but trust your eyes. Almost as a rule, anyone who makes the statement, "Trust your ears", never trusts their own ears. That is why they never blind test."

Of course this is dishonest, deceptive and untrue there are audiophiles who blind test this is just an insult, an attack, an arrogant posturing to establish dismiss, degrade, and demean the audiophile community. Blind test blind test blind test blind test blind test blind test blind test blind test blind test blind test blind test blind test blind test blind test blind test blind test it is the fundamental basis, premise, and foundation of the "measurentalists" religion, faith, and fervently held belief they believe if you do not blind test you are deluded, insane, and dishonest what a load of what Americans call "hooey."

Don’t just listen no no no no blind test blind test blind test blind test blind test blind test blind test blind test blind test blind test

Obviously no comment is needed. Let’s just leave this here for posterity.  This comment proves my point better than I ever could have on my own.

So what happens to a ‘good’ signal as it flows thru a cable?

lesser cables do it different from a better cable.  You cant improve signal, so you want to limit harm.  So why is premise of my orig post wrong???

I think the advice is "Do no harm to a good signal." Garbage in, garbage out?

Got a pig? Get some lipstick. (And a bottle of bourbon. Good times.)

I wasn't trying to cure you. 

djones51Clearthink, perhaps a moment of deep breathing and contemplation might be advantageous. Or valium

Typical American response "Whatever I think is wrong with you can be cured by you taking a drug." I feel very sorry for you and your need, belief, and faith in drugs as a solution, remedy, and answer to what is wrong.

Clearthink, perhaps a moment of deep breathing and contemplation might be advantageous. Or valium.

dletch2""Trust your ears" never means "Trust your ears". It usually means, use your ears, but trust your eyes. Almost as a rule, anyone who makes the statement, "Trust your ears", never trusts their own ears. That is why they never blind test."

Of course this is dishonest, deceptive and untrue there are audiophiles who blind test this is just an insult, an attack, an arrogant posturing to establish dismiss, degrade, and demean the audiophile community. Blind test blind test blind test blind test blind test blind test blind test blind test blind test blind test blind test blind test blind test blind test blind test blind test it is the fundamental basis, premise, and foundation of the "measurentalists" religion, faith, and fervently held belief they believe if you do not blind test you are deluded, insane, and dishonest what a load of what Americans call "hooey."

Don't just listen no no no no  blind test blind test blind test blind test blind test blind test blind test blind test blind test blind test

No.


Ask anyone who is making that claim, to quantify the claim. It is best to step back to avoid the flailing hand waving at this point. "Trust your ears" never means "Trust your ears". It usually means, use your ears, but trust your eyes.  Almost as a rule, anyone who makes the statement, "Trust your ears", never trusts their own ears. That is why they never blind test. 


Virtually every claim made by a cable manufacturer about what their cable does is easily proven with current measurement technology. Ask yourself why they never do.

Isnt this the reason for paying up for cables cause,its so hard to limit signal damage?

No That’s why it makes no sense! False premise.

So why post false premises? What does it add? You posted a good question about how much to spend on cables and then post this supposed "GOTCHA" as if this false premise  is the overall belief of everyone who has upgraded cables. 

No.