Do different streamers really sound different when using an external DAC

@alvinnir2 Great to hear that those powerline adapters worked out for you.

Steve Gadd's drumming on Aja title track is one of my all time favs. Thanks for the recommendation. Cheers,

Spencer

@sbank I found the same when I went from my Macbook to the Node 2i.

Well, I did get and installed today  the powerlink devices you suggested so I could hook up the Node 2i via ethernet and I'm glad I did. I does sound better, mostly with respect to greater dynamics.

In fact I played the first cut from the Chick Corea/Steve Gadd release " Chinese Butterfly" which I highly recommend if you like contemporary jazz.  "Chick's Chums" has some great drumming on it and when the drum intro kicks in  I nearly jumped out of my seat. Good Times!

@alvinnir2 Even an upgrade from Macmini to a modest Sonore microRendu w/LPS made a significant improvement in my pretty resolving system(Soundlabs, Krell amp, BAT preamp). Cheers,

Spencer

Thanks  everyone, very useful. Looks like many worthwhile experiences in upgrading the streamer and no doubt there is a significant difference when going from a Node to a $8000 Aurender as pdewher did. Of course the million dollar question is  how much does one need to spend to make a cost effective upgrade if $8000 is more than one wants to spend?  Any suggestions? Would an Aurender N100 be enough to justify the expenditure or must one go up the food chain further?

There is a difference between DACs but that difference can only be perceived through high-end sources and speakers

Alvin, I have a Bryston BDP Pi that I bought to replace my aging MacMini. The improvement was obvious, the MacMini sounded sluggish by comparison. I also connected the Pi to a linear power supply. I’m running the Pi to an Ayre QB9 Twenty DAC via usb cable. Send me a personal email if you wish and I can add further to the upgrade.

I used Bluesound products (Vault 2 and the latest Node) for several years combined.  In my experience streaming via Bluesound sounds best when wired (vs. wireless), which in my case was with a wireless extender.  Adding a DAC is also a BIG plus... and upgrading the power cord helped some as well.

However, I just made the jump to an Aurender N10 server/steamer... and the improvement in sound quality in upgrading my streamer/server was significant.  Granted I went from a Bluesound that retails for $600 to an Aurender that goes for $8,000... so not an apples to apples comparison.  But for those that claim all "bits are bits" and all servers sound about the same, I don't find that to be true.

 

Bluesound is great with a wired either net connection,  good external DAC and decent cables. I could not say one is better than the other compared to the U1.

Sounds maybe a bit different but not better. 

Just about ready to order one of these powerline adapters on Amazon to try hooking up via ethernet. In the description it states that both the "send" and "receive" units need to be on the same circuit. Since my modem is upstairs which is a different circuit (on my circuit breaker), than my audio system, which is one floor below, will this no longer work?

@blkwrxwgn I can’t explain it, and would say with Amazon, it can’t hurt to try and see. The same same concern crossed my mind. Maybe airborne  RFI, EMI, etc are more detrimental than the noise they the copper electrical? A few on audiophilestyle reported good results, so I tried it until running ethernet was an option for me. If someone explains why it wouldn’t make sense, that’s fine. Cheers,

Spencer

@sbank That's a cool gadget for sure but how could that sound better than wifi?  Only asking because I use a mesh setup too and hardwire from the base of one of the mesh units but I cant see how using something where the signal is going thru actual electrical current could be cleaner than a wireless wifi signal.  

If so then I'm all in on one of those units but I just can't see how that could be a cleaner signal, wouldn't there be noise introduced that way even more so?

Unfortunately, all the variables mentioned do have an impact. IMHE, an improved streamer will make a bigger difference than just adding ethernet vs. wifi. One important part of that change is that most users of betters streamers will be more likely to use a high quality linear power supply on the streamer. Don't underestimate the value of the LPS!  

If wiring ethernet through your house isn't an option, powerline adapters that use the copper already routing electrical are a good interim option. Here's an example of the current model of one I used successfully. https://www.amazon.com/TP-Link-AV600-Powerline-Ethernet-Adapter/dp/B00AWRUICG?th=1

Mesh is simply a better WIFI methodology. It still sends wifi through the air and noise degradation is still an issue. I have Eero mesh wifi and it sounds nowhere near as good as wired ethernet (between router, Synology NAS and Sonicorbiter in one room and audio rig including ethernet to opticalRendu in the other room). 

I would sum up this thread in order of priority as:

1. upgrade the streamer including LPS. Lean towards something compatible with Roon, Squeezebox or OpenHome DLNA/UPnP apps to limit reliance on a small development team.
2. use ethernet if possible, powerline adapter otherwise, any wifi as last option.

While the Teac mentioned may be a great choice, I'd think of it similar to integrated amps vs. separate amp/pre. IMHO, I'd prefer separates in anticipation of future DAC upgrades, based on the frequent progress in DACs. YMMV. Cheers,

Spencer

It certainly is, vanson1.

 

I am using the BS 2i with a MQA DAC. 

Sounds fantastic and don't plan to upgrade the streamer for now. 

Spend time reading music reviews and exploring new (to me at least) albums and artists. 

I find the quality of the recording makes a huge difference.  Greater than any one piece of equipment. 

Is not enjoying the music the reason we spent so much time and money  on our great systems 

adg101.                                                                              I do have the fs model. I have looked into the Teddy Pardo.  After having spent the money for the upgraded pc on the BS I didn't see any improvement. If you say there is an improvement using the TP power I would need to try myself. Don't know what the return policy is. In my own mind I don't think there is that much difference when using small PC. Also I read from RME that they supply the unit with the best PC and any other would not add any extra benefits. Again results are always different in your own system, mine included. Thanks for reminding me about the TP.      

If I was using USB to the dac, then the pc/Mac/streamer could make a difference because some vendors try to make USB sound better. Since I don't use USB, then no. All a streamer server is is a proprietary computer, most of the time running linux, and a proprietary version of linux at that. Most streamers have more processing power than what's needed but probably makes it easier for some to charge the higher prices. Its pretty hard to justify a $13k streamer with hardware that's over the top to a 8 year old Mac mini that runs Roon with 6 end points that takes 15% of the mini's resources, again, not using USB

Wouldn’t call the RME analytical at all unless ones system is bright to begin with. The RME is very revealing but it’s not bright or analytical. My guess is those that claim so haven’t really heard one or if they have not set up well, or were using Toslink and maybe standard Spotify or Tidal. 
I’m running my RME currently direct to a Pass X250 into Aerial Acoustics 7Bs which is far from an overly soft setup. I also own a ModWright LS36.5 preamp which is a fine preamp and the RME direct loses a little of the warmth the MW adds but makes up for it with its crystal clean refined top end and lower noise floor with extended bass slam.

Owned tube amps over the years which I enjoyed but I’ll take transparency over things being rolled off. I do currently own a tube phono preamp as well. I’m sure the Tubadour is a fine product that I have not heard, but I would not write off the RME, especially with a better power supply.

Interesting that you bring up the Tubadour, it is one of the DACs I was considering to hook up to the Node 2i before I bought the Musical Paradise DAC. Being in Canada it would be an issue with customs and such to buy and return it if I didn't like it. The MP DAC fell in my lap and though it's not R2R is all tube, non oversampling, including tube rectification, built like a tank with user upgradable coupling caps. Very well reviewed on the boards and was a no brainer for me as the designer/company owner lives in my province.

That being said, a good buddy of mine who lives in the US is a retired classical musician with an outstanding audio system and a very critical ear. And he is a hardcore vinyl guy,
I turned him onto the Tubadour and he has had it for about 2 weeks and loves it. And I would expect it would even better if you rolled out the tubes Vlad puts in them.

Something like a Reflector 74/75 SWGP from the USSR would sing in it. My DAC runs 6dj8 or equivalents (same as the Tubadour) and these particular Russian Tubes walk all over the Amperex Bugle Boys I was using. I think you will love the Tubadour over the RME if you want more music and less of an analytical sound. 

@knighttodd 

Be curious to hear how the  Audio Mirror Troubadour compares to the RME. Is your RME the latest fs version or previous DAC? If you end up keeping the RME, you’ll be surprised how much better it sounds with a Teddy Pardo power supply. Really takes it to another level in all areas, especially a more open stage. The finer details gets even better with a much lower noise floor. Teddy Pardo delivered will set you back $400.

I am using a Netgear power line 1200 for my node 2i. No long wire no wifi no drop outs. By passing the dac with AQ Carbon coax into an RME ADI2 set on the nos  filter. The sound is fantastic. So good I just ordered an Audio Mirror Troubadour to add the tubes with the nos sound. Hope I like it. Going to feed that to an AR LS28se. Get a 14 day demo period on the dac. 

@ianrmack
I have also looked a threads where someone is compared the bluesound to the Lumin and could not reliably tell the difference. Hard to justify the expenditure. I perhaps see where you got the idea for the WLAN device. It's recommended with the purchase of the Lumin on the Upscale Audio webpage. Then again, from my understanding, the Lumin does not have a built in wifi signal receiver so you pretty much have to use a device like this if your Lumin is not right by your modem. All this stuff can make your head spin. Time to go listen to some vinyl!

 

Alvin, I have not yet done this. Yet I am curious as I read reviews where the person only marginally prefers Lumin over BS and I’ve always wondered if it’s just the case where Ethernet is slightly better than wifi.

I may just follow my own advice...
then there’s the choice of 1m Ethernet cables....

@mattshere PSU upgrade and also iFi SPDIF iPurifier 2 all powered with good linear power supplies. Add the Gutwire Ultimate Grounding cable on the RCA port and then it's maxed out. You'll be surprised how much more you get out of the Bluesound.
-Alex

@ianrmack 

So I think I understand now. The WLAN device replaces the wifi receiver part of the node 2i so I can then just use an ethernet cable to connect it to the Node2i. Was this improvement you had with this device worthwhile enough with the Node 2i such that you are no longer lusting after the Lumin?

i would think a mesh router system would work better, but i am not at all expert at these wifi gadgets

some time back i had bought a classic plug in extender and it doesn't work that great... sets up its own wifi address and it tends to cut in and out as phone and tablet tries to connect to it at that end of the house

did not use it for my hifi... just general use as wifi extender

Just buy one and try: $50 to $75.00

@ianrmack 
Unsure why the device you recommended would be an improvement over my current wifi set up on the node 2i. It seems as if this is  a wifi extender that I would then hook up via ethernet cable to the mode 2i. Would a unit like this somehow implement the wifi signal better than what the node 2i does? Appreciate your explanation. did using this device sound better with the node 2i compared to the node 2i accessing the wifi directly?

@ Alvin

No! Not at all about drop outs, but more about some sort of noise with wifi that can corrpt signal compared to ethernet direct.

and NO AGAIN on your need to get bad wires. just get one of there:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004UBU8IE/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_ep_dp_Vyj.BbW8RPG2N

I've been using the Node2 for about 3 years now through various developments in my system which now consists of;

Ethernet>EtherRegen>Node2>Custom SPDIF Coax>Schiit GungnirMB>Audioquest Mackenzie XLR>Luxman 507uxII>Klipsch Forte3.

I have upgraded cables throughout - mostly Wireworld mid tier.  I can say that each upgrade has made the Node2 sound better and the most recent addition of the EtherRegen has been the most significant.  Lower noise floor and more musical - just better all around.  That said, aside from changing the PSU and adding an external linear supply I've squeezed everything I can out of the Node2 for digital streaming.  I don't use any power conditioners so maybe that could reduce some noise and be the last drop if juice but i'm not ready to spend big money on power conditioners yet.

I recently visited a local hifi shop to listen the U1 mini which they had setup with the Chord Dave doing the DAC duties.  They also hooked up the Node2i with the Chord Dave for direct comparison.  It did not take long to hear the difference between the U1 Mini and Node2i streaming to the same same system.  Deeper bass, wider soundstage and just a cleaner, clearer sound overall.  A definite upgrade.  I also had the opportunity to listen to the U1, T2 and X1 which were in different systems/rooms so it was very hard to know how much of an upgrade over the U1 mini but they all sounded fantastic.

It's clear to me that streamers have a considerable impact on the sound of the digital stream.  In addition the reduction of jitter/noise by the addition of EtherRegen is real.  

I think i'll start saving my pennies for U1.  It's a big nut but I think it will be worth it.  I think it could be the most significant upgrade next to speaker and power.  You gotta start with the best source possible right?

One problem, I love my Node2.  This thing works.  No fuss, Tidal connect, custom radio streams, no dropouts - it has been rock solid.  And, it sounds good!!  Like really good.  If someone came to my house and we put on some tunes they would never know the difference.  The problem is, once you hear what is possible it's hard to go back.  I'll always have that comparison in the back of my mind.  But that's a $500 plastic box vs $7K dedicated streamer!!

This hobby sucks....




 

I bought an auralic Aries g2 last year, fully planning to return it when I proved to myself that it would not improve on my Sonos connect to my metrum pavane. Much to my surprise it was a very nicely improved sound, with noticeable improvements in detail and still very musical. Both were wired to the Ethernet in my home. I also was using a w4s reclocker with the connect, which did help it, but was not needed with the auralic. So of course I kept the auralic. I later took auralic’s advice and compared the wireless connection to the Ethernet connection and yes as they recommend, it is slightly better again connected wirelessly, counterintuitive as the is.
I suggest you do as I did and just buy a similar product and return it if you don’t hear an improvement.

I wonder if the hard wiring benefit is for homes with a poor wifi ? My home has very good wifi and I never get dropouts.

It would be great to get some input from Node 2i users who have directly compared wifi to ethernet hard wire without any other changes to cloud the comparison.

For me to easily implement wired ethernet would require a long and unsightly ethernet cable run and from what I read ethernet cables can create their own problems. Additionally, some streamer manufacturers claim that wifi sounds better than ethernet because of their proper implementation of the wifi section of their streamers.

In the meantime, I have put a few Hi Rez files on a USB flash drive that I will hook up to the USB input of the node 2i and compare it to the same files via WiFi. If it is an improvement over the wifi I may be shopping for an external SSD drive; they are quite reasonable in price these days.

I think hard-wiring any streaming device you can is a good idea.

I have a Node 2i going to a Chord Qutest with a Teddy Pardo LPS.
have been pondering an “upgrade” to the streamer/“transport”.

I have read much of a comparison between Lumin U1 Mini and Node 2i. In the end, from at least what I have read here and elsewhere, the difference and increase in SQ may come from the Lumin connected via Ethernet and not WiFi.

so, I wonder if connecting Node via Ethernet will do the trick.
I already bought an audioquest PC for it but can’t say that I really heard a difference. It was just a $75 purchase anyway.

what I have NOT heard of is any review or opinion that shows A to B, apples to apples, that a n alternative to the node is actually better . Assuming DAC is the same. 

Another vote for the Teac NT-505 dac/streamer...

i agree w the point that streamers' sound quality needs to be balanced against the quality and flexibility of the user interface it affords - it is a huge part of the quality of the user experience!

early on i tried a volumio primo... a very well reputed streamer, but i just could not enjoy the interface and how it interacted with services like tidal... how to save or bookmark music etc etc

i have also tried some of the generic dnla interfaces like bubble-upnp... it’s ok but not all that great to me

part of the reason why i gravitate back to the bluesound... somehow blu os is more agreeable to me, more polished and also more flexible and easy to use

that been said, many i know just love roon and find the additional monthly cost very much worth it - i have been resisting trying it for fear of liking it... 😆

@sbank ,
Great point!
I ended up with Innuous-mostly because I can run two systems simultaneously- something most streamers don't offer.
But, being able to use either Squeezebox or Roon is a plus.
Though I hate paying for software, I think I am going with Roon as it has a nice interface. Squeezebox seems a little rough around the edges, but what do you expect for a $5 software program?
Bob

@alvinnir2, one thing to keep in mind when researching various streamers is that many (maybe most) aren't tied to one control app like the Blu and Aurelic, which both are known for pretty nice apps. Look for references to DLNA, UPnP and/or Open Home renderers in streamers. This will tell you that they're compatible with any control app of that type. For example, I used the Lumin app mostly. Linn Kazoo, 8player, Audionet and others can be used with many, many streamers. 

This more open nature was a deciding factor for me years ago when I chose my Sonore over an Aurelic. I didn't want to get tied in with software dependent on a relatively small company that's mainly a hardware manufacturer. Now that Aurelic's newer models are Roon Ready I'd be far less concerned, since Roon has >100K subscribers and agreements with a huge number of hardware manufacturers. With Roon doing the software, I enjoy a better experience and have a much higher level of confidence that my gear will soon be obsolete in that regard.

Cheers,
Spencer

@sbank 

Thanks for that Spencer. Interesting to read about the Sonore. Unfortunately not a solution for me as my new DAC does not have a USB input and I really LOVE this DAC. The first thing I will do is switch to an ethernet connection, easy to implement. Then moving up the streamer food chain would be a good move I suspect, something like an Auralic streamer perhaps. Certainly open to suggestions in that area, but want to avoid products that have a buggy or unfriendly control app. The control app is one of the nice things about the Node 2i.

Anyone have experience with using the USB input as a sole method of accessing music files on the Node 2i, as opposed to NAS. In the past not really a viable option with traditional hard drives but with the price of SSDs now might be worth considering.

@alvinnir2, 
"There is no question that a better external DAC improves on the internal DAC of the Node 2i.  

Seems like the streamer also is key but perhaps not as significant.YMMV!"

I think you hit the nail on the head there. But IME, you don't need to spend a ton to get a better sounding streamer than the Node 2i. Have you read about the Sonore microRendu? It's very flexible and reliable, with regular firmware upgrades. One key aspect of the SQ with a streamer is the power supply. microRendu can be used with an inexpensive iFi that's great on a tight budget or something better when cost allows such as Uptone, Sbooster, Paul Hynes or Sonore's own. The 2part review by Chris Connaker does a great job explaining the pros & cons in detail. 
I've compared it alongside a number of listeners against many streamers that cost thousands and the microRendu always held its own or better. One caution, this all assumes you are streaming from a service or have your own library on a NAS. There's no internal storage, which while debatable for some, IMHO is an advantage, especially if you have a large library and are on a budget. Cheers,
Spencer

I never even put my Node 2i on WiFi. Ethernet only. I agree, much better.

FWIW, I found that there was a substantial difference in sound quality with a Pro-ject Stream Box S2 Ultra streamer when turning off the Wi-Fi and HDMI outputs and using an Ethernet cable. Not sure if you can turn off Wi-Fi on the Node 2i.

Thanks everyone. I think there are all valid points made.

There is no question that a better external DAC improves on the internal DAC of the Node 2i.  

Seems like the streamer also is key but perhaps not as significant.YMMV!

I suspect it might be a significant point of diminishing returns where one would have to spend a lot more $$$ on a stand alone streamer to have a significant improvement in sound. So many of the top streamers seem to have DACs in them rather than being stand alone so you often need to get the baby with the bathwater so to speak.

@jjss49
Silly me!
Yes, total reading comprehension fail on my part. I only got it exactly backwards. LOL
"Never mind." - Emily Latella
Happy listening.

@musicfan2349

In answer to your question "Do different streamers really sound different when using an external DAC?", in my meager experience the answer is ’yes’.
I went from using the Node2i internal DAC to an external Jolida DAC and now a Border Patrol SE-i DAC. With each change in the DAC stage I noted improvements in soundstage and detail.

think you may have misunderstood the op’s question...

but my experience is the same as yours...

same decent streamer like node 2i -----> various outboard dacs results in vastly improved sound quality

changing different streamers -----> same outboard dac sounds basically the same

In answer to your question "Do different streamers really sound different when using an external DAC?", in my meager experience the answer is 'yes'.
I went from using the Node2i internal DAC to an external Jolida DAC and now a Border Patrol SE-i DAC. With each change in the DAC stage I noted improvements in soundstage and detail.

Make of that what you will. :)Happy listening.

I have the Node 2i & a Mytek Brooklyn DAC+. The Node 2i does not need a USB connection to output the MQA file/stream to the Mytek DAC.

When properly configured as per the manual, you will see the MQA symbol and the blue or green dot next to it on the Mytek display showing it is receiving the MQA.
In your BluOS settings, set "MQA external DAC" to on. I have replay gain disbled, and output level fixed is forced on as long as the external DAC is set.

The node has a pretty good sounding dac, however being that I can’t leave well enough alone, I’ve purchased the mytek liberty which should do the full unfold via toslink or spdif. And yes I’ve replaced the nodes power cord and I have a hardwired Ethernet connection using a fiber optic “ bridge”.

By the time you've done all this, you've spent more money than you would on a really good streamer/DAC like the TEAC NT-505 and still don't come close to the sound quality of the TEAC. 

Sell the Bluesound, put the $300 or so you get for it towards the NT-505 which is being blown out for $1200 by TEAC right now and for $900 you have a really nice sounding streamer / DAC that will do MQA, DSD, and pretty much anything you want it to, other than it doesn't support as many music services as the Bluesound.  The Bluesound interface is really its best feature and hard to beat.

I hate to sound like a fanboy for the TEAC, but after having already gone down this path myself I'd like to help others keep from throwing good money after bad. 

The Mytek Liberty is a very "digital" sounding DAC, very analytical.  Adding it will sound a little better than the Bluesound on its own, and the little light will come on for MQA, but unless you prefer etched analytical sound over warm yet detailed "analog" like sound, you'll be replacing it before long.  Of all the DACs I've owned, the Liberty was my second least favorite.

Anything you do to try to make the Bluesound sound better is a band aid.  It's not a bad sounding unit, not by any means.  But if you're chasing sound quality, there are much better sounding sources available.  All the fancy power cords, cables, and external DACs you slap on it are only going to take it so far.  And that won't be as far as replacing the whole shebang with a better streamer/DAC.  

To the OP:

Yes - the streamer function makes a significant difference. I started with a Node 2 going into an outboard DAC. I personally experienced a greater improvement by going to a better streamer than I did going to a better DAC.  Others feel otherwise so YMMV.

I have multiple data points to support my own experience including auditioning multiple units in my system.  One particularly notable experience:  Before I settled into my current setup, I auditioned a Simaudio 390 D - a unit that includes preamp, DAC and their MiND streamer function. I placed the unit in system to drive my amp and connected the unit via Ethernet (not WiFi).  It sounded quite nice  - it’s a good unit overall. 

Then I placed my current streamer back into the system (connected via Ethernet again) and used it to feed the 390 D via USB.  No other changes.  It was not even close.  While I liked the preamp, DAC and control app for the 390 D, I passed.  I was looking to upgrade my DAC and was thinking I could sell my streamer and have a better and simplified system.  

I kept my streamer because it turned out to be the most significant component in my chain. 

Some would say this was an unfair comparison as my streamer is 75% of the cost of the 390 which has a preamp and DAC too.  Yes, it was unfair.  But, I was also thinking at the time - how could it make that much difference?  My bias going in was the DAC is the key. 

Audition a better unit in your system.  I suggest specifically listening for spatial information. Perhaps you’ll find an improvement. Perhaps not.  There’s really only one way to find out.

Best,

I’ve been pondering this question for weeks, and the bluesound node 2i’s manual does not clarify. I’m told that the node only does the full unfold via a usb connection. The only problem though, is the node only has a usb input. So this has left me to believe the only way to get the full unfold is by using its dac via rca cables. The node has a pretty good sounding dac, however being that I can’t leave well enough alone, I’ve purchased the mytek liberty which should do the full unfold via toslink or spdif. And yes I’ve replaced the nodes power cord and I have a hardwired Ethernet connection using a fiber optic “ bridge”. I was supposed to receive the mytek today, but with the weather it won’t be till Monday. I’ll report back my findings at that time.

When I switched from the Bluesound Vault2i and Node2i streamers to the SOtM SMS-200 Ultra Neo streamer, there was a definite, noticeable, without a doubt difference.  My DAC stayed exactly the same, no charge.  The SMS-200 was much more confusing and harder to configure and I missed the Bluesound app that I had been used to, but it sounded better with more detail and resolution that was very noticeable.