Yes they do. I’m not here to advocate for any particular brand but I’ve heard a lot and they do matter. High Fidelity reveal cables, Kubala Sosna Elation and Clarity Cable Natural. I’m having a listening session where all of them is doing a great job. I’ve had cables that were cheaper in my system but a nicely priced cable that matches your system is a must. I’m not here to argue what I’m not hearing because I have a pretty good ear. I’m enjoying these three brands today and each is presenting the music differently but very nicely. Those who say cables don’t matter. Get your ears checked. I have a system that’s worth about 30 to 35k retail. Now all of these brands are above 1k and up but they really are performing! What are your thoughts.
Our ears and brain have very short term audio memory.
There’s a shred of truth to this, but it’s hardly an absolute truth. For example, I’ve haven’t listened to a Bob Dylan album in weeks. But I could easily distinguish his voice from Bruce Springsteen’s anytime.
So, unless you have an AB blind test switch as a permanent part of your system, in the time it takes to switch out a set of cables, you will have lost the ability to accurately recall the exact sound of the previous cable or any subtle changes that the new cable "provides. "
You don’t need a permanent AB switch to do blind tests of cables, there are comparators that offer that function. Wireworld makes one and there are others. Have you ever experimented with these to test your opinions that you state as fact?
Of course, using an AB test - or better yet, an ABX test - is just one way to evaluate an audio component or cable.
Power cables can not make a difference…Can not convince me that the power cables that came with my Marantz MM8077 or my Parasound A21 are mediocre. Why would engineers design a product that its only purpose in life is to produce good sound with cheap power cords? Also, please explain how three feet of power cord somehow improves the electric that it is receiving from 100 ft of romax cable that is running through your home...
I am also at the stage in my gear collecting where I’m trying to tweak everything to it’s maximum performance. So, I recently replaced the XLR interconnects between my CD player and preamp and preamp and amplifier. I had about a $350 budget per set and stuck with it until my final decision was made. This is about a 300% increase in cost from the original cables. I started by listening to several songs I know well and use when I want to really show off the performance of my system. Then I replaced the CD to preamp cables first. I instantly noted there was more clarity, increase in timbre and depth to each of the songs when played back again, it was subtle but apparent. I then replaced the preamp to amp interconnects. This was where most of the changes happened! I’m not that good at using audiophile technical terms, so at the risk of mis-conveyance in description, I will simply say I am very happy with my purchase! My previous cables were Audioquest Diamondbacks, the new cables are Shunyata Venoms. The Diamondbacks were coloring the system, making everything too warm, while they did great for there cost, I wanted more accuracy. My preamp is tube and my amp is ss. The Venoms have brought a great balance to my system now and it doesn’t sound colored in the least. The great thing I’ve discovered with tube gear is that they are less fatigueing on the ears, so I’m getting great accuracy now with no fatigue, making it more an more difficult to break away from my listening sessions.
I personally can't necessarily say with 100% certainty that cables make a difference. But, I will say that if you are going to invest a significant amount of money in your system, then why not finish it off with great cables (as reflected in the eye of the buyer). To me, the fact that there are all sorts of cable options at all price points makes this a fun hobby/pass time. I have owned Audio Art, DH Labs, Blue Jean, Voo Doo, Audioquest, Wire World, Clarus Crimson, Signal, etc They are all respected companies that offer great cables - some expensive and some not so expensive.
bac2vinyl Power cables can not make a difference…Can not convince me that the power cables that came with my Marantz MM8077 or my Parasound A21 are mediocre. Why would engineers design a product that its only purpose in life is to produce good sound with cheap power cords?
>>>>>You ask, Why would engineer design a product that’s only purpose in life is to produce good sound with cheap power cords? Well, let’s look at the options, shall we?
1. They don’t care about how their product sounds. 2. They don’t believe in power cords or fuses. 3. They can’t hear the difference. 4. They CAN hear the difference but figure, the hell with it. 5. The cost of a good power cord raises the cost of the product too much. 6. They never heard of aftermarket power cords. They aren’t audiophiles, they’re engineers.
"Our ears and brain have very short term audio memory." ?? Some people must have one helluva time, recognizing who’s called them on the telephone then(sorry for your inability). A good man understands their own limitations. A wise man understands: everyone doesn’t share them. Can you tell if you're listening to Albert King, or BB King? I’ve been tuning my guitars, without any kind of tuning aid, perfectly in pitch, for the past 5 decades(+). Virtually all the EXPERIENCED guitarists I know, can tell you whether they’re hearing a Fender Strat, a Tele or a Les Paul, without looking and even what pickups are being used. Ditto, with drummers and real Turkish Zildjians vs Paiste vs Sabian. The same applies to hearing the differences in drum skins/heads(ie: Remo vs Evans and even the various iterations, within brands, once they’ve heard them). Such would have a hard time, if they couldn’t remember how their drums/guitars sounded, before the skins/strings lost their resonance. I could continue, but- if one has no experience in such matters, it’s impossible for them to(or, at least, unlikely they would) grasp the concept. So- it would be a waste of keystrokes.
"But that is reality, audiophiling is a lot like wine tasting, the more you know you spent the better the wine tastes. So that means if you want your system to sound better, upgrade your cables and it will... I’m saying that upgrading your cables WILL make a difference if you want them to, it is purely psychological." I you actually believe that there's no difference between wines and what's perceived by those that can tell you, where a good wine was grown, the vintage, etc, "is purely psychological", you obviously know as much about THAT subject, as you do about Physics. Stick with your Ripple or Boone's Farm(not to mention: zip cord) and save your money! https://winefolly.com/review/how-to-taste-wine-develop-palate/
@geoffkait - Since you posted about, "pro audio" immediately after my post, regarding cables and studio use, I gathered that was to what you were referring. I couldn’t agree more, regarding compression, BUT- as far as, "all the old dudes": the first I mentioned(as well as the others) have avoided that huge pitfall. Matter of fact, it’s Bob Ludwig that’s been trying to get the industry and people in general, to understand how bad it sucks. A talk he gave at AES, regarding the Loudness Wars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMWUOCbWp1M If anyone remembers, "the good old days", he does. If you’re interested in producers that avoid compression, even on CDs, try the labels I mentioned, if you’re into their preferred genres.
Yes, cables do matter. But not as much as some seem to think. And yes, I do have a pretty good system. And I used to work for a dealer that had some of the best systems available. And my hearing is pretty good too. In my opinion, spending thousands of $ on one cable is not cost effective. But I have no problem with people that do. Whatever makes a person happy I guess
It’s a forum comprised of people with different taste and viewpoints.What ever gets "resolved" here? Nothing that I can see. In fact, what is supposed to be resolved? You don’t see everyone agreeing on speakers, or speaker design, or amps/amp design, record cleaning, etc.
This thread is nothing different from the norm for most threads, whether it's a discussion about an audio brand, or some aspect of audio philosophy or any part of the hobby: people express their options on a subject, their reason why they hold them. Some other people agree, others don’t.
@dlcockrum , As much as I liked the political thread, it came to it's expected demise. I salute admin here for their tolerance and keeping things in order.
But as @prof rightly points out, just what thread here doesn't go through the same twists and turns, only to end up an exercise in futility?
It's nice to get some kind of consensus now and again but audiophiles are no less ardent or strident when it comes to promoting their particular views on any matter.
Do cables really matter? Yes they do, and I‘m telling you I’m pretty well qualified to state that reality. So are y’all going pile on and pat me on the back for preaching the truth, or dare to be a naysayer?
Here is a simple suggestion: if you think ANYTHING makes your music more satisfying then get it if you prefer. If you think NOTHING will make your system give you more listening pleasure, then it is easy to take care of that.
I don’t understand why some of you are so concerned with what other people think. Do what you like and just enjoy YOUR music. Enjoy.
I don't want to be judgemental here, Have anybody checked Gauge of wire Upgraded expensive cable to old cheap cable wire gauge? wire thickness makes a lot difference that proven science. Have tried thicker gauge wire before buying Costly cables?What cable can do is conduct more electrons. you can achieve by 2 ways. A good analogy is cars can achieve same speed in highways(wide no/few traffic) OR in race track (built for speed) Cable can change the Sound Quality is it better for Different Sounding?All copper are Oxygen free unless it is tarnished. If you open wire(old or New) sheath you see copper colour. Tarnishing means skin is oxidised. So exposed wire will oxidise( becomes ceramic so loss of conductivity) so tip contact have to be Gold plated so to avoid exposed part coming contact with. so Single crystal is about all marketing USP will reap big Money.
Here is a simple suggestion: if you think ANYTHING makes your music more
satisfying then get it if you prefer. If you think NOTHING will make
your system give you more listening pleasure, then it is easy to take
care of that.
I'm trying to figure out what you think you just added to this conversation. Do you think anyone here is actually arguing that you shouldn't buy what you want for your system?
Not that I've seen.
I don’t understand why some of you are so concerned with what other
people think.
Well, it's a discussion forum. It wouldn't be much of a discussion forum if nobody cared what anyone else thought. This is a place to share our thoughts about high end audio, right?
The thread asked the question "do cables really matter?" A bunch of people think the answer is obviously yes, some are a bit more cautious, others giving a more skeptical opinion. Nobody is sending goose-stepping soldiers in to people's homes to take away their expensive cables. Nor demanding anyone accept their own view or opinions.What is it that alarms you? People voicing different opinions?
Do what you like and just enjoy YOUR music. Enjoy.
Uh....thanks!
Time to turn off the lights in the forum I guess. We've got the go-ahead to just stop talking and enjoy our music! ;-)
Look I think the more resolving your speakers and components are the bigger the difference the cabling makes. The people at Gato Audio in Denmark have a lot of technology in developing their speakers. KR Audio and Resonessence Labs also spend a lot developing the products. When you start getting up there and your system is able to reproduce closer to real musical experiences the the cables make more of a difference. Spending a resonable amount on cables in a High end system makes sense
@prof- You seem to believe that studios don’t believe cables matter.
No I never said that. It wasn’t my point at all.
I’m aware that the occasional (and often catering to audiophiles) studio use some boutique cabling. But that’s not the norm and it doesn’t necessarily demonstrate anything about the cables they’ve chosen.
I’ve also known people in music and movie sound post production (e.g. sound mixers) who are audiophiles, and who buy audiophile cables for their home systems (though rarely the super expensive stuff), along with many who do not.
The fact that any engineer, or studio, chooses to buy more expensive audiophile cables doesn’t establish that the cables are any "better."It’s not like placebo and various bias effects just stop if you are in the sound business. That would be like saying "because I’m a scientist, my hypothesis is true." But of course scientists are wrong all the time about their hypotheses. That’s why it’s the method that counts, not the person.
For an engineer who claims some set of cables are better than another, it would come down to what method he used to judge that. Usually good engineers would have a technical hypothesis that can be measured.If we are talking about sound engineers (not EEs or whatever) simply selecting new cables because "they sounded better to us" then that’s just the same anecdotal evidence that any other audiophile uses to select cables. And anyone is susceptible to bias effects.
Am I saying the cables selected by the studios you named are in fact no better than other industry standard cables? No. I wouldn’t know that.(Although I’m skeptical). All I’m saying is that piling on more of the very anecdotal-style evidence that I find questionable doesn't really help.
And as I’ve said: the point I’ve been making about standard studio cabling (which is all over the map, insofar as I’m referencing variety of sources that audiophiles listen to, spanning decades and decades of recording), is that boutique-style audiophile cables are not required for extremely high fidelity signal transmission. Is it possible that *some* audiophile cables are even better quality than most ever used for recordings? I suppose it’s possible. But, even if true, it does not seem *necessary* to spend that extra money in order to have your cables transmit extremely high fidelity signals, given "standard" cable is used to do this all the time.
My system has its power amps upstairs in a ventilated cupboard, they are the matching amps for ATC active 300scm, necessary due to noisy cooling fans. They are connected to my preamp with approx 15m of studio balanced interconnects, then the amps are connected back to the speakers through another 15m of studio speaker cables which ATC supplied for the instal. The irony is, that all this studio quality cabling can clearly show the differences between a short 1m length of balanced studio cable between my dac and preamp and a high quality 3k Dynamique Audio Zenith2 interconnect. The studio cabling doesn’t seem to be acting as a ‘sound quality’ filter, it’s still passing everything through. However when replacing the Zenith2 with a 1m length of the studio cable between dac and preamp, the sound takes a serious knock downwards. Is this magic at play. Maybe if I replaced all 30m of cables, which would necessitate pulling my house apart again and require a remortgage, I might gain further improvements, but that just ain’t gonna happen!!!
Do cables makes a difference? Yes they do. I am not an expert, but I have a pretty good system. I have used cables that range in price from merely expensive to ludicrous. I have used networked and non networked cables. They all sound different. For sure example, I had Nordost Heimdall 2 cables, they were good, but I felt that they lacked a full range sound, simply put, I could do better. I moved to pricey MIT cables and the sound was exceptional. The bass was improved, the highs were better namely, the whole experience was vastly improved. When I upgraded my amplifier I had to change cables.... not because of of sound, but because of synergy. I went with cables that were less expensive but I found to be even more revealing. So did cables matter? Yes. Do they have more fidelity, I’m not sure. The mit cables were more detailed and provided more bass. Was the bass more faithful? I do not know. When I changed cables, I had to use a spare pair and Theisen cables had good highs but sounded veiled and lacked bass. The replacement cables did not have as much “bass” but I felt that they were even more revealing and detailed. Better? That is an opinion of one. Do they sound different? Yes!
"Usually good engineers would have a technical hypothesis that can be measured.If we are talking about sound engineers (not EEs or whatever) simply selecting new cables because "they sounded better to us" then that’s just the same anecdotal evidence that any other audiophile uses to select cables. And anyone is susceptible to bias effects. " (1) Given that there IS NO metric given, by current science, OR any electrical engineering standard, by which we can MEASURE what exactly results in a wider, deeper sound stage, the natural bloom of instruments, more detailed/realistic/cleaner highs with less stridency(at the same time), allows for more separation between voices(better imaging) and/or whatever else, those of us that hear those improvements appreciate AND (2) given that the owners of the studios that have proven track records, of putting out superior sounding products to my, as well as many other’s ears(judging by their clientele and rewards), obviously agree that better cables matter: I’ll stick with OUR, "biases". (WHEW- How’s that for a run-on sentence?) My ears have served me faithfully(even saved my life in a couple scenarios), as well as made many customers and musicians very happy, over the past few decades and I trust them. ’Nuff said, and I don’t expect all those keystrokes changed anyone’s opinion anyway, so I won’t waste any more on this thread(was that an, "AMEN", I heard?). ps: As mentioned, it doesn’t have to be expensive!
I just made this post in another thread, about sibilance. It appears it actually belongs here:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It can start right at the source point itself. Issues in microphone power supplies, bad microphone circuitry, bad microphone choices, bad microphone preamps and circuitry, bad mixing board wiring, bad mixing board power supplies, bad mixing board circuitry, and so on, down the line. It’s a very involved set of subjects.
Certain aspects of the human voice can emphasize this, and if the recording engineers are not cognizant of this issue being possible in each stage as mentioned.... then each part of this chain can be bad. Then it all adds up... and we get "screech-mud" for a a sonic result.
How much music have you heard that sounds like ’screech-thump, screech-thump’, on and on and on?
Sometimes good recordings are an accident, sometimes it’s intentional.
It’s a crap shoot, as they say. Bad? Bad we can find anywhere.
Bad is so easy to find that people have come to think that gear and recordings all sound that way. That the distortions are inherent to the situation and they don’t actually listen, they project what they know into it. (the human body is wired for this automaton behaviour)
Teaching people otherwise is a monumental task.
It’s the very heart of the audiophile conundrum. Some get it, some don’t.
It’s why we have such threads as cable debates. Some people live with an outward projection only, and some have a two way path of awareness, which is what is required to build a self beyond the basics.
Life is too short and we are only marginally learning and cognition machines...... we are principally unconscious mimic, copy, and mirror -- absorption machines.
If you watch yourself carefully you can see it in action.
Thus: "Give me the child for the first seven years and I will give you the man."
(Voltaire falsely attributed it to Ignatius of Loyola, as a barb at him - Voltaire was not fond of such, the correct origin is Aristotle)
Intelligence is a long slow walk back through the cluttered forest you came from.
I don’t get into the science project answers! So anyone please don’t get upset if it seems like I don’t answer your question. The bottom line is that it has been my experience when I put random cheap cable in I lose fidelity to my ears. It may be a change in the sound. I like an open midrange tight bass and extended highs. Some cables do that in my system. I’m going to like those more. I started this thread because at the end of the day cables matter. To some they matter because they change what we hear. For others it drives them nuts because some of us in their eyes spend too much for zero improvement based on what they hear or can’t hear. Some of us would rather spend more on equipment or tweaks. I enjoy what my cables do and I can tell the difference. To each his own. I’m not hear for case study. I enjoy the tunes. You should too cables or not!
I honestly don’t know if you were serious in giving teo’s posts props, given I have yet to see anything but what looks like irrelevant (or specious) drive-by philosophizing from him. Though I may certainly have missed some excellent posts by teo, virtually all I’ve seen (at least in these types of threads) fall pretty heavily into the geoffkait category.
What I see are vague attempts at establishing some elitism for those who believe the tweakier side of high end audio - various versions of "those poor skeptical souls are unenlightened." E.g.:
It’s why we have such threads as cable debates. Some people live with an outward projection only, and some have a two way path of awareness, which is what is required to build a self beyond the basics.
And some of those who don’t like what skeptics have to say seem to fall for Teo’s faux-philosophical tone, noticing it’s disparagement of critics supports their own feelings, and think "wow...deep...and so right!"
But what I haven’t actually seen from Teo is an actual cogent argument, that would show his points are directly pertinent to, or act as an actually justified critique, of anyone’s points. In other words: I've yet to see Teo do anything other than raise vague strawmen.
But...hey...I could be wrong. Is Teo doing anything other than appealing to people’s biases with his vague put-downs of skepticism?
Can you point to the relevance of anything teo just wrote to anything I’ve written. Anything that shows I’ve claimed something untrue, or unreasonable, for instance?
You’ll pardon me for saying so, but there seems to be a very fine line between satire, sarcasm and pseudo skepticism on this thread recently. Would it be asking too much to make more liberal use of emojis to ensure everyone understands if you’re serious or sarcastic or whatever?
If anyone was hoping that we would make a millimeters advance in this ancient debate then I'm sorry to state the obvious - no we won't. Not now, not ever as long as cables remain the fastest way to make a quick buck in audio.
@prof I enjoy a post even when I do not agree with it, especially so when that post triggers my brain to think.
In @teo_audio ’s post regarding ’sibilance’ (from another thread) and reposted a few posts above this one, I found value in what he was communicating. It made me think.
My use of the word ’laden’ (following value) concerned me and I came close to qualifying it with an added ’positive’....this likely would have helped with the interpretation.
I was sincere in my response to this (his) specific post. No sarcasm or satire or veiled (or otherwise) intent implied. : )
When I zipped the Royal Gorge I had a high level of confidence in the cable but somewhat less confidence in the teenager that hooked up my harness....so I watched his work closely. Thankfully, he was good at his job!
Newcomers would be much better off if they shut up unless spoken to. Just my opinion. Five years of lurking can be substituted for one year of posting.
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