DO CABLES REALLY MATTER?
@stevecham You say cables matter. That's fine. Some of us would like to hear your reasoning so we can see another viewpoint. However if you read the subject of this thread "DO CABLES REALLY MATTER?" there is no for or against argument in question. We are all free to discuss the pro's and con's, but don't be condescending and call poster's who may not agree with you, "naysayers". You haven't justified yourself in your arguments. You have simply jumped on the name calling bandwagon. |
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ganainm wrote, “And the reason the burden of proof is not onthe sceptics is because of 150 years of Electrical Theory and Engineering not to mention the huge majority of actual unbiased blinded testing. If that stuff means nothing to you, well there really isn’t a discussion to be had.” >>>>>Huge majority of actual unbiased blinding (sic) testing? Name one. ganainm then wrote, “And if one CAN offer repeatable, verifiable evidence of the Highly Unlikely in signal transmission, well, as I tell my friends who are fervent believers in ESP or ghosts, or UFO’s or homeopathy, great, bring it on I would truly love to have a solid paradigm stood on it’s head. I WANT to believe in magic, really I do.” >>>>Typical beginner pseudo skeptic mistake. Accusing the other side of believing in UFOs, ghosts, etc. As if pseudo skeptics are not crazy or deluded. 😛 ganainm then wrote, “That seems to be the last of what I have to offer this thread, thanks for the many well intentioned thoughtful and funny posters of all mind sets. Shame about the other types. Good night and joy be with you all.” >>>>>That’s all ya got? Oh, well, b-bye! |
kosst_amojan I think cables make a difference, but I think beyond a point it’s more about stoking the users ego, vanity, and delusions than achieving higher quality audio. If you NEED a $10,000 interconnect cable to get what you’re looking for, to ADD the color you’re seeking (or your purely opinionated lack of), I think you should be reevaluating your choices of components. >>>>Earth to Costco - nobody uses $10,000 interconnects. Well, maybe one or two. Anyone can come up with some ridiculous example. By the way, Is is stoking the ego or stroking the ego? I gather from your posts you’re a stroker. Let the witch hunt continue! |
ganainm ... the reason the burden of proof is not onthe sceptics is because of 150 years of Electrical Theory and Engineering not to mention the huge majority of actual unbiased blinded testing. If that stuff means nothing to you, well there really isn't a discussion to be had ...This is a hobbyist group, so there's actually no "burden of proof" on anyone here. No one in this group owes you anything. But since you bring up "actual unbiased testing," please do tell us about those tests. Who designed them, who conducted them, who participated? Please also tell us about what you call the the minority of tests where the results were not consistent with your beliefs. If you're not willing to share details, "well there really isn't a discussion to be had." |
amg56: The OP asked simply, "Do cables really matter?" My answer is 100% subjective from long experience. I don’t need to qualify anything quantitatively. This is my personal opinion and my long term investments in equipment and software over many years qualifies me to be able to make this call. Yes, they do matter! That’s my answer to the OP’s question. Now, ask me a specific question about any of the brands I mentioned and I will be happy to respond, as long as you are willing to take the system and listening room contexts into account and that are acknowledged as contributory to my opinions. There are no absolutes here, only impressions. What I like personally, someone else here may dislike. What I can discern as a difference, someone else could negate and dismiss. Judge for yourself. Personally, I would never spend $10K on a cable due to the asymptotic law of diminishing returns. |
By the way, the reason I implied belief in UFOs is not a logical argument for pseudo skeptics to use is because, well, speaking frankly, there is no proof that UFOs don’t exist. I realize it sounds cool to say oh, that guy probably believes in UFOs if he believes in expensive cables. Yuk, yuk! That’s why it’s not a real argument. It’s a phoney argument. But, you know how people are, they believe things because that’s what they choose to believe. People who don’t believe in UFOs don’t have any real scientific basis, or any kind of basis, for that particular belief other than that’s what they choose to believe. At one time I worked a few blocks from Project Bluebook, the US Air Force office that studied UFOs and UFO sightings. I was also a few blocks away from where the live or dead aliens were taken from Roswell for who knows what. 👽 But I’ve said too much. |
Interesting how the "U" remains, after all this time, in the term UFO. But in this ever emerging world of Orwellian doubleplusgoodspeak, I wouldn’t be surprised if that term got turned upside down too. Personally, I’d like to believe in UFOs and have been waiting for years for one to land in my backyard, or at least provide me with a compelling third kind experience. But, alas, so far, no such luck. |
In light of the subject being discussed... https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/16/us/politics/pentagon-program-ufo-harry-reid.html The F18 video is "interesting". |
@stevecham It's also funny how no pictures of ghosts or other supernatural phenomena have appeared in recent times despite the number of cameras now in use worldwide going off the scale. Kind of puts centuries of anecdotal evidence into context. Human beings sure are a suggestible lot as any stage hypnotist will readily confirm. |
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Prof-you are wrong in your analogy with cameras. Today’s cameras are so much better than just a couple of years ago. My iPhone camera is probably better than the 1 ansel Adams used. I had a Nikon d1 which was a $5000 camera 20 years ago and it had features than some of the newer cameras don’t have, except for 1, number of megapixels. The d1 had 3 megapixels, the new nikons have10x more megapixels. If you blow up a picture from a d1 past a 8x10, you get fuzziness and it looks like s---, blow up a 25 or more megapixels camera and you will see it as pristine. Same goes with cables, new technology has improved the sound quality and sometimes this requires paying more $$$. |
So essentially calvinj has shown, repeatedly, that he really just created this thread to troll people who are more skeptical than he is about cables. Elizabeth also was happy enough to enter this thread and "alienate another audiophile" and "drive the nail in." And yet we see complaints ini this same thread that "cable skeptics" are the ones looking to agitate. |
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rbstehno, I don’t think you quite got the point I had made. The first is that, whatever amazing detail you EVER get through the most expensive, best audiophile cables you can buy - all that will ever tell you is about the sound quality that was passed along a large number of non-audiophile cabling to make that source (in the vast majority of recordings). Every time someone puts $10,000 of new Nordost cable or whatever in to their system and gasps at the soundstage information, glorious amounts of subtle, organic detail, realism of the highs etc, they are gasping at the sound quality sent through numerous run-of-the-mill cables that were likely used in making that recording. What you seemed to miss in my analogy to cameras, is that EVEN IF it were the case an audiophile cable were able to transmit more sonic information than the cables used to make the recording, if you are using that cable on the other side of the recording process - in your sound system - for the most part you are still limited to "viewing" the information at the level it was "sampled" by the original cables used to make that source. Your new cables can’t create new information that never got to the source recording in the first place. Just like using an 4K display to view a 1080p source, if almost everything you ever watch was recorded with a 1080p camera, you are not seeing more than 1080p even on your 4K display. |
Yes essentially Calvinj has shown that in his system he hears a difference between cables. He has also shown that it’s very simple to come to the conclusion. Do you like the sound better in your system based on the cables you use? Yes. If you do and it’s reasonable in cost then get them. Simple it’s not that hard. Doesn’t take a thesis! |
prof wrote, “The first is that, whatever amazing detail you EVER get through the most expensive, best audiophile cables you can buy - all that will ever tell you is about the sound quality that was passed along a large number of non-audiophile cabling to make that source (in the vast majority of recordings).” Well, that argument actually misses the point. On several levels. Nobody says you can’t also improve upon whatever other wiring and cabling is in the system. Obviously you can’t improve whatever damage has already been done in the studio. Although most good studios probably take much care with everything including cables. Let’s call that a constant. You can only do what you can do. No reason to go crazy. It’s important to keep in mind there’s no Absolute of sound, everything is relative. But there is much that can be done on the home front. You’re either on the bus 🚌 or off the bus. That’s why some, perhaps many, audiophiles go to the trouble to upgrade internal speaker wiring including crossover network wiring, internal amplifier wiring, etc. It is also worth ensuring ALL wires and cables are in the correct direction, you, know, if one wants to go all the way. Interconnects, speaker cables, power cord wires, fuses. After all, we’re 99% sure directionality is real. Aren’t we? 😳 prof also wrote, “Every time someone puts $10,000 of new Nordost cable or whatever in to their system and gasps at the soundstage information, glorious amounts of subtle, organic detail, realism of the highs etc, they are gasping at the sound quality sent through numerous run-of-the-mill cables that were likely used in making that recording.” >>>>>Obviously, as one upgrades various links in the system certain improvements should be heard. But there’s no guarantee. And not everyone thinks Nordost cables are AMAZING sounding. It all depends quite a bit depending on a number of factors. I suspect you’re using this somewhat outrageous example, off the top of your head, not experience, you’re just guessing, for effect mostly as folks have rather differing opinions of Nordost cables. Nice try though. Every time a bell rings an angel gets his wings. |
Oxygen free copper cable is very difficult to better. In fact any copper cable is difficult to beat. Solid core, silver plated, directionality all seem to make no difference to me. In fact I recall a demonstration by QED at a Hi-Fi show in London where they attempted to reveal the differences between < £1, £5 and £25 per metre cable through a well respected Arcam system. Almost everyone agreed that the only sonic difference heard was between the bell wire and the £5 (Silver Anniversary) cable. It was difficult to be sure that the £25 cable wasn't making things worse as it certainly didn't make them better. It's worth bearing in mind that a good hypnotist could have easily had most of us believing that the bell wire was superior to the £25 cable AND vice versa. Audiophiles are not particularly known for their resistance to suggestibility. That usually only comes, if it ever comes, from bitter experiences after many years. It's also a good rule of thumb that if something isn't immediately and obviously better, it ain't. You should never ever have to strain to hear improvements. Its a crime against nature. |
Good points. Unfortunately they only reinforce my position that demos, tests, shoot-outs, blind tests, etc. are unreliable especially if the results are NEGATIVE. And it doesn’t matter if the tests/demos/shoot-outs are fast, slow, over the course of hours or days, or whatever. They are still unreliable. Otherwise any group of all thumbs hearing challenged pseudo skeptics would be the arbiters of sound, which they actually aren’t. And while it’s a shame you personally aren’t able to distinguish certain differences in wire, direction, etc. those results should not be extrapolated to generalize about anyone else. |
Cables do matter. Don't fall for the pickled red herring of red herrings that once some old, run of the mill cable is used to record something that a better made cable can't be any better at retrieving more info. That you can't get any more out of it with a better cable presupposes that something happened to the info when recorded, using the older cable. About 100% of the signal is/was passed by the older cable (unless you're running 50' of speaker cable or 150' of interconnects)) only to be masked by it's inferior design during recording and playback using the same cable. It didn't eat it, or absorb it, so where did the signal go? Does the older cable look like a boa digesting a goat? The music residing in that recording is there even if it came across on some run of the mill Belden cable. The better cable will reveal more of it. And it doesn't need to be expensive. Just take a look at what one ex Belden engineer designed over at Cabledyne (their entry level speaker cable). I, myself, use Tempo Electric speaker cables and the only real cost is in the silver used and the gauge necessary to get what I like out of it, and it's as simple a cable as one can get. And, if you get that lower noise floor, freeing up more info to make it more enjoyable and realistic, that minute amount is across the board in any and all ways you chose to look at it adding up to a bigger and more satisfying amount of appreciation in what you hear. You guys who say otherwise need a better argument. All the best, Nonoise |
nonoise, Thanks, but I found your post fairly confusing, not sure exactly what you wanted to argue. Because it seemed at some points you acknowledged that standard cable used for the recording transmitted 100% of the signal...and then at another point seemingly leaped to the idea you want a "better cable" to transmit that same information in your stereo system. The way you got there didn’t make sense. So, as you said: The music residing in that recording is there even if it came across on some run of the mill Belden cable. Right. The incredible sound of many recordings that blow audiophiles away was easily transmitted via run of the mill cables. The better cable will reveal more of it. Wait...how can using a "better cable" in your stereo system "reveal more" than what is on the source (which was captured by, for sake of argument, standard Belden cables)? That seems impossible. You can't reveal "more" of what wasn't there; the only thing there to "reveal" is what was transmitted by the original, basic recording/mastering cables. Can you clarify your argument for me? Thanks. |
Prof, I already addressed your concerns it in my statement and it wasn't confusing unless it's another game afoot. There are better made cables that allow more info to come forth. You've said as much earlier when you admitted that a minute amount improvement can't account for the big increases that some say they hear and appreciate. I say they do. The signal measured shows everything to be okay but it doesn't take into account what is smeared or messed with by a lesser cable. They are tone controls after all but some do less damage than others. They may measure similar but can sound quite different. The smeared or compromised sound is not what's getting through in the final recording. It's what being heard while it happens. And it's repeatable until a better cable is used. Then, one can hear and appreciate the difference. All the best, Nonoise |
Sorry nonoise, I still can’t make heads or tails of what you are saying, and I see nothing addressing the point I had repeated to you. (I think maritime51 is right about this, but I’ll try pressing on for a moment). There are better made cables that allow more info to come forth. That’s the very claim that is being questioned here. What is your evidence for this? Take a standard Belden 10-gauge 5T00UP for, say, a 6 foot speaker cable run. I choose this because Belden has been making professional industry standard cables for decades upon decades, know what they are doing, and because one can find test measurements for this cable, e.g: https://www.audioholics.com/gadget-reviews/blue-jeans-10awg-speaker-cable-5t00up/blue-jeans-cable-me... Can you point to independent measurements of a high end audiophile cable showing it transmits "more info?" You’ve said as much earlier when you admitted that a minute amount improvement can’t account for the big increases that some say they hear and appreciate. Essentially, yes. But you seem to mistakenly infer I have agreed that people actually ARE hearing the BIG improvements they claim, rather than it being from bias/imagination etc. Maybe some people are hearing real differences; but it's hard to discern in which cases that may be, when it's all anecdote with no controlling for imagination and bias. I say they do. Well....anyone can say anything. But that’s called "begging the question" given what is under debate. The signal measured shows everything to be okay but it doesn’t take into account what is smeared or messed with by a lesser cable. Wait, so you are saying a standard cable can measure just fine, but the measurements don’t take in to account "smearing and messing up" of the signal? That’s not making sense; can you explain better? How do you know a cable is smearing/messing things up....if measurements show it’s passing the signal fine?
Try as I might, I can make no sense of that paragraph. (Can anyone else parse what nonoise is trying to say?) I still don’t see how you have addressed the issue I raised: IF you are hearing wonderful sonics from a recording that was created using regular cables, THEN that tells you what type of sonic information those regular cables are capable of transmitting. |
Prof, I never said it transmits more info, but that a better made cable doesn't mess as much with the info. There seems to be more breeds of parakeets than meets the eye. I have no measurement nor do I care in the least to procure them. I rely on my ears. But you seem to mistakenly infer I have agreed that people actually ARE hearing the BIG improvements they claim, rather than it being from bias/imagination etc. No, I never said, nor inferred that. As for beggars, they come in all sizes and shapes, don't they? As for the rest of what you ask, I replied to that earlier before your last post. As for your inability to appreciate my point of view or even to entertain it, it could be that when something begins to make sense, it conflicts with a pre conceived notion or idea. All the best, Nonoise |
