Yes they do. I’m not here to advocate for any particular brand but I’ve heard a lot and they do matter. High Fidelity reveal cables, Kubala Sosna Elation and Clarity Cable Natural. I’m having a listening session where all of them is doing a great job. I’ve had cables that were cheaper in my system but a nicely priced cable that matches your system is a must. I’m not here to argue what I’m not hearing because I have a pretty good ear. I’m enjoying these three brands today and each is presenting the music differently but very nicely. Those who say cables don’t matter. Get your ears checked. I have a system that’s worth about 30 to 35k retail. Now all of these brands are above 1k and up but they really are performing! What are your thoughts.
elizabeth, This may come as a shock, but what is "drivel" to you is not drivel to other people. Other people are not you, they have other interests and experience you may not have. You might want to consider that when asking to have "binned" a thread you personally don’t care for ;-) Which leads to the question of why you participate so much in a thread you dislike so much?
Maybe it will also come as a shock that likely no one comes to a thread like this expecting the issue to be "settled" by this discussion. Why enter with such an unrealistic expectation?
Another likely fact: the audience for a thread is usually far larger than the number of people posting in the thread. Not everyone may have read every other thread about the cable controversy, and may be finding newly stated points of view to think about.
As far as wasting people’s time, you seem to be projecting your own boredom and lack of interest in this subject to others. You may as well be entering a discussion board about a sport you don’t follow to declare to everyone else "you are wasting your time discussing stuff that’s not interesting or changing anyone’s mind." I mean, it’s the weirdest thing to enter a subject that clearly interests other people to declare their own time has been wasted reading it.
It’s interesting for many people to see a controversial subject debated, and to consider the merits of the arguments for each side. Someone may find his own position merited in the discussion, or may find "the other side" has actually made some decent points to consider. (And a number of people have stated they have enjoyed reading many of the posts in this thread).
Some people may not have come to a firm conclusion on this subject, and not everyone is as close minded to not be moved at all by reasoned argument and/or evidence.
Even you seemed to have started in this thread on a firmer position that cables make a difference, earlier stating:
elizabeth: I am totally in the audio cables can make a difference camp,
But now your posts have softened that position to:
elizabeth: The title of this thread is:" DO CABLES REALLY MATTER? " and I am saying Maybe,
So it seems odd that you castigate the idea of this thread as having no effect on anyone’s position, when your very own statements on cable differences have become more equivocal. Progress has been made ;-)
Yes, yes, it so often comes back to that. The cables don't make a difference in your system because you can't afford an expensive system like mine!Honestly, isn't it always that argument or "your ears just aren't cultured enough" .
I go back to the old Gold Ends cables in about 1970. The deal was that low capacitance between the preamp and power amp was the big deal. I've never heard any difference at any time in reasonably constructed cables. Now it's fine if you want to spend your money that way. Please though, none of the above arguments that are basically a put down of those that aren't capable of hearing the difference either because of poverty or lack of sophistication. An active imagination is a good thing. Self delusion, not so much.
Which makes more difference, the cost of the cable or the sound you hear when you use the cables? I'm not going to say that expensive cables always sound better, but even Monoprice $3 interconnects sound better with HFC Magnetic adapters. I will be listening to a loom of new CT-2 interconnects, along with Reveal speaker and power cables. I expect they will sound different and maybe better.
I'm not going to read through all 11 pages of this thread, but I did have a random thought and this seemed like the best spot for it...
Suppose you had two speaker designers at your disposal, and you gave them both an identical set of a woofer and a tweeter and said make me a speaker. Would you expect them to sound the same? Of course not. One might create a sealed cabinet, or an open baffle, or a bookshelf, or a floorstander, etc.
Now suppose you gave them identical cabinets also. Would you expect them to sound the same? I doubt it, they would probably design different crossover frequencies, use different capacitors, silver vs copper wire, different cabinet damping, etc.
So you specify the crossover frequency for them. Will they still sound different? Then you give them each a run of the same speaker wire. How about now? If they still sound different, at what point do the speakers sound identical?
Now suppose both designers are in a vertically integrated company like Audio Note or Bryston and you throw an amplifier into the mix and say build me a speaker and also an amp to drive them. How many components of the amp would you have to control before they sounded the same? What if I add a DAC to the mix?
If I hear Yanny and you hear Laurel, will the speakers ever sound the same to both of us? What if I use music that I like and you hate? Will you be able to tell the difference if you aren't familiar with the music?
Audio equipment is more alike than it is different. It's still a source, amp, and speakers. And yet it does sound different. My system does not sound the same as my buddy's system. At all. I know I wouldn't pass a double blind cable test, but I also know that two speakers that have the same specs don't sound the same at all. Same for amps, does a 100w Best Buy amp sound the same as a 100w Pass Labs amp?
My point is when we ask if cables matter, maybe we should instead ask what doesn't matter? We listen to systems, not cables, but the cables interact with the system just like speaker crossovers, transformers, power supplies, and everything else, not to mention the music being played. So if cables don't matter, what does matter?
I wasn’t expecting it to turn into blah blah blah. I don’t do scientific testing. I’m only interested in sound. I don’t care about the science or a thesis. I don’t answer your questions cause I don’t care about them. No offense. There are different levels to audio. Sometimes you have your vintage guys. You have the lower end systems then when you hit midfi you have better equipment with transparency. Then when you hit the high end you have special equipment that most of the time performs better where you can hear more and suttle changes in sound. I have heard vintage gear all the way to,a 700k system so I have some gauging on what’s possible Audio wise. My system is modest in my eyes but I have a great sound I’m happy with where I hear the differences in cabling. You may not. Your hearing might be off. Maybe your equipment doesn’t do what some of the others I’ve heard do. Anyway enjoy your music and your theory.
So, really, you just find the actual debate to be outside your interest. In other words, you are fundamentally incurious about the very subject you started a thread on.
That is just really odd.
(Of course it can also be explained by you just wanting to start a troll thread to diss people with a skeptical view rather than interact with their ideas...but I was trying to draw out something...anything...more promising than that from you. Ah well....).
It’s not that difficult to see from calvinj’s point of view there is no debate. He made that pretty clear in his somewhat baiting OP. That’s why the OP was all caps. I’m sure calvinj thanks all those who took the bait. 🤡
By the way, there is no difference between cable skeptics and say, skeptics of the Tice Clock, Mpingo discs, Silver Rainbow Foil, the Green Pen, Schuman Frequency Generator, tiny little bowl resonators or demagnetizing CDs. The only difference is how the skeptic will decide to formulate his philosophic and scientific attack.
Cable debates do have a certain sporting value. There may be no winners or losers but the fun is in taking part.
As we have no voting system or judge and jury there may never be an end to this debate. Unless of course WS agree to give the final word to an indifferent bystander, Elizabeth perhaps.
Alternatively we could attempt to have it added to a Philosophy syllabus throughout our most noble seats of learning. It could join other perplexing questions such as the following :
Is our universe real?
Do we have free will?
Does God exist? ...
Can you really experience anything objectively?
and finally the big one, the one you're no doubt waiting for - Do cables make a difference?
It might work if we can only get someone with a fully working brain to run it for us. How about it prof? Would you be up for attempting to steer contrary disinterested undergrads through the difficult and treacherously challenging paths of logic and rationality?
You're seem to be the only one among us here with the necessary patience and experience.
No not outside my interest as far as debating is concerned. I’ve read your viewpoint. Your several viewpoints actually. They are long and winding. I’m looking at others at this point. No offense to you and the thesis. Lol. Enjoy
"We" make audio to complicated. It's actually pretty simple...if you hear a difference with cables that you prefer than purchase them. If you don't hear a difference or you hear a difference that's not to your liking, don't purchase them. Audio is about preferences based on the context of the system and room. That includes speakers, amps, preamps, cables, and everything else.
calvinj"No not outside my interest as far as debating is concerned. I’ve read your viewpoint. Your several viewpoints actually. They are long and winding."
Well there really is nothing to significantly further assess, analyze or debate because the science in this matter has already been substantially established, reviewed and evaluated and there are actual links already provided in this thread that show even under rigorously designed, conducted and multiple double blind scientific tests that at least some listeners can reliably and repeatedly distinguish audible differences between cables. There are several participants in this thread who have clearly demonstrated that there interest in this topic is to challenge, argue and dispute these results but there is nothing further that can positively result from engaging these people because there interests are confined and limited to argumentation and posturing conducted under a cloak of science that careful examination reveals to be misapplied, misinformed, misunderstood and corrupted it is senseless and futile to invoke reason, science and the scientific method to refute, deny and obfuscate the previously established audible differences between some cables. Just as their are people who insist that the Earth is flat there are those who for purposes of they're own amusement, entertainment and unending delight come hear to "upset the applecart" as Americans say and lay claim to special knowledge, understanding, or insight that produces results and conclusions that conflict with that which has already been established.
cd318 Cable debates do have a certain sporting value. There may be no winners or losers but the fun is in taking part.
>>>>I don’t imagine the fish in the barrel think it’s very sporting. But, hey, I’m not a fish psychologist. Are fish masochists? That’s the big question. 🤔
I hear a little sarcasm in your comments. I had Wireworld Platinum XLR cables and compared them to Audioquest Fire. There is a clear difference between the two. Wireworld is a neutral cable in my system. The Audioquest Fire is a more forward cable, where the lead singer is clearly pushed a little forward. In my system I prefer the Fire. In another system I'm sure I could easily prefer Wireworld. What we hear or don't hear has to be taken in the context of the "SYSTEM". Not just with cables, but every component. It's conceivable to me that you can insert a cable in one system and not hear any difference, but that same cable may have an audible impact in another system.
Apriori, cables MUST matter because 1) there is an industry with many entrant manufacturers and dealers 2) there are many customers of these products and 3) the interest level at times to discuss this very topic outweighs the very activity of listening to the damn things.
Who cares what they sound like when they make money and use up valuable time in this forum?
@ricred1 the rest of your post that I agree with 100%....
It's actually pretty simple...if you hear a difference with cables that you prefer than purchase them. If you don't hear a difference or you hear a difference that's not to your liking, don't purchase them. Audio is about preferences based on the context of the system and room. That includes speakers, amps, preamps, cables, and everything else.
The ridiculous part is the time spent arguing over what other people hear....and, of course, people who believe they hear what others tell them they should be hearing, and not to forget those who claim that people who do not hear the prescribed changes have either weak systems, poor hearing, or both, and finally those who claim it is scientifically impossible to hear differences in cables with like LCR properties.
A good game of dodgeball would have a better chance of sorting out differences in opinions about cables than the discussions of this thread.
Ricred1 finally a voice of reason. Some systems are not made of constructed upon which someone can hear a difference. There are audible difference in cables. Some can cause a wider soundstage, better bass, more airy treble, a more open midrange, some are more forward than others. Some systems are not as transparent or resolving as others. Some people have never really experienced higher end systems for long periods of time to even be able to have a decent reference point. Anyway I think some guys made it too complicated.
Anyway I don’t care about the debates. I’m into the sound the music. The ear candy. When I can hear the texture of the horn the air of the flute and the decay coming off a cymbal. That matters to me. I don’t care how they do it. As long as they do.
Well, I guess I’ll come right out and say it. Many folks who have excellent hearing, who have resolving and transparent systems, don’t hear the difference between cables. That’s what makes this topic so interesting. You probably thought this was going to be a slam dunk, right?
No it’s actually a blocked shot. Some of us have excellent hearing and can hear a difference. It’s makes a huge difference in some of our systems to our ears. We will do what we do while you stick to homemade monoprice or whatever.
If your system is resolving and transparent. You will hear a difference
in cabling. Maybe you like it maybe you don’t but you will hear a
difference.
I'm thinking calvinj at this point has automated his responses, set on "repeat," though the AI aspect is lacking as it doesn't seem to recognize and respond to previous human responses.
calvinj OP No it’s actually a blocked shot. Some of us have excellent hearing and can hear a difference. It’s makes a huge difference in some of our systems to our ears. We will do what we do while you stick to homemade monoprice or whatever.
>>>>>If it looks like a troll, acts like a troll and walks like a troll....it’s a troll.
Yeah trolls usually don’t know they are trolls. As far as automated responses go. Quick and easy to read. Bumble bees bumble. Lol anyway enjoy talking yourself into circles with all that MARVIN THE MARTIAN TALK!
As a person somewhat new to digital music,
I was very skeptical at first; however, I've learned that cables do matter. Streaming Tidal in my system (NAD M12/M22 v2/Innuos Zenith MK2, Tannoy 8 dcti), I compared my stock USB, Ethernet, and power cables against moderately priced better cables of each. For my comparison, I started with all stock cables. I compared Tidal playing through the Zenith against Tidal playing through a Squeezebox Duet and through the NAD BluOS module.
Switching back and forth, I noticed an immediate overall improvement in SQ via the Zenith. From that point, I replaced the stock USB cable in the Zenith, and noticed an immediate but subtle improvement in SQ. Next, I replaced the Zenith's power cable - same result, immediate but subtle improvement in SQ. Next, I replaced the Ethernet cable - same result.
The better cables provided a better sound stage and I could hear more music, which leads me to believe that better cable provide more digital information. The better cables provided a warmer, tighter sound than my stock cables. In short, the music just sounds better to me, and others who heard my system before and after.
@oldschool1948 I only do digital as well and I use tidal as well. Thanks for your comments. I’m demoing a whole loom of Kubala sosna elation cables right now that are crazy expensive but they sound really good. Gives music improvements in soundstage and transparency. I also go the high fidelity ct-2 it also open the music up. It has a quicker leading edge to the music and sounds quicker than most other cables. I’m going to be adding an ultimate power cable today and mix and match somethings. I started this thread to really see if others were hearing what I’ve heard through the years and that’s a difference in cabling. Depending on tastes the difference can be positive and negative. @geoffkait what does your system consists of. I’ve seen all these comments but don’t know your system. Just a question @prof what is your system consisting of. If you run vintage gear you might hear less of a difference as opposed to a more digital system. List your gear. I have gato FM6 from Denmark, Kr Audio va900 Integrated, Resonessence Mirus Pro Dac, Sony modwright 5400 tube modded CD player Melco n1a server, Rel 212 se, I use a mix of High fidelity, atlas mavros and clarity Cable cabling. List your stuff
Thiel’s flagship 3.7 speakers (and also Thiel 2.7s).
MBL 121 Radialstrahler speakers
Sources: Raspberry Pi for music server streaming of ripped CDs/Tidal to Benchmark Dac 2L (and a Bechmar Dac1).
Transrotor Fat Bob S turntable, Benz Micro Ebony L cartridge.
Into Conrad Johnson Premier 16LS2 pre-amp.
Conrad Johnson Premier 12 140w/side tube monoblock amplifiers.
FYI: The Thiel 3.7s and MBL speakers are world class in terms of resolution (see any reviews of the 3.7 or MBLs - Jonathan Valin of TAS who reviews SOTA speakers has touted the MBL tweeter as among the world’s best for years - my MBLs use the same mids and tweeters as on their most eye-wateringly expensive systems).
As I’ve been wanting to downsize from the Thiel 3.7s a bit, I’ve kept an eye out for possible replacements for the last two years. Among the speakers I’ve auditioned Raidho, the latest Audio Physic, the newest Focal Kanta 2, the latest Paradigm Persona speakers that everyone is raving about for their beryllium drivers, newer Monitor Audio, Revel, the Magico A3, Joseph Audio etc. None have obviously shown up the Thiels or MBL in terms of resolution. When I get home from auditioning those speakers and play the same tracks on my system, I hear all the details I heard with those speakers...and usually those other speakers were auditioned with high end audiophile cables.
calvinj @geoffkait what does your system consists of. I’ve seen all these comments but don’t know your system.
>>>>What’s the difference? What good would it do you to know my system? It certainly wouldn’t change my comments. I’m not a big fan of showing off how expensive one’s system is to try to prove a point, like some people. I’ve heard my share of expensive systems that sound like crap. Did I answer your question?
I’ll show you mine if you show me yours. 😳 Please don’t hit me over the head with your Kubala Sosnas.
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