For years I have followed various forums discussing this topic. I recently upgraded my cables spending way more than I ever thought I would and I don’t know if it was money well spent but it made an enjoyable difference. Interestingly, on a CD I listen to frequently, there is one single piano note that has always been kind of jarring to my ears. It went away with the new cables. The volume stayed the same but the part that annoyed me was gone. In that particular instance I am 100% convinced I could tell the difference in any blind test between my old cable and the new one.
The other thought I have had on this subject is that some people just notice nuance and subtlety more. Or, it is more important to their listening experience. This occurred to me after playing music (drums) with a particular bass player. He would listen to a part on a recording and when he played it, I noticed it wasn’t quite the same. I don’t play bass so I can’t tell you what was different. The important thing is HE couldn’t notice the difference and insisted he was playing exactly like the recording. After that I realized that was a constant differentiator with other musicians I played with. The good players had a nuance and dynamic subtlety to their playing that others didn’t. At first I thought that was just because they had better technic and practiced more. And that was partly true. But the reason they had better technic and practiced more was because they could hear the subtly and nuance in other excellent musicians and wanted to achieve that. Those like my bass player friend, never noticed that nuance and never tried to achieve it. I could be way off base but I have an unscientifically proven feeling that it’s not so much what audiophiles hear as what they notice. Just like two people can walk into a room and notice or not notice very different things. So, I also think it is quite possible that whatever is being tested by the experts is missing something - maybe because these testers don’t notice what others may hear so have no understanding what to test for.
Again - these are my very unscientific thoughts on the subject. I clearly hear the difference in cables just like I can hear a difference in the same tube manufactured by a different company. Some I find musical, others I don’t. How does an engineer measure ’musical’ in this context?
He’s about reducing the noise floor of the overall system. IMO he makes an interesting case for this with his demonstration.
This video is deceptive. He's showing us something A. G. Bell knew over 100 years ago. You twist wire and it helps reduce unwanted noise. It's why wire has been twisted in phone lines forever. Take the zip cord twist it like the other cables and like magic your radio antenna is no more. 18 year olds might not know this but old guys like me do.
@zgas-music. I'm glad It's good to see someone else who realises they don't know it all. Many here haven't grown up yet. I knew it all too when I was eighteen.
Thanks for posting this. I’ve been a naysayer a long time but decided to watch this since he claims to prove his point. But this guy’s argument is different than the usual cable claims (zingier highs! transparent midrange! tighter bass! etc). He’s about reducing the noise floor of the overall system. IMO he makes an interesting case for this with his demonstration. He doesn’t really make any qualitative sound claims past this; in fact, he points out that the resistance diff between zip wire and his go-to cable is negligible. Interesting post. Got me thinking...
"limomangusLafayette's before Radio Shack.I used to go there when I was a kid early 60s.I work for HLDalis Whole sale dist.,They had everything, cables,tubes,Audio Equipment ,great place to work at for $40 a week...LOL"
I'm hearing you loud and amazingly clear, thanks to my Tibetan monk-meditated cables.
I send all my cables to an ancient temple in Tibet. The cables stay with monks for 3 weeks. The monks meditate and pray with the cables. This makes a HUGE difference in sound quality and it also offers me a more deeply emotional - dare I say existentially profound - connection with my cables. Which results in ultimate sound. It’s a intensely spiritual experience and all you nay-sayers should try it. It may save you.
Lafayette's before Radio Shack.I used to go there when I was a kid early 60s.I work for HLDalis Whole sale dist.,They had everything, cables,tubes,Audio Equipment ,great place to work at for $40 a week...LOL
They were definitely simpler times glupson. Back before we knew everything matters. Cables, jitter, isolation, rf. We were probably as happy with the sound back then as we are now. I ambiance driving the nicest cars from the 70s compared to today’s cars. Yet we were happy with them at the time. Homes had kitchens that were separated from the the living room, now we have open concept. Not many people had or would have considered a separate audio room, home theater room, etc.
Grover Huffman turned exclusively to cable manufacturing after a career in photography. He found manufacturing electronics and speakers too time consuming/expensive relatively speaking to cable manufacturing. He's been cable manufacturing since 2000.
So typical how many audio lovers inevitably want to inflict their views as absolute science. We can all learn from each other and respect each other’s successes...it doesn’t need to be divisive. We all have different sensibilities about what we want to achieve in our systems. There is no one size fits all folks. Audio myopathy is a serious disease of the inexperienced and the pseudo intellectual measurement cognoscenti.
Radio Shack used to be the place to go to for stereo equipment back in the day. I guess there’s no need to evolve from those days, it made noise, right? Lol.
djones512,695 posts08-02-2020 6:58pmI use the power and USB cable that came with my integrated amp. They were right there in the box I figured why waste them? I use the power cable that came with my streamer and ethernet Cat 6a not sure the name call it brand X. I don’t use any XLR or RCA cables though I did use some XLR from Benchmark at one time. Everything works, is that amazing or what!
I don’t doubt that your system sounds good. Having a integrated amplifier and a CD/streamer/DAC utilizing a USB can eliminate XLR/RCA’s from the system unless you are using a separate subwoofer. It’s a path to the least resistance. Good for you. A long time ago, I use to have an integrated amplifier. Times have changed and integrated amplifiers are making a strong comeback. I still prefer separates because I get to use the best of both worlds. Tube and solid state combined (preamp which is tube and power amp which is solid state). My system use to be all tube. I’m sure receivers will come back strong in the near future especially since the new generation is not as much into quality sound. Here is a flash from the past. Remember when Apple came up with the iPod? How many of us HiFi freaks hated anything to do with it. When Wadia came up with Digital 170IT we all acted like a bunch of school girls and jumped all over the iPod when we bought the Wadia docking station. Funny how things turn out. Hey, definitely enjoy your system. You seem very happy and at the end of the day, that’s what counts. Happy listening 😀
Maybe the military is secretly funding cable research in order to turn audiophiles into a crack fighting unit using all those unmeasurable qualities of wire to control minds.
Military research scientist, military Avionics Sensor Systems Specialist , MS, Defense and Strategic Studies, aeronautical engineering, mathematical statistics and operations research, worked on the development team for the F-16 fighter jet and A-10 bomber.
I use the power and USB cable that came with my integrated amp. They were right there in the box I figured why waste them? I use the power cable that came with my streamer and ethernet Cat 6a not sure the name call it brand X. I don’t use any XLR or RCA cables though I did use some XLR from Benchmark at one time. Everything works, is that amazing or what!
Not all systems work with Shunyata conditioner or power wires. I use to have Jeff Rowland Model 12 Monoblock amplifiers with Cardis wiring and the Shunyata Hydra worked great. I had a lot of compliments from Doug Wilson himself who is a tube guy. Audio Research is his favorite brand. On the other hand, it does not work well with Cary Audio CAD805 AE (Anniversary Edition) Monoblocks. Mind you these amplifiers were not plugged into the Shunyata Hydra. They had their own dedicated lines. The preamps, CD Players, turntable was. That’s why I said what I said in the other thread. I’m currently using Chord Monoblock amplifiers with a Cary Audio SLP05 with the Ultimate upgrade but I’m currently using a Richard Gray 1200 and a PS Audio line conditioner. Speakers are Wilson Audio Maxx3. Turntable is Clearaudio Reference with a Clearaudio Goldfinger Statement Cartridge. Cables are Straightwire Crescendo. Another success with my system. When you can listen to your system for 4-8 hours and not feel fatigue, you did something right with your system. I have a question for all the naysayers. What XLR/RCA’s, speaker cable, and or power cable are you using? Are you using these with your audio system? Please see attachment; https://www.amazon.com/C2G-40464-Value-Stereo-Meters/dp/B0019MGITK/ref=asc_df_B0019MGITK/?tag=hyprod...
That’s proof how to spend a lot of money for questionable results. I own $800 cables bought used at half the cost. I only own a monster power conditioner. I do have two 20 amp circuits for my audio room. Anything above that I don’t need it.
My experience back in the early 80s was upgrading from zip cord to AudioSource speaker cable with braided flat small multi-conductor wiring. It was revelatory. Steakster - MasterBuilt Ultra is based on exotic formulation and assembly techniques developed for information transmission systems by aerospace engineers. Numerous high profile organizations, both government and private, utilize this design for mission critical applications. MasterBuilt Audio is the only company licensed to utilize this technology for commercial audio use. I have been a cable beta tester for a boutique manufacturer for over 2 decades. His speaker wire has only undergone about 4 or 5 changes in that time while his IC cables required at least 200 designs to get to his Empress and Pharoah line. I don't know if they would pass noise or filter highs. I just know that music is unaffected by the cable. They are patented air core insulated design without braiding and without individual conductor shielding. The design blocks noise though. See
http://www.groverhuffman.com/ I haven't compared them to MasterBuilt, but the price difference is about 50X less expensive. We have compared them to many high end cables costing 3X to 20X more expensive. His Pharoahs are neutral sounding, without compression, without attenuation of any frequencies and extremely open sounding.
Mahgister gets it! Pertinent to this topic, I have been finalizing my cables for my current rig over the last year. I’ve learned to take my time and evaluate slowly and under various states of mind. My history with high end audio is fairly long and excessive. Entry level to uber expensive and all points in between. A couple of years ago I decided to re set things again without the influence of outside noise, i.e...magazines, online chatter or dealers. I have heard and lived with enough gear over the years to have a handle on what I need to be happy, so....I set a reasonable budget and attempted to bring a dynamic live sound to my den. Variables were to be few hence simplicity was to be the rule. At the heart would be my Krell Vanguard Digital Integrated Amp. So musical and full bodied with great extension. For a source, I wanted something reliable and capable of doing justice to my vast collection of CD’s and SACD’s. I chose the Yamaha CD S2100...neutral, accurate tone with great dynamic range and detail/extension. Most critical was my choice of loudspeakers. I wanted dynamics and headroom that could give me Club level sound while conveying accurate tone and musical expression. I chose JBL 4429’s mostly by gut instinct and a chance look at a MUSIC DIRECT catalogue. Most of my audiophile speakers over the years always seemed to be less than realistic sounding in the midrange and dynamics department. With a 60 day return option I figured why not try something different! Luckily, they won my heart fairly quickly with their buttery smooth dynamic midrange and extension. The “Vinyl “ sound was finally there, but with CD’s...hard to achieve these days. Last would be cables. Based on previous successes with certain designs, I wanted to get the power right first, so I went with a Transparent Gen 5 reference for my Yamaha to give my source the best power I could. My Krell has fairly good power regulation to begin with so I tried a few different PC’s and wound up with Anticables level 3 cord directly into the wall (it has its own filter). Cables have just recently settled out to being Anticables level 3 speaker cables with MIT Magnum Jumpers. Interconnects are Transparent Gen 5 Super Balanced interconnects, edging out the Anticables level 3 and 4 XLR’s. Stands for the JBL 4429’s are from Deer Creek Audio...an absolute must for these large bookshelf model monitors. Overall, the performance puts me in the venue with my favorite artists and does so while being faithful to the tone, dynamics and soundstaging inherent on the CD’s.
I was raised on Julian Hirsch "wire is wire", absolutely convinced for a good 20 years that my freebie patch cords were as good as it gets. Until one day I brought one of my freebie patch cords into a store and the owner let me compare side by side with something from XLO costing about $75. Which to me at the time seemed an absolutely insane amount of money.
After listening to his very fine rig with the XLO I paused the player and plugged in my patch cord.
Instantly it sounded like I had broken his stereo. It sounded just awful. I was convinced it was going to be hard to hear any difference and there I was not even making it back to the chair and the difference was hitting me upside the head like a two by four.
Anyone who's listening skills are so dismal and their brain so defective they still want to argue this, they simply need to find another hobby. Because they suck at this one!
The common denominator between the naysayer and the cables afficionados are for Jason their relation to numbers mesurements, positive for the naysayers, negative for the audiophile snake oil buyers... Simple measurement dont tell all the story... Life is not so easy my friend....
This is ridiculously simplistic, sorry...
The cables problem is also linked to individual listening experience history, and to some audio system particular characteristics with too much parameters involved and non linearly measurable like room acoustics, mechanical resonance problems, and the general noise floor of the house and of the audio system...
«Science is too much difficult to be understood by scientists only» -Groucho Marx
« We need balls and heart and not only brain» -Harpo Marx
« History of science IS Science» - Goethe (uppercases are mine)
... naysayers are almost always engineers, either professionally or via years of hands-on experience in labs, studios, etc. They understand intrinsically the scientific method as well as bias. They can also read scopes ...
You might want to read more carefully. While many cable deniers claim to be engineers, their renderings here often reveal that they’re not. And many who clamor for scientific double-blind testing, for example, are often exposed here as having no idea about how such testing is properly conducted. Unable to control their anger, some have even been banned from the group.
I think you are mistaken to believe that anyone can "understand intrinsically" scientific method and bias. Knowing how to implement the scientific method is not intrinsic at all, but a learned skill. Part of that skill is understanding the many ways in which research can be compromised, regardless of the diligence of the scientist. It is very easy to get things wrong, it takes a lot of vigilance to get things right.
Jason, your powers of observation seem to be severely lacking if you believe that to be true. Obviously you are in your own camp two with your ability to observe. There could be another camp you missed.. Those ones look at things they can’t afford like lambos, and decide they have no redeeming value, not because of any scientific reasoning, only because they want to justify not spending. I suppose you could go on and on based on what one or two people claim or Dosnt claim, or make up categories based on your own apparent bias. Anyone reading just this thread will see many disaparities in your statement.Mb which is why most people who don’t deny there are differences will say you just have to listen. And because one cable works well in one system is not a guarantee it will match well and sound as good with a different set of components.
I've noticed a statistically significant difference in the 2 cable camps:
1. naysayers are almost always engineers, either professionally or via years of hands-on experience in labs, studios, etc. They understand intrinsically the scientific method as well as bias. They can also read scopes.
2.. "audiophile cable" supporters are rarely technical and have no formal training in engineering or the technical sciences, e.g., doctors, lawyers, accountants, business persons, and other generally hard workers that didn't have to go thru the pain of 30-page-long mathematics equations. They may be able to argue the merits of any amendment or perform a cardiac bypass but you ask them to program the clock on a VCR and you've essentially found their kryptonite.
The featured test has nothing to do with audio. It measures a relative inductance of the tested cables while dealing with ~100Mhz frequency and ~500uV signal level. Please make a few tight coils (around a pencil?) on the first tested cable (near the receiver input) and you will see a significant drop of the signal level due to a high-frequency choke you just created. My experience is clear: cables do matter but they also never act alone. Do you want to hear a cable difference? Use two clearly different sounding tracks (from two different recording studios) and two different audio cables to compare using a good-quality A/B switch. There is a good chance they will sound different, but not necessarily on both of those recordings.
Cables do matter.. Only price does little on how good the cable is or how they perform.. People are fooled all the time thinking the more you spend the better it is (for the most part).. Its the design of the cable that matters most.. Start with Mogami cables and use them as a reference when trying to upgrade.. Check out their measurements.. Follow their path..
I have wondered for a while now why a discussion on any form of digital media is peppered with rude, condescending comments. Subject is irrelevant. Do people have nothing better to do?
Hey, some guys who get it.lol. Don’t let anyone tell you what you hear. Listen and decide for yourself. We all have varied tastes, decide on your own favorite flavor.
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