I know the point of diminishing returns is different for everyone, probably dependent on their inclme, how much importance they place on the stereo, and to exactly what sound they will be happy with.
In these times (not pandemic but rather trickle down tech) where I feel like you are able to get more for your money, what price point do you feel you need to be at to achieve audio nirvana?
I was researching the absolute least expensive speakers and found that the Elac Debut 2.0 B6.2, the Wharfedale Diamond 225, Triangle Borea BR03 are a few that get excellent reviews and can be had for around $500 or less and it got me thinking...
At $1000 the Whatfedale Evo 4.2 looks very compelling (I loved the Evo 4.4 at RMAF last year)...
At $2000 there seems to be some seriously stiff completion...
Just a fun discussion regarding what you think are outstanding deals sound wise, what the speakers are and how much they cost. No “well such is $10,000 and it competes with $100,000 speakers”. I’m talking for the average person who isn’t making $100,000 a year. I’m talking $5,000 or less, less is better, much better. I understand that for some, $5,000 speakers are like $500 speakers to others, no need to point out the obvious.
What I do want to know is speakers that you feel punch waaay above their price point and at what price (the lower The better) you feel like diminishing returns comes into play. Also, lets try not to make this a Tekton DI conversation because it looks like they are the answer to this question at $3500; lets get some others in here that we may not know about.
If this thread sounds dumb to you, sorry, and just move on please!
Another one in question for me would be the SB Acoustics Satori Ara kit...
I bought 3 years ago a pair of Mission Cyrus 781 speakers 80 bucks...My electronic repairman(very competent one) said to me that one of the speakers was more beaten and less powerful than the other....I listen to them and I see that with my own ears... I phone back the seller and well, he was sorry to hear that, and does not know about that problem before the sale etc... Being very honest, he lowered the price half and at 40 bucks I bought them....
I adjusted the balance and position to compensate but you know a broken speakers is a broken one...
But miracles happen, after 2 years I discovered one day that the 2 speakers were equal in power now....I dont know why, perhaps some catalytic resurrection coming from my many "golden plates" located near the electronics.... :) I never listen to my many headphones now....
But These British speakers indeed punch way over their price (800 bucks) in quality.... Non fatiguing highs with plenty of details, mids velvety, their bass sounds are clear and I listen to them with my body....For a 7 inches bass drivers this is more than very good....I modify them my way and now to upgrade them will cost me many thousand dollars...( I sold a subwoofer because with these bass notes I dont need one, I dont listen metal ,nor movie music ).
The sound is immersive( nearfield) or out of the speakers (in regular listening distance) not related to them filling the room with no real defect at all... Better speakers exist but the price is not 40 bucks, more many thousands, i know it because in their own way they top my Old Tannoy dual gold, which I sold 800 bucks after 40 years of use....The Tannoy were too big for my desk....
But last word, speakers could not deliver optimal good sound at any price without a room treatment, a passive one and an active one....If I look the photos in the virtual section almost nobody use active room treatment.... And those that use a passive one dont feel the necessity to use a good active treatment.... Add to that a minimalistic or a nonexistent electrical house grid treatment, and except for a minimalistic resonance and vibrations controls, almost all invest in the Electronic Components and never address rightfully the triple embeddings problem...
Then it is not surprizing that most people are sure that Hi-Fi S.Q. is directly linked to the price scale.... That is a myth....A myth that no reviewers can debunk really once and for all because they will lost their sponsors in the E.C. industry....
The brand new Vandersteen 2 Sig mk3 should be on anyone's list under 3500. He rebuilt the crossover and is using a top circuit board along with the same midrange that's in my Quatro's, lol. He made a bunch of other changes. I was told that these are a large upgrade, hence the new designation. Mate that with an all in one integrated that streams etc... and what a system you have.
BTW, if you use Vandy subs they are designed to take on the sound of your main amp for the bass where they are crossed over>. It will also free up your main speakers, so that you won't drive them too hard and they too will sound better. I've never felt the 3's needed subs, but I know many want more bass and it does help the sound of the 3's.
Here on June 4 the wind has probably died off for this thread. Nonetheless, I can't resist suggesting used Vandersteen 3A Signatures, often appearing for under $2k. I've long considered this buy among the best in sound for the money. Then pair them with a pair of used Vandy 2wq subs, also, I believe, well under $2k, and you will have sound that you can't believe for the money that will probably keep a smile on your face, or rather in your heart, for a good while.
@coltrane1 , I agree, something in the $10k range for total system is where things start to sound really good. I do think though that many people overlook room treatments and that a well treated room with $4,000 in components will sound better than a room with zero treatments and $8,000 in components
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned used apogee's, lot of bang for the buck. I got a mint pair of duetta 2's for $1500 with factory packaging. They sound great.
At 50 bucks used, the top of the british line Mission, the Cyrus 781+ a passively and actively modified acoustic room by my homemade methods, gives me in my 2 listening position (regular and nearfield) a sound so good that even if an upgrade would give me a better sound, the increase in money invested would be out of scale....
I sold my 4 Tannoy Dual Gold 800 hundred dollars for each pair few years ago, I had pay them 400 dollars in 1975....They were very good but not better than the Mission and too big for my desk....
In my experience the acoustic treatments, the passive one and the generally unacknowledged active one, are the keys to audio experience, not so much the speakers, especially if you play with low price speakers around 1000 dollars new...
I don’t think $2k will get you there. Heck, you’ll spend $2k for a turntable and cartridge alone. $10k would be a better amount. I’ve $2k in speakers, $1500 in a turntable, another $2k in a dac, $1k in a tube amp, $1k in a tube preamp, $1k in a solid state amp. And all of my gear was bought used...all of it. So if bought new I’d say double my investment price. So yeah, $10k at minimum in used gear to have an awfully decent system. BTW, I use Martin Logan Theos speakers, which are fairly easy to drive, and are fairly revealing. Best!
The great thing about shopping for speakers is that it’s so subjective (it’s all in your head, you know). All you have to do is discover what you like. That said, the last time I was auditioning speakers I thought Wharfedale beat Elac and others. I pretty sure that Kevlar cone Material They use is a big reason. So if you’re lucky enough to be able to audition them, have at it. That said, I ended up with Magnepan .7s and if you can hear the LRS, do.
Speaking of Wharfedale 225's. Would they be a good PC desktop speaker? I have Audioengine A5's I am getting a little tired of. Got the space for them in my office.
For less expensive, very high end speaker, I love the small box Vandersteen's with the carbon tweeter. I heard it scale with an Ayre AX5/20 (my integrated) as well as rock out with the Belles Aries integrated. It's just an amazing speaker.
The ET panel is always near the top of that list for me. I've never heard it sound anything but great. When matched properly and set up properly, you can achieve amazing results from 60hz on up.
I felt my Vandy Treo's were an amazing value for true high end sound.
I think a great speaker will be one that you can match TOP electronics with and you keep hearing a marked difference. YMMV
I remember that one of Audio Solutions Figaro models impressed me a lot at an audio show. They cost $5000 but sounded very good. TAS just tested a pricier model and also commented that they are a very good value for money.
Cool @b_limo. If you live 150 or more miles from an ET dealer, you can buy the LFT-8b factory-directly with free shipping.
Regarding durability, the Linear Field Transducer (LFT) has been in production for over 30 years, unchanged! That midrange driver (two used in the LFT-8b) is built to a very high standard, far superior imo to those of Magnepan (no offense Maggies owners, of which I am one).
The ribbon tweeter is used only from 10kHz up, no need to worry about burning it up. The limiting element of the speaker is it's 8" sealed woofer (180Hz down), but that can be ameliorated with the use of a sub or four.
As for resale, you rarely see the LFT-8b for sale. It's a keeper! Sort of a modern day Quad ESL (lack of coloration, transparency), but able to play much louder. I'm not alone in considering the LFT-8b the current greatest value in loudspeakers.
@ b_limo
Never owned a pair of Wharfedales before now.
I do think the Evo 4.3 are excellent for the price and I felt they were the better match for my room size than the 4.4. If you have the room size go for the 4.4. Im glad I went with the 4.3 but Im going to add a sub x2 later.
If I didnt like them I could send them back and go with the Focal Arias or see if they finally had the Tannoy Revolution's back in stock and exchange it for them. Cant say that these are better than those, but we like them so much they're here to stay.
I know there are speakers that could blow these away but not at this price.
The Evos borrow a lot from Wharfedales
Elysian
series which were out of my price range.
Fair Enough, just depends on where/how you define “diminishing returns”. To restate my point, the Vandy 2 is a great value and reaching for the newest iteration within your budget will be rewarded even if the returns are diminishing.
Yes, brand new from Richard. But as we are talking diminishing returns, and although I’m sure they are great for the money, even I would have a hard time making that purchase when I bought my Sig I’s for $600, or, $2,700 less than the III’s.
They, and their improvements, would have to awfully darn good to cover that gap in cost.
Interestingly, I first bought a pair of the 1C’s (later versions) in great shape used for $325 shipped. I knew I liked the sound so much after a very short time of listening, I found and bought my 2CE Sig I’s literally 2 months later, as I desired ‘more’. I still have the 1C’s, and use them for my rears in HT mode. So, for basically $900 have two pair of pretty darn good speakers.
The newest iterations of both would cost $4,780, PLUS tax and shipping.
I believe I did well, and came in well beneath any ‘diminishing return’ anxiety following my purchase(s).
I’m kinda surprised no one has mentioned KLH, a company that seems to be returning from the dead. I heard the Kendall at a stereo store and was very impressed, especially as I was flipping between them and a pair of Harbeths. The KLH Kendall’s held their own at about a third of the price. $1300 a pair. As soon as I get the chance, I’d like to audition the Albany, their sealed bookshelf model.
@bdp24 , I had actually looked them up awhile back based on your suggesting them in a totally different thread! Your suggestions are not falling on deaf ears my friend 🙂. The issue I have with them, and most planars is shipping, resale and durability.
👍👍 on the LRS though. I could get those local and new and for the $ probably will someday.
The Magnepan VLR signature is also a great recommendation! I’ve heard great review about them. So many great suggestions here. Apart from aesthetics, I’m not sure that there’s much sense in spending over $5k.
@tomic601 No, not Peloton. If your response / question wasn't in jest (which, btw, is apropos and funny), look up the usage / application from psychology... with respect hedonic adaptation.
“DIY is the way to go if you want the most for your money“
@mijostyn,
I disagree with this notion. Fortunately there are plenty of in-expensive and crazy good (performance) options across the board nowadays.
Unless you want to satisfy the spirit of ‘inventor’ within you, I see no reason to build speakers that plays such a critical role in how your system going to voiced.
At the end of the day, DIY speakers with all the troubles of finding drivers, crossover parts, cabinetry and hours spent in testing ....well they are going to appear and perform like someone built them in their garage. That’s just my two cents (no offense).
The title of OP’s thread...diminishing returns, try and re-sell DIY stuff (speakers or cables) you will be lucky if you can recoup the cost of the parts.
Very true about the ET LFT-8b, @tomic601. But for whatever reason, no matter how many times they are mentioned, people just like the OP continue to ignore them. I give up! ;-)
Plus, as he was mentioning $500 loudspeakers, I didn’t want to suggest a $2499/pr model. Another planar to consider, assuming you have at least 3’ minimum (5’ better) to sacrifice behind them, is the $650/pr (plus shipping) Magnepan LRS, with one to four subs.
I would take either of the above before a lot of far more expensive speakers, but I’m a planar enthusiasts. Not everyone is. Planars are like Country music or Opera: you either love ’em, or you don't.
Trickledown and smart frugal but better sounding innovation is alive at Vandersteen since 1977 the latest model II is even better, quarter million sold :-) how fun
iF we are limiting this to speakers we have actually heard at some length then I would certainly vote for the 225 and excellent speaker, I prefer the various LS3 variants to the LS-50, the KEF101, Linn KAN are both Fantastic values used. IF you want to rock in a small cabinet then LINN Sarah 3 is amazing. Finally surprised @bdp24 missed promotion of the Eminent Tech planers- a fantastic value if you have the room !!! a hidden gem that gets you the Vandersteen Carbon teeeter in a coaxial package is the Vandersteen VLR Signature for $3,500 add sound anchor stands and a sub 3 and you have a world beater... fun time, lots of great speakers :-)
I think you would be hard pressed to get any other speaker the quality of the 2CE’s Sig I’s for that little
Vandersteen model 2 is, IMO, an all-time best value in high end audio. Get the most recent iteration you can afford (it is frequently upgraded). I owned the 2Ce Sig II first iteration. This was upgraded once or twice without a new name designation (one of these added the "tri-woven" midrange driver) but there is now a 2Ce Sig III.
DIY is the way to go if you want the most for your money. There are a huge number of excellent drivers out there. I would do a 2 way open baffle (plate) speaker and cross to a sub woofer at 125 hz. Use a 6" mid range woofer and a dome tweeter. Cross at 12 db/oct with 6db down point at around 2500 Hz you can find schematics for cross overs on line or design it yourself. The equations are simple. The trick is finding drivers that will cover those ranges with about the same sensitivity. You will pobably have to pad one of the drivers a little. I would use a potentiometer. adjust it till the response is flat, check the resistance and replace it with a high quality resistor. I made such a system for a friend of mine who has muscular dystrophy. He is a music teacher and almost totally paralyzed. He has a van he drives with joy sticks! I used Corian and MDF for the plates and Focal drivers. They do not sell individual drivers any more. The subs were 12" Dayton Titanic 3's in Corian enclosures. We used a TACT preamp and amp for the plates and a QSC amp on the sub woofers. The Tact provided the cross over. The plates hang from the ceiling with the subs below. I still get compliments on that system. The goal was to give him the best possible system for as little as possible and we beat the $8000 limit.
Kef Q150, especially when they were on sale half price for $300 couple weeks back. In my 3rd system they come close to my much higher priced ($2.2k msrp) Spendor SA1’s, just narrowly getting edged out but I rotate them in for variety.
Wharfedale EVO 40s, used. Best they ever made. Add a small sub or two and you're still under original retail. Gorgeous rosewood finish, superb decoupling plinth and structure. Simply flawless and a giveaway after company sold to China and this EVO series discontinued. Diamond series are a tinny knockoff, aimed at mass market and home theater.
Just for the record, I’m not asking advice on which speakers I should buy, just wanted to get a thread where a bunch of good “bang for the buck” speakers are provided. Just for fun.
And Kenjit, this list is small. I go through quite a few speakers. I kind of have a problem; I’m a bit speaker crazy where as your just crazy! You’re more than welcome to stop by though whenever they give you a pass and let you out of the looney bin 😁
@b_limo youll never get to hear all these speakers and even if you did youd never hear them at the same time and be able to decide. Chances are youd never be happy with any of them. You are on the speaker merry go round. What you need is a master tuner such as myself to do a visit and figure out why your system sounds horrible. Find yourself a good speaker tuner. You obviously need help
@acoustacrat33, Steve Guttenberg raved about the Emotiva b1+ and I would have considered snagging some but they are sold out...
@audioguy55, good to head your experience with the 225; they were, and are still on my radar. The you tuber “Tharbamar” absolutely loves his. He did a slight mod where he increased ghe plate height on the bottoms ever so slightly... kind of An interesting tweak. The thing that held me back from buying them is the funky angles of the binding posts. I have some expensive speaker cables with fat spades and don’t know if I want to be bending them in strange angles in order to hook them up. How much are those posts angled in strange directions?? For $299 seems like a no brainer from the reviews, but again, those posts...
@phill55, I bet the Carbon 7’s are 👌. I reviewed the Carrera BE’s last month and felt like they were champs at $3500. I think I may feel the same way about the Carbon 7se mkii as well. I love the paper cones and silk tweeters. The Carbon 7se mkii has $800 worth of drivers stuffed into a $2500 speaker; thats great value. His series crossovers are great and I love his woodwork too. I may be able to try out a pair starting this weekend... we’ll see how things pan out.
@mickyb, I remember you touting those music culters 👍. Thanks for putting that unknown speaker in my mind. I agree about the Tylers too. I had a pair and loved them. Theres a pair of linbrook sigs for $3500 right now... those speakers must have close to $3000 worth of Seas Excel drivers in them... if I had $3500 right now I’d be taking a long hard look at those bad boys 👍
@jmun76, good to hear about the Evo 4.3’s! At around $900 right now, those would be close to if not the top of my list. Good to hear that you are liking them 🙂. The 4.4’s were my favorite “budget speaker last RMAF. I bet the 4.3’s are close. I spent quite a bit of time listening to the 4.4’s and actually went back 2 times... the white oak looks really nice too. Wharfedale is a company I have never owned a speaker from But that will probably change soon!
Everyone has given great examples and its good to hear from owners of these suggestions! The Triangle Borea BR03 is piquing my interest as well based on all of the glowing reviews but you can’t find a pair to buy right now...
Tons of great used speakers in the 2-3k range. Salk, music culture(beyond rare), dynaudio, tyler acoustics. One can find a speaker setup for any room size if one so desires. It’s a great time to purchase used. So many products available that would normally sell much faster.
Ill vouch for the Wharfdale EVO. I recently landed a pair of the EVO 4.3 for a little under $1000 from Audio Affair. They werent my first choice, but after waiting months for my first choice to get back in stock I went with the Wharfdales over a set of Focals. Couldnt be happier with the sound in my simple and modest system. The only other components are an OPPO 105 and an Arcam SA20 integrated. Id at least give the Evo's a test drive if you have the chance.
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