Dollar for dollar through most typical loud speakers; high quality tube amplifying devices will more likely distort frequency response more than high quality solid state amplifying devices will. |
Actually (SS=skim milk/Toobs=whole milk) Yes skim milk is better for you but whole milk taste a lot better! ;?) |
Healthy skim milk is pretty common american joke. |
Why would you call tubes as skim milk? Just because it is healthy?
:-) |
Lean Cuisine vs Porterhouse steak. |
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"Actually Mapman this is not entirely true."
How many things are when it comes to good sound?
I'll agree avoiding clipping altogether is always a good goal. Things will still not sound the same but if things are done even halfway well otherwise you are where you want to be to start. Otherwise, you are in a very grey place that you would be well advised to get out of before anything else truly matters. |
^^ Actually Mapman this is not entirely true.
Because tubes usually are more linear you can often build lower distortion circuit with them- and often without feedback. That is a lot harder to do with semiconductors!
Most power transistors incorporate a non-linear capacitive aspect into the junction of the device that is part of the price of building the junction in the device. The capacitive aspect is magnified by the amount of current put through the device, and in case some don't know it, current is a big deal with semiconductors. This capacitive aspect contributes to higher ordered harmonic distortion and is part of the semiconductor signature that is very hard to eliminate! Some semiconductors take advantage of this capacitance- for example most modern FM radios are tuned by the use of a varactor diode, which changes capacitance as the voltage applied to it changes.
Tubes have a similar capacitance but it is far less significant, lacking the non-linear aspect and mostly is an interaction between the input capacitance and the source driving the tube and is known as Miller Effect; IOW can affect bandwidth if not managed.
Further, distortion at clipping can play a much bigger role in the sound of many stereos than you suggest. Musical transients are where the action is- and if for whatever reason the amp is forced into clipping for an instant it can have audible effects. There are a number of threads on this forum asking about the difference between tube and transistor power as for some reason tube power seems to be more profound than transistor power.
The reason for this is how the two distort- when a transistor amp clips its instantaneously audible- when a tube amps clips it may not be audible until the amp is clipping fairly hard. Instead, it will make more higher ordered harmonics that interacts with the human ear/brain system in a way that will make the sound seem to be louder than it really is.
In a nutshell this makes the tube amp seem more powerful than a transistor amp of the same power as the outright clipping of the transistor amp seems to describe a limit that the tube amp does not seem to have. Its important to understand that this has a lot to do with how we perceive loudness and that the tubes play into that in a way that transistors don't.
The difference of course is revealed as soon as you put a sound pressure meter in the room- then it will be seen that both amps are playing at the same volume.
Anyway, the result of this is that the common wisdom is that if using a transistor amp you need a lot more power to avoid audible clipping.
But I agree, avoiding clipping altogether is preferable :) |
All depends on the system built around them. Tubes or transistors alone can't make any sound.
The best of both tend to sound more similar than different at least when not distorting. Its when they distort that things become different, but we wouldn't want any of that now in any case would we? |
In chef terms:
lean chicken salad or soup with greens (nutritious vitamines)
vs.
Texas Roadhouse steak dinner -- Fort Worth Ribeye with mushrooms and salad (STRENGTH!).
make ur pick |
"Stereophile
Sounds Like? An Audio Glossary
J. Gordon Holt, July 1993"
..."solid state sound That combination of attributes common to most solid-state amplifying devices: deep, tight bass, a slightly withdrawn brightness range, and crisply detailed highs."
..."tube sound, tubey That combination of audible qualities which typifies components that use tubes for amplification: Richness and warmth, an excess of midbass, a deficiency of deep bass, outstanding rendition of depth, forward and bright, with a softly sweet high end."
! Moderators, How about making this a sticky?:
http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/bbs/stereophile_audio-glossary.html |
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Good words of wisdom John |
Hi John, yes, it's a work in progresse, starting from scratch 2012 is over whelming by way of financial part of it all, cable's are good to go, outlet's are good to go, amp is, getting to tube's ect... speaker's, you know, this take's a while, then you can buy and sale and get half your money back and build away, under my circumstance's, I'm doing very good, actually, better than I projected. |
It's a shame you can't listen for yourself Keith, as that is really the only way to know what you like best.
I have tried many Mullards, Amperex, Telefunkens, Siemens, as well as current production tubes from Psvane, Gold Lion, etc.
Just as you won't be able to tell what food you will like best by reading a description, the same goes for tubes, fuses, cables, and just about everything in audio. Also, a lot of it depends on synergy too. I have heard Mullard tubes sound "best" with some gear too.
Self experimentation is half the fun.
The journey IS the destination. ;) |
Hi John, No, I do not own the 10m yet, however, these are my must do bucket list for my tube cd-player, I have been spending money on outlet's currently that are exspensive too, I have heard many good thing's about the Amperex Bugle Boy tube's in general, I have researched and talked to many tube lover's for nearly two year's, as far as the 12ax7 tube, it's the same answer over and over, the 12ax7 mullard 10m is it if you can afford one and find it from a reputible dealer, alot of fakes out there. |
So are you currently using the Mullard 10M tubes or not Keith?
While I have not specifically heard the 10M, I have owned and still do own quite a few Mullard tubes. Very sweet and musical, but not resolving enough for me. They may work better with more resolving equipment. I prefer the Amperex Bugle Boy pinched waist 12AX7's. To each their own though. Cheers. |
I bought Gold Lion 12AX7 reissues from "thetubestore" with matched
and balanced sections for a fraction of whatever dealers want for exotica like the
Mullard 10ms, and they are simply great sounding 12AX7s for my tastes
anyway...I like NOS Mullards of course, and have a pair 6201s on their way from
Upscale as I was smitten by their price and gold pins (my trusty 4024s are still
fine and will be given a rest). I think that the success of New Sensor with their
KT120s and 150s, Gold Lion reissues, "Mullards," (my Burriss class A
guitar amp uses, as stock, Mullard reissue 12AX7s as the designer loves those
things), and other stuff is an interesting success story and unique in tube-
ville...I've never had one blow up (yet) and considering the volume of stuff they
crank out they seem to be making some great AFFORDABLE glass items, and I
hope they continue. |
I see, I need to look into this, amazon did not reveal the actual dealer you bought from? |
Amazon. Resistance is futile. $35 each. |
Jmcgrogan2, what is your like's for the 12au7 and 12ax7 tube's? |
Electroslacker, Thankyou, that was a comprehensive well said post, I like the old Roy orbison too, though I admitt, it's been a long time, I do not own any of his recording's any more, my mother played Roy alot, I was alway's fasinated by how good he sing's, your despription of the Gold Lion tubes sound's good to me,where did you get them? |
Audiolabyrinth, I'm not a big tube roller, so my perception may be narrow compared to others.
The Gold Lions replaced TungSol's in the line stage of the original VAC Avatar. I had been sniffing around the McIntosh offerings and noticed a pattern of users swapping out the factory tubes for the Lions, and a consensus of improvement. I was curious.
At first, I thought the top end sounded brittle, and I had lost some bass. This changed after just a few days of burn. The first new thing I noticed was a sustained organ note as a track faded out, when before it had gone to black.
Holistically, the sound seemed more liquid. Things moved in and out of the sound-scape with a sense of holding a water balloon instead of a basketball. The oddest thing was standing in front of the amp with speakers to the side and having a sense of much more music surrounding the speakers, instead of just projecting forward. Strange.
Specifically, on something like Roy Orbison singing, "Only the Lonely," the backup singers were clearly delineated by number and voice, which greatly increased the pleasure of the performance. I always thought the Janis Ian album, "Breaking Silence," was really good in terms of sound and craftsmanship, even though Janis's voice is soft. With the Gold Lions it becomes spectacularly good. Finally, I played trumpet, and the Empire Brass sound more metallic in the right way.
All this could be device/circuit dependent, so YMMV and all that, but this is kinda/sorta what I experienced. |
you are correct John, their is no best tube, these just get most votes as most liked, that's it, there you go, cheers. |
Audiolabyrinth, once again, I find your posts confusing. Are you currently using Mullard 10M tubes or not?
You claim they are 'musical bliss', and that they are the 'best money can buy', then you mention that those are the tubes that you "plan" to use.
Are you claiming they are the best (we all know that there is no best) from personal experience, or from what you have read on the internet?
Remember, just as with all things in audio, there are no absolutes, no "best".
Folks have their own personal favorites, just as they have their favorite music.
However, just as no one song can be dubbed the "best", no one tube can be labeled the "best" either. |
Electroslacker, tell me more about the Gold lion reissue's, that could be a cheaper alternative for me to want to listen to, and keep for good back up tube's, the mullard 10m tube's are very exspensive and hard to find, although that is what I have plan's to use in my cd-player. |
My experience has been that tubes are just more musical and pleasing to listen to. I have owned a lot of both. My Exemplar Exception integrated contains the best of both. Pre-section with tubes and the amp section SS. Simply stunning. However, if I had to pick one and live with it I would go TUBE AUDIO. |
Electroslacker, I do not know if you would want to buy the Mullard 10 military 12ax7 nos tube, it's rare and known as the very best money can buy, the going rate is $500.00!, and the 12au7 10m nos I believe is around $250.00!, very musical,warm, incredible resolution, great bass,said to last 10,000 hrs |
Tube sound is like having sex with a whole bunch of different really hot looking women because each output tube has it's own sound characteristic and then how that tube is utilized (whether its single ended triode, single ended pentode, push pull, ultralinear, etc.) makes for a different sound as well...lastly, the brand of tube used - whether they are NOS tubes or current tubes makes a sonic difference as well. So there are lots of variables just like there are lots of different women, but all tube gear sounds great, just like every hot woman looks great.
SS is like not having a date and taking matters into your own hands.
Conclusion: tubes are just more fun and have a lot more going for them |
Audiolabyrinth, thanks (I think.) This is one of the joys of tubes for an audiophile...anticipation and interaction, without breaking the bank or going snake oil. I can look forward to hearing the Mullards, and there's three 12AU7 tubes in the circuit I am beginning to research...Mullards or Gold Lions? To me, there is a bliss in the right tube deployment that I've never heard in SS, although I've owned Perreaux, McCormack, and Classe, and auditioned Levinson and Pass. |
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there's certainly addiction to finding better sounding tubes (or ubes or toobz) all the time especially for those using tube power monsters such as VTL MB450 with over a dozen of tubes per channel or same with Atmasphere ones. the more toyz u buy, the more happier you're gonna b regardless of tube vs. ube vs. solid state becoz we can't kill our childish past completely no matter how old we r. the audio industry is certainly helping us to achieve our childish endeavors as it meant to b. |
The gentleman that is useing the Gold Lion 12AX7's, better never try the Mullard 12AX7 10M NOS tube, this is musical bliss. |
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Now that's interesting Pehare. I would have said that SS is dynamic. But, I'm remembering listing to the top of the line Wilson speakers, driving by an AR REF250 and a AR REF5SE and I have to tell you, I really stopped trying to determine the "sound" and was smiling all through the experience. Whenever I visit my favorite store in San Diego (Stereo Design) I always go in and listen to this system with my music and just smile. I forgot the SS vs Tube debates and just enjoyed.
I remember years ago (many, many years ago), when I was going to upgrade speakers to the then new Martin Logan Sequel IIs. at Robertson Audio in Los Angeles. They were setting up the room and while waiting, we took the opportunity to listen to the Top of the Line $35,000 turntable, Goldmond (spelling?) top $75,000 speakers driven by Mark Levinson 23.5 amps and that was the only real time other than the AR250 experience that I couldn't stop smiling. Wow!!
When the artist steps out of the speakers and the sound stage magically appears in front of you and you are "there", the smiles just don't end. I promised myself that when I could afford those 23.5 amps, I would get them. I made the same promise with the AR REF250 amps.
I don't care if it is tube or solid state. If the sound makes me remember and smile like that again, I'm there.
Of course, I do have to be able to afford them. sign.....
enjoy |
tubes are dynamic & make listening like an event whereas SS to me is like a reproduction which can be very good like Pass, of which I've owned a couple pieces. Thanks to my great guitar playing, record store owning buddy who swayed me towards tubes years ago (RIP Charlie). |
The best thing about Pass amps is the meter, and I've found they sound fine mostly...I like the "first watt" philosophy as really the tonal qualities are all that matter and it's up to you to decide how much horsepower you need. Pass is one of those companies that says something like "sounds close to tubes" often and makes me even more of a tube head...I also recently installed a pair of Gold Lion 12Ax7s in my amp and they're great, along with KT150s to add a "hot pickle" vibe. Fun... |
I just put two Gold Lion 12AX7's (reissue) in my modest Vac Avatar and spent the weekend basking in the sound they brought to album after album, revealing new attributes and making the performance glow with life. A $70 exercise, in the direct signal path, that is not possible with SS. I had been considering a big Mc452, but I now think something would be lost regardless of how good that is. Maybe because it would just sit there with no interaction except off/on.
The only Pass I've heard at home was the Aleph0 and matching Pre. I found it boring, but could easily have been a speaker mismatch. Then they exited my price range. |
The difference really seems to come down to distortion. Tubes make more harmonic distortion, but it tends to be of the lower orders (2nd, 3rd and 4th). These are considered musical by the human ear/brain system.
Transistors in general make less distortion, but what they make tends to be of the higher ordered harmonics (5th and up). These are considered amusical by the human ear/brain system.
The brain uses the higher ordered harmonics as loudness cues, so if they are distorted you will get two results: the sound pressure will seem louder (and IMO/IME a stereo should not sound loud even if it is) and it will sound brighter, due to the human ear's extreme sensitivity to these harmonics.
The ear/brain system translates all distortions into tonality. So it converts the distortions of tubes into things that audiophiles describe as 'warmth', 'lushness', etc.
Otherwise both amps might measure flat on the bench, but the ear has a tipping point and will often favor tonality generated by distortion over actual frequency response errors.
There are ways to design tube amps to not make so much of the lower ordered harmonics without creating more of the higher harmonics (fully differential and balanced is one way). There are also ways to design transistor amps to make less of the higher ordered harmonics, and ways to make them make more of the lower ordered harmonics (single-ended, such as some of the Nelson Pass 'First Watt' amplifiers).
Once you understand that its all about how the amps distort (and I don't mean clip or overload, rather at normal listening levels) then you are a long ways closer to understanding what the differences are between them.
One other important difference is how the two technologies overload. Tube amplifiers overload gently and resist making higher ordered harmonics until really pressed hard. Transistor amps make lots of higher ordered harmonics as soon as they are clipped- and so its usually a bad idea to overload them as the clipping is amusical and irritating.
This is why you can often get by with less power with a tube amp than with solid state. It is also why guitar players tend to prefer tube amplifiers, as they often overload the amplifier as part of their 'sound'. Some of the best-sounding transistor-based guitar amps (Sunn comes to mind) were built in such a way that they made a fair amount of lower ordered harmonics- which is why they have a certain following as they are 'richer'.
Since transistor power is considerably cheaper than tube power, to get around the clipping problem a solid state amp will have a lot more power. The clipping problem must be dealt with as music tends to have powerful transients which makes it difficult to reproduce without distortion. |
I had many discussions about shows using Pass labs amps with
Desmond from Pass Labs. In most situations they make different
mistakes. When you are not aware of the properties of each
tool you never will understand how the overall sound will be
build.
You cannot make a combination with expensive tools when they
do not fitt togheter. I can explain why they don't fitt.
Because the properties togheter will create the stage,
individual focus, sound, dynamic and resolution. In most
situation the overall sound is incomplete and the sound of the
cables do not match with the sound of an amp.
I read a review of the XS-150. They did the test with a Pass
labs XP-10. For the money it is a nice pre amp. But it lacks
in details en dynamics compared to the power amp. They also
used a Oppo as a source. You must be a F. mongol to use this
with the XS-150. Why? Because it misses the full palet in
colours of the mid. freq as the best sources. You never can
get a good insight of what the amp is capable of. This kind of
amature test you see all the time. At many shows sets are
based on political choices. This has nothing to do with audio
as it should be used. This makes me very irritated! |
Hi Phusis,
Your description mirrors mine over a 20 year period of hearing and using various amplifiers. As you acknowledge, to each their own. At CES last year I listened extensively to the Pass Labs XS stack driving Marteen Coltrame Sumpremes. Impressive in a hifi sort of way but rather flat/dull with no vibrancy, emotion or life.In contrast to my impression some listeners there thought the sound was fanstatic. Folks just hear things differently.
Charles, |
Bo1972 -- I prefer Pass labs over all other solid state. [...] To each his own, and many factors could have influenced my sonic impressions where Pass Labs gear was involved, but on several occasions with these amps, with varying other equipment, I've found the overall sound somewhat dull and a bit lifeless. Certainly highly resolved, easy on the ears and well-balanced, but often lacking a sense of "snap," immediacy and being ever so slightly too laid-back and easygoing; in a sense, too "hifi-ish." Haven't heard their latest .8 series, so I can't comment on those. |
Rleff, I like your sence of humor, got a good laugh. |
Nyaudio98 what do you think of all the expert opinions you have gotten thus far? |
I was gone away long long ime so me girl listen to (expensive) Arcam rcvr all dat ime.
well when i come home i tink hmmm, don't sound right, so i switch back to dem ubes and we watch some shows.
den she says (unprompted, dats important): "BOY, why does it sound so good??"
I go: "baby, it's dem ubes"
Rue story. |
Agree with Wolfy ... ube amps are more fun. Look at how much I have been obsessing about KT-150 ubes for my amp. And how often do ube amps blow bias resisters. I say go ube ... all the way. Good ight. |
Tubes do make it more of an occasion |
I agree. Ube's are fun. I like listening to my system with my ubes and roasting a marshmellow on an open gamma wave from a ube. I also buy old ubes and like to put them in to see them arc up and down the glass. It is like a science fiction movie in my own man cave. And then in the summer I go down in my room in my scivies and bask in the warm(maybe I should say real warm)wafting waves of heat pretending to be in an Russian sauna box. Ubes are killer fun. I have to go now and start drying my clothes on my ubes before I go to bed tonight. |
This thread seems to ignore the fact that tube amps are more fun. There is no question that good SS amps can, and do, sound fine or often great, but comparisons aside, you generally don't "Transistor Roll" to effect some tonal change because you feel like it...many don't feel like it anyway, and should stick to SS amps...my enjoyment of tube hifi is partly due to the fact that I can see the glow and mess with it for fun...although recent tube purchases are of tubes that don't glow as visibly so there's that, but I still have Mullard Flash for entertainment. SS amps just sit there doing their job invisibly, and except for meters (Pass...good idea) there's no tactile sign of life. Also, I think you can get to some great tone for less cash quicker with a good tube amp, but then I like fun. |
"What always amazes me is people buy exorbitantly priced tube gear, and the first thing they do is roll the tubes:)...like the designer got it wrong>"
Not that he got it wrong, just that the realities of modern production require readily available current production tubes, smaller boutique brands excepted. Some feel tubes from the heyday offer better quality. |
