Dedicated Line - Things to consider

Two dedicated lines are in! Breaking in.

Thanks to everyone who contributed and provided a sea of great info. 

@immatthewj thank you for taking the time to post the results of your comparison. I’m pretty much set on running 2 lines. I think that’s all I will ever need. Plenty of flexibility with that. 

@immatthewj , I wasn't attempting to single you out, apologies for that. I just look at this in a pretty linear way, electricity flowing downstream from the panel, even though that's not a true representation. I'm not an electrician, but have worked with them for 30+ years in residential construction. My biggest bit of electrical knowledge is that I have a good idea of how much I don't know.

I wasn't being disingenuous.  I don't work with this stuff enough to know a whole lot more than I need to be careful.  Since in the past I have always hooked up the outlet end before connecting to the panel, I tend to describe it in that manner.  But I realize, and agree with you, that the power to the outlet flows through the black wire from the panel to the outlet.  But correctly  thinking about and describing what one is doing would make for better understanding on both my part & to who I was trying to communicate it with. 

@jea48 , I watched Mike Holt's video on multi wire branch circuits. Considering that other conductors, grounds, etc, are required to be marked in some fashion when they aren't what they appear to be, why aren't neutral wires in a mwbc scenario required to be labeled as such? Strikes me as odd.

Thanks for your time.

@immatthewj , I wasn't attempting to single you out, apologies for that. I just look at this in a pretty linear way, electricity flowing downstream from the panel, even though that's not a true representation. I'm not an electrician, but have worked with them for 30+ years in residential construction. My biggest bit of electrical knowledge is that I have a good idea of how much I don't know.

Take care,

It's just semantics, but a lot of these posts would be easier to read if they were worded a little differently. Most professionals don't think of wiring as originating at an outlet in a room and going to the electrical panel, quite the opposite.

As a DIYer nonprofessional I apologize and I'll try to remember this in the future.

It's just semantics, but a lot of these posts would be easier to read if they were worded a little differently. Most professionals don't think of wiring as originating at an outlet in a room and going to the electrical panel, quite the opposite.

I got a good deal on the wire and one circuit was all I needed.

@toddalin  , I take it that you are in the "one circuit camp"?

We have two breaker boxes, the original, which is fully loaded with breakers, and a second added later that is closer to the street that has a few breakers in it. I ran 125 feet of 8-gauge multi-strand from the stereo location in the living room to that panel with a 20 amp breaker and put a 20/30 amp outlet on it inside my entertainment center. (My surge protector has a 20/30 amp plug.)

From the 20/30 amp outlet I ran the 8-gauge to a pair of hospital-grade outlets located just outside the entertainment center. The run is continuous and there are NO breaks in the lines between the various outlets. There is also a big ferrite bead over the wire where it comes out of the panel. Even the hospital grade outlets accepted the 8-gauge wire without problem.

This had the effect of removing "high-end hash" from my Yamaha Universal Player. It did less for my Oppo95, and I attribute this to a better power supply in the Oppo.

@immatthewj please let us know what you’ve heard as a result of the test when you get around to it

@audphile1  , since I can no longer edit my reply, I'll clarify a couple of things with a new reply.  This is not a biggy, but I previously referred to the "lateral & horizontal size of my soundstage" and I meant the lateral and vertical size.  When referring to the power cord of my SA10, I think I said a two blade outlet, and what I was actually referring to was the two blade INLET for the removable power cord on the SA10.  I mentioned this because, going to some of the threads I pasted above, the  3rd wire, the ground, was the point of some of the discussion.

I never could understand why you would need to separate the wires when they all come together for at least some distance to go into the main panel or sub panel. 

@invalid  , I won't attempt an answer; there are many  things including this related to electricity that I do not understand.  This might be worth asking JEA about.  A possible theory is maybe RF is like food poisoning.  A little bit is not good but a lot can kill you.  Remember, I did say "maybe." 

I never could understand why you would need to separate the wires when they all come together for at least some distance to go into the main panel or sub panel. 

@immatthewj please let us know what you’ve heard as a result of the test when you get around to it

@audphile1 , over the past couple of weeks I put in some sessions on the new dedicated circuits that I replaced the old "dedicated circuits" with. What I have is three lines of 12-2 going from the outlets in my listening room directly to my electrical panel which is also in my listening room.

The new circuits are all on the same leg. At the top of that leg is the washing machine which is never operating when I am listening, next is one of my old "dedicated circuits" and that breaker is tripped to ’off’’ and then my new circuits starting with ’1’ at the top, then ’2’ & ’3’ at the bottom.

The configuration that I had started with was: circuit 1 had my SLP-05/circuit 2 had my Cary V12 and my ancient M&K sub which came from M&K with a 2 blade nonremovable power line/circuit 3 was my Marantz SA10 which also came with a 2 blade receptacle and a removable 2 blade power cord.

As I typed previously, the way I would reconfigure would not be ideal. I turned breakers 1 & 2 ’off’ and used only 3 which is the last breaker in use on that leg. In lieu of buying two strips, I used a grounded 3 into 1 adapter plug and put my v12 on one end and my M&K on the other side, nothing in the middle. I don’t see why this should be and worse than a strip, and extra cord is actually eliminated. About 25 years ago a dealer in Filthadelphia (who was good at selling me stuff back in the days of wine & neurosis when I had more money than brains) sold me "The Promethean Audio Products Power Flo Power Conditioner." I used it sometimes and other times I didn’t. I never could tell if I thought I could hear a difference or not, therefore I often went by the theory that it was just something else in between my components and my previous "dedicated circuits." Even though I don’t trust it completely, I broke it out tonight to fill in as a second strip. It has six outlets, three on either side of the nonremovable grounded & braided power cord; I put the SA10 on the extreme left and the SLP-05 on the extreme right (not that that probably makes any difference).

I let the system warm up for nearly an hour while I made dinner and then dined, and then I started using the 3 circuit configuration described above. I first listened to a 4 song live promo the Cowboy Junkies had released when they were touring the Black Eyed Man CD because I like it and am familiar with it: the sound staging and the revealing detail. Then I listened to the Cowboy Junkies Analogue Productions "Trinity Sessions" SACD becuse this may be what I consider to be my sonically best CD and I have been listening to various digital pressings since 1993 or so.

Then I reconfigured to the 1 circuit system that I described above.

To be clear, I liked my system on 3 circuits. On a good night with the lights turned out and my eyes closed with a good source CD the lateral & horizontal size of the sound stage exceeds the boundaries of my smallish listening room; & that sound stage is filled with detail. This did not change for better or worse on 1 circuit. On 3 circuits (alluding to the two CDs I chose to do this "A/B") I have never felt that Ms. Timmins’ vocals were screechy or hard edged. Quite the opposite.

I was not predisposed to feeling that one way would be better than the other. However, I honestly believe that her voice was slightly softer sounding and slightly rounder sounding on 1 circuit. I also felt that the sparkle had slightly more sparkle.

Okay, sorry, but after all that, this is all I am going to say about the sonic comparison for the time being. I hate doing A/Bs because I don’t have the vocabulary to describe what I think I might be hearing and I don’t think my ears are good enough for this hobby. BUT, I do think that over an extended period of time spent listening, even though I consciously don’t think I am hearing a difference (unless it gets suddenly worse), I DO think that without consciously realizing it, I am, in fact, deriving more pleasure from my listening sessions.

Also there are other factors that may have had an effect on tonight’s comparison. The addition of the old power conditioner for the pre and the digital front end, for example, maybe it was making a difference but I never took the time to listen for it. Also, in some locations my three circuits are not routed with near the separation that Jea suggested they should be. I can fix that, but it will be a lot more work, starting in the attic (that will be the easy part) and then in the wall. (I spent so much time in that attic back in November, I don’t know how many times I said to myself, but out loud, "I don’t ever want to go up here again.") And I know what I need to do with the interior wall of my listening room, but I am not looking forward to doing it.

So for me, going forward, I’d like to put some more sessions in using one circuit, and then I’d like to repeat tonight’s test, but in reverse. I seem to better realize I am hearing changes when they get worse vs when they get better. Something else I would like to experiment with would be the power conditioner/strip from Fuhrman that I put a link to within one of those threads I pasted above. They are available from MD, and from the open box specials MD is always advertising, they must be very good about honoring their money back policy on returns. The reason I would like to try it is because it features a couple of inputs that are theoretically isolated for digital. ErikSquires seemed to like that one.

I still say that when you go the dedicated route that you should put at least two in. That will give you the option to experiment, and if you do or don’t do it yourself, I don’t think the labor should be much more for 2 vs 1. Also, I’d say to go to the thread that I pasted previously (this one would be the thread that I started) and read the replies by Jea that relate to how the Romex should ideally be routed.

After I play around some more, I’ll come back to this thread with updates.

Or not. LOL

Paul of PS Audio suggests a dedicated 10 gauge line for each audio component. In my case, that would be six separate 10 gauge copper romex lines feeding 6 individual outlets. I am thinking of doing it with a subpanel installed and a revamping of the ground too.

@whart .

Thanks for the kind words.

Best regards,

Jim

Will post updates. Planning do it in January/February. 

@immatthewj please let us know what you’ve heard as a result of the test when you get around to it

I will do that, @audphile1 , and let us know what you wind up doing as far as your dedicated circuit(s) go.

I actually hate doing sonic comparisons, because my ears are not good at the A/B thing. It seems like I immediately hear things when they get worse, but not so much when they get better (unless something was drastically & radically wrong). When things get better, I just seem to realize over a period of time that I am enjoying the listening experience more. (There have been some exceptions to that: I can think of a few equipment upgrades that I made that were almost like a slap in the face.)

Anyway, as far as the comparisons between my gear on three circuits vs one circuit, I started thinking about another variable that I would like to rule out of the equation first. And that variable would be the effects of the brand new Romex & whether or not it burns in (or breaks in) & whether or not sonic characteristics will change if & when that happens.

With that last para typed, I am going to give my system just a couple (or so) more sessions in its present configuration before I put the four pieces of gear that I am using all on one. That will give me a bit longer to try to understand what I am or am not hearing before I switch it around; and if the new wires do, in fact, need some running time to settle in, I’d like to make sure I have got that accomplished before attempting any sonic comparisons.

@immatthewj please let us know what you’ve heard as a result of the test when you get around to it

I am dedicated to dedicated.

That’s exactly what I’m hoping for - lower noise floor. And that is a huge improvement if that’s what the outcome will be.

@audphile1 , okay, so this is where some of the disagreement comes up, and I am not saying that I am in either camp (yet) as I just don’t have enough experience (yet) with doing the comparisons. To trim it down to a nutshell: there is the point of view that more than one dedicated circuit for the audio gear introduces RF because all have the neutral/ground bar in common. Electricity is not a strong subject for me, but if you are interested in more on that POV, in one of those links I pasted up above for you, MillerCarbon explains his thoughts on that particular area of the subject. Then there is the POV that if the lines are correctly segregated and if everything is done optimally at the service panel, RF won’t be a problem. In another link I pasted up above (this one was a question/topic that I started) Jea48 states that to be his POV and explains how to achieve that.

Again, I don’t know yet. But sort of where I was going with all of that is that when someone says that they have two or more circuits & no issues with RF, I think that it could be possible that they may have stuff going on that they don’t or won’t know about until they hear it without that stuff. But again, I honestly don’t know.

Going back up to your original question, installing two or more circuits would give you the option to experiment. And if it turns out that you wind up in the MC camp, you really are not out that much. You can trip the breaker(s) that you decide not to use and then you will have additional circuit or circuits available for something else or that you can move somewhere else to do something else by using junction/work boxes and buying some additional Romex. My own circuits started out terminating in one location, I later branched them to another location, and then later I put them in still another location. Most recently, I decided that all the moving around I did with them to get to where they are now was done less than ideally (from an ’audiophile perspective’) so I added three more circuits for ONLY the listening room  I am in now, and those 3 circuits are now direct from outlets to service panel. Meaning I now have 3 more circuits in two more locations (with 6 duplexes) in the rest of my house.

And I have been putting this test off long enough, so tonight after I turned my system (on 3 circuits) off I started looking around through my odds & ends, and I actually have what I need to get all my stuff on just one of my dedicated circuits. The stuff I will be using isn’t what I would consider ideal from an audiophile quality perspective, but maybe it will give me some clue as to how I feel about the subject, and lets say that I do hear improvement when I have my stuff all on one, then I can spend more & upgrade the stuff I am going to use to acheive the all on one circuit system.

@immatthewj 

Yes, universal agreement on the benefit of direct lines. Sure, beyond that, I am sure there is additional benefit to audiophile  grade wire, specifics of the hookups, increasing grounding… it goes on forever. I just tend to go one increment at a time. Basic direct lines is a must as a start.

That’s exactly what I’m hoping for - lower noise floor. And that is a huge improvement if that’s what the outcome will be.

@immatthewj Wrote:

I don’t know this to be an audio-fact, I am only surmising, but I suspect that it is possible that the effects of RF might not always be a detectable/audible hum or buzz. I think it might also produce a grain that you wouldn’t even realize you were hearing until you were NOT hearing it or a lack of blackness to the background that you didn’t realize that you didn’t have until you DID have it and etc.

I agree! You don't realize how much hashing noise is on the AC lines, until it's gone. 😎

Mike

I don’t know this to be an audio-fact, I am only surmising, but I suspect that it is possible that the effects of RF might not always be a detectable/audible hum or buzz. I think it might also produce a grain that you wouldn’t even realize you were hearing until you were NOT hearing it or a lack of blackness to the background that you didn’t realize that you didn’t have until you DID have it and etc.

But with that typed, I am STILL using all three of my dedicated circuits to run my  four pieces of audio gear. I have a few things that are higher on my list at the moment, but I am definitely intending on experimenting by running my gear off only one of those three circuits and turning the other two breakers to ’off.’

What I’ve done making 2 outlets suppling 4 high output sockets on 4 breakers. Needed 10/3 wire, 2 hospital grade outlets, 4x  20 amp breakers. Cut/break the gold bar joining the 2 gold screws on both outlets only. From one of the 10/3 wires put red wire (hot) on one gold screw and black wire (hot) on other gold screw, again make sure gold bar joining both gold screws is separated. Put white wire (neutral) on either of the silver screws. Again do Not cut/break the bar joining the two silver screws. Attach green ground wire. Do the same with the other 10/3 wire and remaining outlet. Next go to your panel install 4x 20 amp. breakers, install one black wire (hot) to one breaker, one red wire (hot) to another breaker. Do the same to the remaining two breakers with the red and black wires from the second 10/3 wire. Attach both green ground wires to ground bus bar. Now put both white (neutral) wires to (neutral) bus bar. You now have 4 sockets on two outlets with 4 independent 20 amp. breakers, safe high power to play with.

@audphile1    I agree two lines.  I have three lines - one for each Krell KRS200 and one for all the rest.  Make sure the new lines come directly off your supply board before supplies for the rest of the house.

I have never heard RF noise on this system.

Check your main earth and consider improving it, advised by knowledgeable contractor.

All…thank you so much! Lots of good points on the dedicated line as well as on the surge protector.

And @immatthewj thanks for posting those links!

@bikeboy52 thanks for the compliments!

@ghdprentice I’m keeping this one simple - no audiophile wires :) just good quality copper is all I think I will need. 
 

I’m leaning towards 2 lines. That will allow me to connect monoblocks if I ever go that route, and keep the source separated from the amp(s). Will figure it out in the next month or so. Putting it all together into my plans for early 2023.

I don’t think I have ever heard of anyone that has disputed this outcome, as in everything else about high end audio.

@ghdprentice  , however there does appear to be plenty of dispute related to the best way to go about implementing this upgrade. 

@audphile1 Wow beautiful system and room, just looked at your profile page. We’re a general contractor out in California. Good advice from Carlsbad. We never run a single circuit if going back to the panel (home run) labor essentially the same to run two or more little extra for the wire and other breaker(s)’and  you can never tell what you might need in the future. Also right on upsizing the wire, same thing labors the same minimal cost on the larger conductors.I wouldn’t overthink beyond that, lotsa talk on here about some pretty far out stuff on this subject keep it simple. Good luck.

Dedicated lines are a critical component in improving sound quality of your system.

You want two and using 10 gauge wire. One for your amp(s) and one for your power conditioner and the rest of your equipment. Beyond this, if you want go further you can get audiophile wire and do additional upgrades. But each time I have added a direct line the difference has been very substantial and cost effective. I have not gone beyond 10 gauge ROMEX. But that has been really worth it.
 

I don’t think I have ever heard of anyone that has disputed this outcome, as in everything else about high end audio.

One line is sufficient, especially if you will be using a power conditioner with say 6 to 10 outlets. Also 12 gauge Romex (20 amp) circuit is all you really need. 10 gauge is harder to work with and not really necessary. Also, you need to be mindful of ground loops if you are going for more than one dedicated circuit. I believe in keeping it simple to avoid such issues. 

. . . here is another one that I remember being basically about one vs multiple circuits . .

.

. . . here is one that I started after reading the previous one that I pasted got me wondering about a single circuit vs multiple circuits . . .

and just quite recently, Emergingsoul started a thread in the amps/preamps forum about putting multiple circuits on the same leg of the electrical panel or on both legs . . . I won't paste a link to that one, because it is up pretty near the top of the amps/preamps page. . . .

. . . here is one that I found interseting on the topic of a single circuit vs multiple circuits and RF . . .

. . . ad here is one on the subject of subpanels and grounds . . .

@immatthewj I searched and read a lot of the posts but didn’t see anything comprehensive posted recently. 

@audphile1 , I scrolled through my own replies to threads and starting in late October is when I began paying attention to the dedicated circuit threads.  I was going to go through and paste the links to all the 'dedicated' threads I have been reading, but for some reason, whenever I try to paste more than one link to a thread on this site, things get all screwy on me.  I don't know if it's the site, my ancient computer, or just me, but anyway, here is a thread I found from late October.

I'll go through and paste a couple of more that I found to be interesting/informative, but if you were to go to the amps/preamps forum & the misc audio forum and just start scrolling down several pages, you willrun into several threads on the topic.

@audphile1

As far as whole house surge protection, I would look at installing Environmental Potentials EP-2050 or 2050EE Surge and AC Waveform Correction & EP-2750 Ground Filter in sub or main panel feeding your audio room.

@whart +1 Great information!

Mike

@audphile1,

For dedicated audio lines I would go with Type MC Galvanized Steel Metal Clad Cable 10 AWG. It has better EMI shielding versus aluminum armor. Also, If your run is 60 feet 10 AWG is fine, no need for a sub panel. FWIW, I have four dedicated lines in my audio system. 😎

Here is a good article on the subject. See below:

Mike

It wasn't the lights per se, it was the TIMER they were plugged into.

I have a dedicated line to a treated listening room. By far the biggest improvement was acoustic treatment of the  ceiling and all four walls. The dedicated line was a modest improvement, but an improvement nonetheless. 

The other big improvement was selling the amp that was always affected by other electrical appliances (dishwasher, dryer, outdoor Christmas lights), and getting one that isn't affected at all.

Oh and I am using good outlet now that I like so I’ll just get few additional ones depending on how many lines I end up running. 

Thanks @carlsbad for the wire gauge recommendation. 
 

@immatthewj I searched and read a lot of the posts but didn’t see anything comprehensive posted recently. 

@whart  I am planning to use a commercial electrician who had done some work in the house already. Thanks for a detailed write up. I’ll probably end up putting a sub panel. Interesting about crap still present in the line that’s introduced by appliances despite the dedicated line. Thought that’s what we’re mitigating by running a dedicated line.

Distance from panel to the outlet that powers the system is probably over 60ft or so considering walls, bends, etc

So what I gather so far…

10 or 12 gauge wire. Copper bus bar panel/sub panel. Whole house surge protector (definitely a possibility). Multiple lines - I figure 1 for the amp, one for non-digital sources, one for digital. 
Any particular brands for wire, panel/sub panel, surge protector?

@whart  excellent synopsis of what I have been reading on this subject over the last month or so.  Particularly excellent was the reference to Jea48 on the subject.  I have learned a lot from him (and Erik Squires and Dpop and Ditusa and others).

@Jea48 is one of the resident experts on Code and beyond.

My experience: you eliminate some potential problems by running dedicated line(s) so your system isn’t sharing a branch circuit with noisy lighting, appliances, etc.

The audiophile way should also be the standard good electrical practice way, but my experience in several houses, with dedicated rooms is:

1. not all electricians are created equal; most are not audiophiles. I prefer commercial to residential electricians because they seem to know more, but you should talk to a couple to get a sense.

2. fatter gauge 10 v 14 is usually regarded as better. Fatter wire is harder to work with, mount on receptacles, etc.

3. I used basic Porter Ports (no longer available) but hospital grade is preferred for grip; unplated brass internals are preferable to galvanized steel; there are audiophile approved outlets at a cost. Hubbell makes a lot of the basic ones but you need to know what you are buying.

4. Distance- a factor, either too short or too long and don’t bundle multiple lines in conduit. They should be spaced. I ran 4 gauge (very heavy from my outdoors- more on that below) to the local service panel that controls the system. Then 10 gauge, using 20 amp breakers and the hospital grade 20 amp receptacles. That much is basic stuff. How far from your main service panel is the run to where you want to go?

5. Service panel- copper buss bar preferred. You can run a sub-panel even if your main panel isn’t but I like somebody to check the entire system out from service entrance (the power company has the authority to pull your meter and make sure you don’t have corroded contacts); then the main service panel---how is it set up? Lots of stuff about legs and noisy appliances if you are in US; the overall condition of the service panel and breakers is important. This can be easily checked by an electrician.

6. While you are at it, do a whole house surge protector- they are not necessarily expensive. I don’t use point of use surge/or conditioners because I have a subsystem that involves a 400 lb iso transformer that feeds the system- tied to the main ground of the house.

7. Think about your needs-- one way (used to be British) uses a single dedicated line with a distribution box- basically a high quality power strip without a switch, light or other crap and using good quality outlets. There is a fine line between these and power conditioners/point of use surge protectors. I don’t use the latter b/c whatever isolation I need comes from the big transformer, which also has a surge board. But this method gives you a better chance of avoiding differences in grounding potential among separate lines.

The other way is often multiple dedicated lines- isolate the digital on one; have enough to cover your needs- powered sub? Front end on a side wall further away? You may need several and it is cheaper if the guys are pulling cable, breaking sheet rock (unless you are exposed to studs) to do it once. This may occasion issues of ground hum but it is fixable. I have multiple lines 4 in the listening room and an additional one for the iso transformer on my air compressor that runs the tonearm. I like overkill.

8. A dedicated line is no guarantee that something else on the electrical system won’t create noise, even if it is on a different branch circuit. In NY I had dedicated lines, but certain appliances could be heard notwithstanding that. Solution- don’t use those appliances when listening. (One was a light, another was a convection oven). This may take us back to legs and noisy appliances. I don’t have this issue in Texas with the big iso transformer feeding the system, wired as described.

I think that covers basics. If anybody wants to get technical or correct anything said (I tried to keep this basic and neutral), go for it. Good luck. The smarter the electrician, the easier this goes.

. . . as I have recently been redoing my circuits I have been paying attention to these dedicate circuit question threads, and there have been a whole lot of them over the last month or so.  I am not sure how the search function works on this site, but if you can do a successful search on the subject a whole lot of discussion & varying points of view should come up.  So much so that having some popcorn on hand would be a good idea. 

I am pretty sure that most everyone will say to run a minimum of 12 awg with 20A breakers.

There does seem to be disagreement on whether gear on multiple circuits induces RF or not. I won’t even venture into this territory given my knowledge deficit on that subject and the fact that I am still running my gear on three dedicated circuits.

I am actually intending to acquire a strip that I can live with to experiment with so I can try to compare multiple circuits vs one circuit, but I just haven’t pulled the trigger yet.

You could always run two or more circuits with 12-2 and start with using all of the circuits and then experiment with the other breaker(s) tripped and see if you can ascertain an audible difference that you prefer (that is what I am intending to do), because the work of running the other circuit(s) won’t be crazy extra, just the cost of the extra Romex.