khragon
Great news you like the synergy with the SIT-2. Look forward to hearing more. My latest development is putting the Nenuphar's on Townshend Podiums (I've been using them under my speakers for a few years). toetapaudio listed the many benefits of this isolation device, so I"ll just say that the cumulative effect takes the speakers to another level I wasn't even thinking was there (the curse of the audiophile). Music sounds untethered to anything creating it, it just fills the space in the room quite effortlessly with no emphasis on transients or any part of the frequency range. Kind of a jaw dropper when you first hear it. My only complaint is that the foot print of the podium is fairly large and not wildly attractive. I'm sure Cube and Townshend could design something that was a more compact part of the speaker (purchased as an option?). Yes it would raise the speaker price by $2K or so, but the improvement IMHO is more than worth it. |
Steve, glad you tried isolating the speakers and heard an improvement. I think this is definitely something most speakers would benefit from. Townshend are a good commercially available product that work with a variety of speakers. My Townshend platforms can accommodate both the 8 and 10 inch Nenuphar’s. I still use the spikes and cups at the front, they just sit on the aluminium platforms. I secure the cups in place with industrial double sided tape.
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Which size Townshend platform do you use? In addition, the Star Sound line of platforms are also very good.
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stevendunn
My only complaint is that the foot print of the podium is fairly large and not wildly attractive. I’m sure Cube and Townshend could design something that was a more compact part of the speaker (purchased as an option?). Yes it would raise the speaker price by $2K or so, but the improvement IMHO is more than worth it.
>>>>>It’s not obvious but the footprint of the iso device must be large to obtain the required lateral stability for objects with high center of gravity. Sure, you could make the springs stiffer with a smaller footprint but then the device wouldn’t isolate as well.
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grannyring
The Townshend podiums are size 4 with load capacity E which starts at 85lbs so I put a couple of VPI bricks on top of each speaker since they are about 80lbs each. geoffkait
Makes sense. |
I have size 3, which accommodates both 8 and 10 inch Nenuphar’s. Size 2 should be ok with 8 inch only.
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Townshend platforms work otherwise it’s diy with platforms and springs. Imo spikes are not beneficial, see Barry Diament link above. |
This is a nice thread. A couple of thoughts based on system building...
Regarding whizzer cones, having used concentric, dynamic, hybrid dynamic, and full range hybrid speakers, I find whizzer cones to be no impediment to consideration of a speaker's sound as exquisite. I am currently using various speakers with whizzer cones and find they are as capable as any of achieving resolution on a par with very different drivers including ceramic, metal, etc.
Regarding damping factor, I had an interesting review of the Gold Note PA-1175 MkII for Dagogo.com, which offers an on the fly Damping Factor switch. This is one of the most curious and beneficial amp functions I have found in a SS amp. at DF of 25 the amp sounds quite like a SET (only with more power) and at DF of 250 it acquires the characteristics expected more of SS. It reveals how much DF does influence the speaker's performance. My experience was that lower DF will cause a plumping and slight rounding of the bass with less absolute cleanness on edges of notes, while higher DF does the opposite.
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Great posts all! Thanks all! |
@khragon Congratulations on your excellent results with your First Watt SIT-2
Thanks also for sharing the photo. Very nice.
Question: based on the photo it 'appears' your seating position is farther back...how far? And do your speakers cross-over behind you (they look to be set up with minimal toe-in)? Thanks. |
@toetapaudio Are you referring to isolation in general or specific to the Cube Audio speakers? If specific to the speakers, can you share more? Thanks. Imo spikes are not beneficial, |
@douglas_schroeder Your post was educational and helpful to me. Thanks! I'll read that review. |
@stephendunn How are your speakers setup on the Townshend platforms? Stock spikes / similar to @toetapaudio ’s OR some other arrangement? Did setting the speakers on the platforms 'force' changes in positioning / placement? Thank you. |
david_ten, thank you, I appreciate the appreciation! :) I did not mention the review with any intent to draw you away from your current amp, just for general info to the community.
It IS shocking, how fundamental a shift in character of sound attributes a system can undergo. That holds true for the genre of speaker, the caliber of the speaker, and the development of the audio system. There are dozens of levels of sound quality at a minimum.
It is also surprising how quickly we can change our allegiance based on acceptance of another set of criteria, or being impressed by operational strengths of a speaker or system.
My "problem" ( I surely do not see it as that, however) is that I love all the genres of high fidelity speakers! |
It seems to me that the Gold Note amplifier’s DF switch is actually manipulating the level of NFB. As NFB is increased the DF increases and the output impedance and gain level decreases.
I have no experience with the Townsend isolation platforms but I do not doubt their ability to improve the performance of speakers and audio components. Effective management of resonance and vibration is definitely worth pursuing.
I can attest to the considerable positive attributes of the Star Sound Apprentice platforms beneath speakers and components. These are excellent well engineered products. Their impact is undeniable in my audio system.
Geoffkait's explanation for the necessity of a wide/large footprint to ensure good isolation makes much sense to me.
Charles |
Hi David, I remain to be convinced by the benefit of spikes generally. I’m in the Max Townshend, Barry Diament, Peter Bizlewicz, Geoff Kait camp of isolation control.
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Pity Munich is cancelled, I was looking forward to meeting up with Cube.
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david_ten
How are your speakers setup on the Townshend platforms? Stock spikes / similar to @toetapaudio ’s OR some other arrangement? Did setting the speakers on the platforms ’force’ changes in positioning / placement? Thank you.
David--I am using the stock spikes in front and rubber feet in back. I centered them on the Townshend Podiums then leveled them on the side to side access by adjusting the Podiums’ feet. I used the placement I had found optimal before, about 36" from side walls and 20" from front wall (measured from back of speaker). I asked Jon what impact it might make to raise the drivers 1 3/8" off the floor using the Podiums. He said I might need to angle the speakers slightly more towards the listening chair, but I haven’t found the need to do this. (BTW I have found the angle of the speakers toward the listening chair to be the most critical set up adjustment. Very slight adjustments will impact tonality: the more toed in the more emphasis on higher frequencies. Since my listening is fairly near field (8’ from speakers 7’ apart) I don’t find the toe in impacts the soundstage as much as tonality. Even with the speakers facing straight ahead I get a strong, well defined central image.
I have noticed using other speakers on the Townshend Podiums that I could hear no difference between placing the speakers without feet on the podiums (Townshend’s recommendation and obviously not possible with the Nenuphars given it’s bottom port and back slant) and using feet, whether they be spikes or cones. But that may vary by speaker.
An interesting early impression of the Nenuphars on the Podiums makes them sound more forgiving of recording technique, although there is no doubt they are also more resolving. Kind of a conundrum. The entire presentation is just more relaxed and open. |
While I'm at it, I'm also going to post the results of the amplifier shoot out between the LTA Ultralinear and the PL SIT-3. Yes, I know, the Nenuphars are probably not fully broken in, but at around 75 hours I think the changes from here will be subtle and not alter the difference I hear between these two wonderful amplifiers.
Both these amps display terrific synergy with the Nenuphars. The difference being a matter of taste. To borrow from Srajan when he compared the Bakoon to the SIT-3 on page 6 of his Cube Audio Mini Basis review, the LTA was "a Nordic summer day" and the SIT-3 a "Tuscan afternoon, early fall." Which translates to many things having to do with detail, mid range, base and tempo. The LTA rendering detail more prominently, with a leaner mid range, a slightly more refined base and PRAT that was quicker, more forward. It made me sit up and take wonder. With the SIT-3 detail was more in balance, the mid range richer, the base deeper and rounder, and PRAT, well this is where it gets tricky, because there was something that made the SIT-3 more engaging, that pulled me into the music more, sometimes to a very emotional degree. My suspicion is it had something to do with PRAT, although none of those ingredients really called attention to themselves. Maybe it was greater second harmonic distortion? Bottom line: it would be nice to keep both amps to enjoy Nordic summer days and early fall Tuscan days as the mood struck me. But that seems a little excessive. I'm very happy here in Italy where "The light is softer. Edges are gentler. The breeze is warmer. Lunches are far longer."
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Has anyone here heard the Cube Audio speakers with the active subwoofers? I am wondering what is gained and what is lost by that approach. I am not a bass freak myself, and I was not particularly concerned with the bass I heard from the Nenuphar. But, from my experience with other full range drivers, adding other drivers changes the sound in so many different ways.
The active subwoofer would also substantially reduce the power requirements for powering the full-range driver. That would bring into play many of the ultra low-powered tube amps I like. |
Good question larryi, but unfortunately I haven’t been able to audition the versions with active subwoofers, that was one of the reasons for going to Munich but unfortunately that event has been cancelled. I have to say I don’t feel that I’m missing out on bass, with either the 8 inch or 10 inch Nenuphar’s.
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Steven, the LTA and SIT 3 sound like excellent choices. I’m hoping I might be able to try both at some point to compare with the Bakoon 13R. For me the fact that the Bakoon will have a matching dac enabling JET SATRI through BNC is important to me. Apart from the sound the minimal concept of their designs very much appeals. |
@david_ten
In the photo I did have them with very little toe in, was trying them out. Now I had them more toe in.. still playing around with placement. |
I did not mention the review with any intent to draw you away from your current amp, just for general info @douglas_schroeder I'm open to learning and understood your post as such. Thank you again. My 2A3 amps are a delightful pairing for the Nenuphars (based on my needs / preferences). That doesn't mean I am not open to experimenting with other options, including higher output SET amps. |
@toetapaudio I hear you on spikes, generally speaking. For example, I am using Ingress Audio Engineering's RollerBlocks throughout my system. I will note that moving from the stock spikes and rubber bumpers of the Nenuphar to Eden Sound brass spikes (front) and brass hemi-spikes/spheres (rear) made an easily identifiable and immediate positive difference. @khragon I recommend trying the above since (from your photo) it appears you are using the stock spikes / rubber bumpers. The Eden Sound solution, or equivalent, is a low cost change that (in my case) paid positive dividends. An easy first move to squeeze more performance out of the Nenuphars. [Note: I'm using the Eden Sound spikes 'solution' on Townshend Audio Seismic Platforms] ------------ It’s not obvious but the footprint of the iso device must be large to obtain the required lateral stability for objects with high center of gravity. Sure, you could make the springs stiffer with a smaller footprint but then the device wouldn’t isolate as well. Thanks @geoffkait +1 and noted. |
@stephendunn Thanks so much for the detail you shared around your experience and insights with the Townshend Seismic Platforms. I still need to work on optimizing placement / positioning / toe-in / tilt etc.
Your results and findings are very encouraging. |
@khragon Likewise, looking forward to what you end up preferring re. placement etc. in your setup. |
@david_ten I heard a Grandinote pre DAC /amplifier combo at the workshop and I was thoroughly impressed. One of the best set of front end electronics I have heard. Mind you, I've heard the Terminator DAC in a shootout - it's a good bit of gear too.
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We can supply Nenuphar drive units World wide and are looking into cabinet designs customers can use. We can also supply Townsend Podiums to use with the Nenuphar’s. |
@rixthetrick YES! Grandinote's Massimiliano Magri’s Magnetosolid Tech based electronics and his speakers are really, really good. |
I have about 100 hours now on my Nenuphars and just recently noticed another notch of improvement in the high register.
david_ten, toetapaudio
At what point did you feel the speakers were fully broken in?
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At what point did you feel the speakers were fully broken in? Stephen, copied below [from 10-09-2019 / Page 2 of this thread] are my thoughts on break in for the Nenuphars. Both Richard ( @toetapaudio ) and Jon Ver Halen may, based on their personal exposure and client feedback, find differently. Here is a response I sent to @toetapaudio on my personal experience with break in:
"....Cube, if memory serves me, felt a few hours of runtime would be sufficient.
Jon Ver Halen, the US importer, put it at 40 hours or so. Based on my experience, I peg it at about 150 hours before the Nenuphar start coming into their own. They definitely started sounding better after Jon’s recommendation of 40+ hours. So take 40 as a minimum, minimum...with 150 as my personally recommended minimum. For ’full’ break-in around 500 hours for musical beauty, wonder and engagement. An industry person I respect and who has significant experience tuning analog gear, felt 1000 hours would be needed. I realize ’hours’ of burn-in are a hot topic with folks falling on either side of the divide. I took his feedback and pushed for that 1K mark, after which I consider break in to be complete. However, If I were advising, I’d stick to the 500 hours with folks generally being happy with the results post 200 hours." |
david_tenThanks, David, I missed your post in the thread. Hard to imagine there is more to come from these wonderful speakers as I reach the 100 hour mark. If anyone has heard of or experienced the Nenuphars being driven by 300bs, please let me know. Curious about that tube's synergy. |
At 92 db/w efficiency, whether or not something like a single-ended 300b or other small triode will work depends a lot on how loud you like to play the system. With most single driver systems, you have the BIG advantage of the speakers sounding really good--lively and engaging--at quite low volume. I liked the Nenuphar playing at low volume. I liked it less when the volume was cranked up. That is not a big deal to me, because I like low-volume listening, but, it is something to consider when looking at this kind of speaker and the right amp to work with the speaker. |
Stephen, David uses 3.5 watt 2A3 SET mono blocks with superb results and preferred them in direct comparison to an excellent quality el 34 PP amp and his excellent T+A SS amps. I believe you’d be very happy with a good quality 300b SET (8 watts usually) driving your Nenuphars.. At European audio shows Cube Audio often demonstrates with 2A3 and 45 SETs to reveal how easily driven the Nenuphar is. Charles |
I am not surprised that people report good results with SET 2a3 and 300b amps. I generally do find that most people overestimate the amount of power they really need. For the vast majority of time, one listens at levels where a watt or two is enough.
But, there will be some limitations with these types of amps and speakers in this efficiency range. With really demanding music, such as large-scale choral music, at crescendi, one will hear the effects of compression--the music stops getting louder and it becomes more muddled sounding. I hear this to some extent when using my 5.5 watt amps on 99 db/w efficient speakers. It is not a big deal to me; I don't attempt to listen to Mahler's 8th at "realistic" volume, but it may be a bigger deal to someone else. This is something everyone has to judge for themselves. |
Agree, and this is why people must know their own listening expectations/ demands and intentions when attempting to pair amplifiers and speakers. This is truly an individual endeavor. Charles |
Hard to imagine there is more to come from these wonderful speakers as I reach the 100 hour mark. Stephen, I found there was "more to come..." : ) Let us know what you find. |
I liked the Nenuphar playing at low volume. I liked it less when the volume was cranked up. The Nenuphar speakers, in my system and room, sound wonderful when played loud. I attribute the ability to play them even louder than in the past to improvements I made on the power and power cable side of my system. Treating my room will push these already high volume levels, higher. My reference being: long listening sessions, at higher volumes than normal for me, without the problems that cut a session short. I fully realize the 2A3 amps I'm using have limits in this respect. Having said that, those limits now are far higher (e.g. in volume without distortion / fatigue) than I expected and understand (technically). I've come to learn that the types of music and how I go about listening to that music are 'tells' about my system and it's performance and parameters. One I've noticed recently is that I'm listening to large scale classical music with much greater frequency than I have in the past. This clearly communicates something (important) to me. We all have different references and requirements. It's what makes this hobby so very interesting to me. What follows isn't dictate...it's merely an illustration of my comfort level in what my needs are: Based my experience with Scott Sheaffer's Found-Music 2A3 amps, I (personally, for myself) do not see a need for more power than what a quality 300B SET amp offers to drive the Nenuphars. |
Hi David, Thanks for your insight into recent listening experiences. Does your T+A 300 watt amplifier offer any additional advantage specifically related to large scale symphonic/choral music at high volume levels? It's clear (to me) you prefer the 2A3 Found Music amplifiers under virtually all other listening conditions (Genre and typical volume level). Charles |
@charles1dad Charles, I have not brought the T+A PA 3100 HV Integrated Amp back in system since the changes to the power supply / conditioner, power cables, etc.
I need to do so, especially since the T+A SDV 3100 HV is well on it's way to be 'broken in' (over 200 hours of playtime on it) AND the other changes are settled (for the most).
I'll make a point to do so and report back. |
David 10 I’m going to be listening to the Nenuphar 8s in a couple weeks when we get back home from sunny Florida , really look forward to that listening event , I’ve been really stumped what I want speaker wise.
We recently down sized our home and gone is my listening room above the garage along with my Magnapan speakers and Rolland amps , I now have a much smaller room where such a speaker like Cube Audio Nenuphar could possibly perform well in .
David I just noticed you’ve done some radical changes to your system I’d like to ask about your Synergistic conditioner and power cords replacing the P.I. Audio Uber and Triode wires , you can pm me if you like , thanks .
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Just to confirm that you can add a sub at a later date to either 8 or 10 inch Nenuphar’s if you so wish. |
@in_shore I'll send a PM now. |
@ david_ten
I have experienced the same phenomime you have eluded to in your very informative posts. Four months ago, I never heard of a 2A3 or 45 DHT until an EE friend/designer mentioned that it is the most refined tube one can acquire and that started the ball rolling since he mentioned that 2 Watts would drive my 98 Db+ speakers...
Two months later, Triode Lab 2A3 Monos 4.5 Watts with Hashimoto Output Transformers arrives and the clarity and dimensionality is unmistakable especially if you have efficient speakers of 98 Db+.
None of the KT88 Amps or SET 805 with 300B as drivers I have owned has the refinement, separation, depth, sound staging, transparency or the flow of sound that those DHT provides, it’s just magical and I believe the sound quality is related to its simplistic design.
I also have many friend owning 2A3 Amps and have a collection of NOS Tubes and the verdict is the JJ 2A3-40 and that’s what I’m using with some Shuguang 2A3C as back-ups which are quite good as well.
Wig
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The JJ 2A3 40 has a reputation as a very good sounding tube for reasonable cost. I be quite curious as how it compares to the EML 2A3 solid plate (SP) David currently uses. David if you ever decide to try the JJ I’d be interested in how it fared against your excellent (My opinion) EML in your high resolution system that seems to easily bare all sonic nuance/subtleties. This would informative.
Charles |
That would be an interesting comparison and have heard some talk about the new Psvane Acme Series 2a3 that suppose to be better than everything...but they all sound different in the many typologies that are available.
Wig
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@wig I'm with you, as you know! : )
The Nenuphars are 92dB / 6 Ohm (going by memory here) and the 2A3s avail themselves with distinction. Surprising, because on 'paper' they would not be advised. |
@charles1dad The EML SPs replaced the JJ 40s Scott’s Found-Music 2A3 amps came with (per the seller’s offering). In other words not stock. Buyer would specify if the amps were to be purchased new.
Not even close, in terms of my preference for the EML SP over the JJ 40s. Having said that, my amps / system sounded very good with the JJs. They are a terrific value. |
Hi David,
Okay, "you've been there and done that" with regard to comparing the two 2A3s. So much for that😀. The EML is much more expensive and their performance should reflect that. Based on my experience with the EML XLS 300b I can vouch for the following
Excellent sound quality
Exceptional reliability
Very long life span
The EML 2A3 should no different.
Charles |
