I heard the Nenuphars at the 2019 Capital Audiofest. I liked, in part, what I heard. Typical of the breed, it sounded very lively and engaging. But, again typical of the breed, it was short on deep bass, a bit lacking in warmth, a bit rough sounding in the upper midrange and had a pronounced peak in the treble range. Whether the undeniably great attributes of such a speaker outweigh the negatives is a matter of taste. In part, it would matter what one listens to most frequently. To me, the Nenuphars sounded very good with jazz, particularly where brass instruments are prominent. They also sounded good with vocal pop music. But, they lacked the weight and ability to deliver power when large-scale classical music was played.
So far, I've only heard a couple of single driver systems that I could easily live with myself. One is the Voxativ Ampeggio, the other is the Charney Audio system. I particularly like the Charney. I've heard their speaker with the AER and Voxativ driver, and I particularly like the AER driver (a little bit more extended on top, and very smooth).
When "full-range" drivers are coupled with other drivers in multi-way systems, the result can be really good. I've heard some amazingly good systems that use full-range drivers as the bass/midrange driver in two way systems, and I've also heard them used as midrange drivers in three way systems. One big advantage of using full range drivers in multi-way systems is that crossovers can be simpler (I heard, and liked, systems where the full range driver is run full range, with a first order high pass filter network on the tweeter-very minimalist crossover). |
It might very be the case that the show room (small hotel room) and the accompanying electronics were not ideal--they rarely are, but, I have some experience listening to gear under these circumstances so I have a rough handle on what the speakers sound like. I heard them in near-field conditions, so I know a bit more than if I heard them in some very large space where bad sound is most often the result of a bad room.
Please don't misunderstand, I actually liked the speaker. I am also very much drawn to speakers that sound vivid, alive and do micro-dynamics well (which IS the case of the Nenuphar). But, I pointed out what I saw as some shortcomings (all speakers have them) because that is, to me, more informative than unconditional ravings. Because speakers like the Nenuphar deliver a sound that is so much more vivid than the typical audiophile speaker, it is easy to be caught up in its strengths and not become aware of what would be more serious issues if you own them and had to live with them in the long term. I did that myself when I first became aware of what many high efficiency systems (e.g. horn systems) can do.
By the way, I find it interesting that you mentioned the S.I.T-3 amp. A friend of mine built his own S.I.T. amp from the design Nelson Pass made publicly available and it is one of a handful of solid state amps that I like. Another one is the Nelson Pass First Watt J-2 which I borrowed from the same friend. I would not consider either amp "warm," at least tonally, but, they were very musically engaging and did not sound lifeless (which is the case with many solid state amps). |
Thanks David. That is how I got to ask you this question; I have posted in this thread. I will just have to wait, like everyone else. |
I am wondering who else has heard various single driver systems and can compare the results. I would love to hear something like the big AER system with the huge back-load horn and front wave-guide horn.
I know that Classic Audio has a field coil model (T-8), but, I have not heard that one either. I heard a Classic Audio prototype that used a fullrange field coil in combination with a woofer module. In terms of vibrancy and immediacy, which I love about these types of speakers, it was fantastic. But, it had a hard edge to transients and was very sibilant; a work in progress, but, I do hope to hear it with that issue tamed.
The other good thing about most of these fullrange systems is that they work so well with the kinds of amps I favor, which is low-powered amps. I own three tube amps, the most powerful being rated at 6.5 watts per channel. |
I heard the Nenuphar Basis with First Watt amps and really liked what I heard, much more so than the Nenuphar without the woofers. I do wish to hear them with a warmer tube amp, like a 6L6 or KT 66 amp. The are efficient enough for a single ended triode to at least be in the contest.
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Has anyone here heard the Cube Audio speakers with the active subwoofers? I am wondering what is gained and what is lost by that approach. I am not a bass freak myself, and I was not particularly concerned with the bass I heard from the Nenuphar. But, from my experience with other full range drivers, adding other drivers changes the sound in so many different ways.
The active subwoofer would also substantially reduce the power requirements for powering the full-range driver. That would bring into play many of the ultra low-powered tube amps I like. |
I am not surprised that people report good results with SET 2a3 and 300b amps. I generally do find that most people overestimate the amount of power they really need. For the vast majority of time, one listens at levels where a watt or two is enough.
But, there will be some limitations with these types of amps and speakers in this efficiency range. With really demanding music, such as large-scale choral music, at crescendi, one will hear the effects of compression--the music stops getting louder and it becomes more muddled sounding. I hear this to some extent when using my 5.5 watt amps on 99 db/w efficient speakers. It is not a big deal to me; I don't attempt to listen to Mahler's 8th at "realistic" volume, but it may be a bigger deal to someone else. This is something everyone has to judge for themselves. |
At 92 db/w efficiency, whether or not something like a single-ended 300b or other small triode will work depends a lot on how loud you like to play the system. With most single driver systems, you have the BIG advantage of the speakers sounding really good--lively and engaging--at quite low volume. I liked the Nenuphar playing at low volume. I liked it less when the volume was cranked up. That is not a big deal to me, because I like low-volume listening, but, it is something to consider when looking at this kind of speaker and the right amp to work with the speaker. |
I have owned and used both meshplate and solid plate 2a3s from EML. I like both types. I ran a pair per channel in parallel single-ended configuration (Audio Note Kageki amps). Both pairs lasted a decent amount of time, although the meshplate went out of balance earlier (parallel single ended seems to cause tubes to become unmatched earlier than other types of operation).
The solid plate is more like a conventional 2a3--slightly lean sounding, open on top, tight bass and crystal clear and detailed. The meshplate bring something else into that same general description--the soundstage seems more expansive (the sound envelops the listener more) and there is a more dramatic presentation of the music--a heightened sense of presence and dynamics. Whether it is realistic or not, I liked the presentation of the meshplate tube, but, I will also say that this presentation is a bit "phasey" sounding and I can see someone not liking it. |
At many audio shows, the Zu Audio room features their models playing hard rock and metal music playing at extremely high volume. The speakers are quite capable at delivering at high volume levels.
Full range single driver systems cannot deliver that kind of volume level (the Nenuphars delivered plenty volume for my particular taste) and actually excel at delivering a vibrant sound at quite low volume levels. Although they are not particularly efficient, they are probably efficient enough for use with some SET amplifiers if one does not demand extreme volume output or use in a very large room.
Use with a single-ended 300B amp? I don't know, I never heard them used with that kind of amplifier. But, I guess they are not well suited for smaller single-ended amps, like those running 45s, given my experience with a 99 db/w 8ohm speaker (I've run this speaker with pushpull 45s, parallel SET 2a3s and pushpull 349s; single ended 45s were okay, but marginal with certain kinds of music).
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Why is a low damping factor (high output impedance) desirable for these speakers? Is the frequency response change from the high output impedance and the impedance curve of the speaker a favorable interaction?
As a fan of low output tube amps, many of which have typically high output impedance (low damping factor), I generally don't find low damping factor to be a big deal, but, I never thought of it as a positive attribute.
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I really like, with almost any reasonably efficient speakers, and some not so efficient, the Synthesis A-40 integrated amp (digital dac included). It utilizes KtT-66 tubes in pushpull to deliver 40 wpc. If you demand more power their A-100 amp delivers 1000 wpc by doubling the number of output tubes.
I would also hazard a guess that an Audio Note Oto would work well.
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I do like some open baffle speakers, but, I would think that if it were so easy to make a "much better version of the Cube speaker" by making a very easy to build and cheap open baffle version, Cube or someone else would have done so already. There are probably good reasons why went with what appears to be a version of the Voigt pipe form of loading.
Still, it would be great to have a thread with DIYers showing off their designs. I've heard some really interesting OB speakers, including some monster, cost is no object designs using twin 18" fieldcoil woofers in a baffle more than 4.5 feet wide.
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It is not just the large front baffle and space requirement that works against OB, they do not go as deep bass-wise because of the lack of reinforcement and because of out of phase cancellation. I personally don't give ultra deep bass a high priority, so OB speakers are attractive, but, the market seems to really put such a premium on ultra deep bass--hence the use of subwoofers, popularity of high wattage solid state amps that can deliver bass punch, etc.
A lot of the modern speakers with their very narrow front profiles sound the way they look, to me--thin and lacking is weight. I do wonder if not enough concern is given to baffle-step and diffraction issues with some of these thin baffle designs.
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David,
Why is a discussion of the suitability of the Cube driver for use in OB systems not an appropriate subject for this thread? It appears to be a thread about both the speaker and the driver.
While I have my doubts that this driver would be better sounding in an OB (because I think the designers would have tried it this way), I nonetheless think it should be an excellent candidate for such use for fans of OB speakers because of its overall competence.
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The Nenuphar is a complete system, so it is hard to compare with a driver. So far, I haven't heard a single driver Lowther system I preferred to the Nenuphar, but, I haven't heard the Charney Audio system with the Lowther driver; I heard, and really liked their systems with AER and Voxativ drivers.
These days, single driver systems are doing so much more to overcome the disadvantages of a single driver, while retaining the advantages, such that they are contenders in the high end arena. For my taste, I like the two-way Nenuphar Basis and I still like really good horn-based systems more than single driver systems, but, I could live with a number of single driver systems I've heard.
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No, I have not heard the latest Horning Aristotle Ellipse. I have heard other Horning speakers which are very dynamic and exciting sounding. I do like their use of full range drivers as wide range drivers in multi-way systems. Some of their systems sound a bit too bright or hard sounding for my taste, but, overall, I prefer that to the dead sound of most low-efficiency modern speakers.
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I've heard several systems not made by Voxativ that utilize their drivers and the drivers certainly prove to be quite good. They do a good job with fieldcoil magnets. G.I.P. Laboratories, a Japanese company also makes a very good fieldcoil wide range driver that is around 12" in diameter. The downside is the price which is way up there in Feastrix territory (they make a decent fieldcoil full range driver too.
Among the best sounding full/wide range drivers currently available are the models made by the German company AER. The prices range from expensive to crazy expensive, but, I've heard systems employing their drivers that sounded remarkably smooth and lacking in harsh peaks that are common to this type of driver.
It is a bit of a sad state of affairs that some really old, no longer made wide-range drivers remain among the very best ever made. I would take the Jensen M-10/ERPI 4151 13" field coil driver over almost any other such driver out there; add a good tweeter you can have an almost matchless system. |
David and other owners,
Have you had a look inside the box? I saw a photo once that showed it to be a box lined with foam panels. But, the name suggests it is a tapered quarter wave tube loading arrangement which would include a slanted piece of wood creating two tapered chambers. Is this the configuration?
It might be play around with those terrific drivers and either a foam-lined tube with a vent on the bottom or a similar TQWT alignment would be not that hard to build.
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Thanks David. Because I am so lazy, I probably would not go the DIY route myself, but, I do know people with the skills to do it and the ears and discrimination to make a DIY project work. If I ever do change my speakers (not that likely because they are very good old school horn systems), certainly a viable candidate is the Nenuphar Basis which I heard at the Capital Audiofest and liked very much. That speaker is one of the few fully realized commercial systems that has impressed me a lot; that it is a pretty good bargain is all the more reason to be impressed.
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They work well with low-powered amps because they sound extremely lively and engaging at lower volume levels. Unlike most contemporary speakers, you don't have to crank them up to get your toes tapping. I am a fan of that kind of sound, whether from full-range/wide range drivers or from horn-based systems. |
Please excuse me for posting something irrelevant here, but, has anyone else had problems with getting to "recent" postings? I cannot get there on either my laptop at work or my iPad at home. |
At the Capital Audiofest, I got to hear the Cube Nenuphar Basis speaker in a very large conference room setup, with the speakers set far away from any room boundaries. The electronics included a particularly rare First Watt amplifier.
The sound of the setup was fantastic--rich, harmonically dense and complete, relaxed and natural sounding while remaining lively. This was among the best sounds I heard at the show. The mild reservations I had about the sound of the 10" Nenuphar systems I've heard before at shows, were completely non-existent in this system--no upper midrange peak or tendency to "shout" and superb performance with music that required weight, such as full scale classical music. In absolute terms, a very good sounding system, and at its price, a fantastic bargain. |
What is too much damping? The Cube Audio folks used solid state amps at a show I attended. I assumed that they have a higher damping factor than most tube amps. If they do best with low damping factor, wouldn't they shine best with tube gear?
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