David
Meniscus tears are no fun. Lived with one far too long. Wish I'd gone to the surgeon first thing. I suppose that's deemed an elective surgery right now? Good luck.
My bad, I didn't understand your point at first. Yes, the wood strips do close off the space front and back between Platform and bottom of speaker. And you're right, that space was no doubt tuned for the size and output of the port. I'm going to do some A/B listening with and without the wood strips to see if I can get a handle on what it's doing to the bass. (Ok, I have to admit when I first put the wood under the speakers my ears gave a double thumbs up and they haven't moved since.) But I have to say when I was listening to the Symphony Fantastique the other day (at near live level) I was amazed by the depth and reverberation of the kettle drums...so I don't think it's diminishing the bass...
On another note, I ran into the Townshend Super Tweeters I used to use with other speakers in my storage closet. I think I'll experiment with those. I remember SE effusing about the addition of omnidirectional super tweeters (forget the name right now) on top of the Nenuphars.
This makes me sound like I'm unappreciative of the Nenuphars as is. Hardly. It's more like having a hyper sensitive instrument that responds to everything it interacts with. Fun stuff.
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Has anyone tried a Valvet amp with a Nenuphar? |
@rwpollock I've had an interest in Valvet for some time and came close to purchasing the A4 instead of my Pass Labs 30.8 to drive my previous speakers.
I just took a quick look at Valvet's website but couldn't find the information I was looking for.
I recommend reaching out to Alfred (the importer/retailer) and Valvet directly to find out the following:
- Feedback (preferably zero; or very low levels)
- Damping Factor (the lower the better)
If the above holds, I can see Valvet being an alternative along the lines of First Watt, which (as you probably know) has proven to be a terrific pairing with the Nenuphars.
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I've sent an e-mail to Alfred at Highend-Electronics. Will let you know what he replies.
- Robert |
Reference coupling to Townshend Podiums. This is a good thing I believe but difficult to achieve in practice. At the moment I have only gone as far as fixing down the cups with industrial double sided tape to the Podiums to stop sliding. It also means I can change from 10 to 8 inch Nenuphar’s using the same Podiums by detaching the cups and repositioning.
Any material change under the speakers ( or under any piece of equipment for that matter) will change the sound of course. If I were to make new block feet, out of wood for example, then I would make use of the existing threaded inserts in the speaker bottom and fix them using counterbored threaded bolts. The feet would then be fixed to the Podiums with DS tape or even better ( but more extreme) drilling a hole and fixing with screws from under the top plate. Candidates for best feet material: perhaps Maple, Ebony, brass?
Regarding amplification compatibly with the Nenuphar’s I just want to emphasis that the little (but giant in performance) Bakoon 13R should be added to the list of suitable amps imo. |
RY, you know the solution: Nenuphar BASiS. Sealed cabinet. Full Metal (Jacket) Contact. : ) |
David, expensive way of doing it but yes should work. Personally I’m ok with the bass as it is from either Nenuphar’s and prefer the simplicity.
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Robert, that was slightly’ tongue in cheek’...though it is a simpler (and wishful) solution to the previous few posts on the topic. : )
BTW, have you had a chance to hear the BASiS units? If so, thoughts?
Like you, I’m impressed with low frequency level, performance and quality from the ’standalone’ Nenuphar. |
No, I didn't listen to the BASiS; I'm not really a bass addict. In addition,I believe they are quite expensive (11,000 euros). Even the smaller stand alone subs are sold at Refined Audio for $5,500 -- which Jon admits is expensive.
- Robert |
David, because Munich was cancelled I haven’t listened to the BASiS. Actually I’m more interested in the Magus for customers who can’t stretch to the Nenuphar’s. |
Robert and Robert, thanks for your responses.
If anyone owns / has had ears on the Nenuphar BASiS, please post.
RY: given the costs (and performance), that makes sense... as well as room sizes in the UK and Europe.
My move has been seriously postponed due to the current pandemic. Probably a year out now. It will be interesting what I end up with, listening room wise...and whether I will be able to try out the BASiS or an alternative future offering from Cube Audio.
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@rwpollock Obviously it's *best* to just let the speaker designer make all the decisions for you, but there are a lot of subwoofer options out there that have all the basic features of the BASiS subs. The full range driver is indeed "rocket science-ish", but looking at the subs makes me think there are plenty of other more cost effective solutions that might work just fine.
The pandemic has hit almost all of us, so I'm also on long delay, but I'm still thinking about building the sealed box diy version of their monitors and pairing with my existing subs (the 2 x 12" bass units of Coincident PREs) and subwoofer amplifiers (Dayton audio SA1000 monoblocks). Won't look as pretty and may not sound quite as good, but it should be close at the worst. |
It is generally recognized that overdamping the Nenuphars is not a good idea. At 6moons Srajan wrote in his review of the First Watt SIT-3 about driving the Nenuphars:
"...you won't be surprised to learn that the SIT-1 and SIT-3 were the perfect antidotes; better than the F5 and F7, very much better than the Pass Labs XA-30.8, radically superior to 200-watt class A/B specimens of the 1Mhz ultra-bandwidth persuasion."
As an example of the last, the Soulution 501 has a damping factor of 10,000 (which would correspond to an output impedance of 0.0001 ohms). The Mola Mola, a class D amp, has an output impedance of 0.003 while the Bryston 4B clocks in at 0.016 ohms. Still too low to be of interest.
Moving on to a couple of tube amps, the Audio Research VT80 has an output impedance of 0.12 while the Aesthetic Atlas is 0.25. With OTL amps, the LTA Z10 impedance is 1.2 ohms and their Ultralinear is at 1.6 ohms.
Looking at the solid state amps that Sjaran ranked we see a consistent pattern:
SIT-1 4 ohms
SIT-3 0.26 ohms
F-5 0.025 ohms
F-7 0.01 ohms
Pass XA 30.8 0.007 ohms
Here are the output impedances of the First Watt stable:
F-1 80 ohms
F-2 15 ohms
SIT-1 4 ohms
SIT-2 4 ohms
J-2 0.4 ohms
SIT-3 0.26 ohms
F-4 0.2 ohms
F-3 0.12 ohms
F-6 0.06 ohms
M-2 0.05 ohms
F-5 0.025 ohms
F-7 0.01 ohms
Which leads to the exit question: Has anyone listened to the F-1 or F-2 with the Nenuphars?
Robert |
The F1 and F2 amps really have output impedances that high? This seems impractical for use with most any speaker. 80. and 15. ohms? Is there a missing decimal point? Particularly elevated for a transistor amplifier. What would be Nelson Pass' rationale for those levels? The S.I.T.-1 and 2 at 4 ohm I can understand. Charles |
Yes, it is high. Here is a link from FirstWatt on the F1: www.firstwatt.com/f1.html"It has both balanced and single-ended inputs. The input impedance is nominally 80 Kohm, and the output impedance is 80 ohms." And from the F1 manual: www.firstwatt.com/pdf/prod_f1_man.pdf" Input Impedance, unbalanced 50 Kohms, 8 ohm loadOutput impedance 80 ohms" In his 2004 review of the F-1, Dick Olsher wrote: "Current drive offers a major alternative to the speaker-amplifier interface. A transconductance amplifier is operated as a current source with a high source impedance relative to that of the speaker. The output impedance must also be linear and frequency independent. An ideal current source would possess an output impedance so large as to be considered infinite relative to that of the speaker. The F1's 80-ohm impedance is certainly adequate in this regard." |
Just to complicate things, I was reading back through the thread and came across toetapaudio's comment from a year ago (6/20/19): "We are getting great results driving the Cubes with Mola Mola Makua/Kaluga’s and look forward to trying Bakoon amplification soon with the Cubes." The Kaluga's output impedance is listed as <0.003 ohm with a damping factor >4000. www.mola-mola.nl/kaluga.phpGo figure. |
@rwpollock Good question(s). Since Srajan Ebaen is very familiar with Nelson's First Watt efforts, perhaps an email to Mr. Ebaen (via his website) would shed light?
Regarding the Kaluga, perhaps @toetapaudio can comment? I believe his current favorite is Bakoon. |
Bakoon 13R is my preference with the Cubes. I’m using it with the Bakoon DAC21 which is out of production but I’m looking forward to a new dac from Bakoon in the imminent future. Physically the new dac will match the 13R. I’m expecting it not to cost more than the amp.
I’m over joyed with the sound I’m getting with the Cube/Bakoon pairing and I have had great comments from customers. The Bakoon very small, which proves bigger is not always better. I’m finding increasingly people want a simple and uncluttered system. |
Any thoughts on the output impedance question? IIRC, the 13R prides itself on low output impedance which should translate in a high damping factor
Robert |
The Nenuphar driver was very specifically designed to mate well with high output impedance amplifiers. It utilizes a "powerful" magnet to control the driver. Srajan Ebaen certainly confirmed this with his review where he used multiple amplifiers. the higher the output impedance (lower damping factor) the better the sound.
It is quite interesting how some listeners/owners of the speaker are reporting very good sound with amplifiers that don’t meet the desired criteria. It really seems that a high DF amplifier would deaden the sound of the Nenuphar as the driver would be markedly ’over damped’. I realize you have to trust what you hear but this seems very counter intuitive. I wonder what additional factors are involved here. Charles |
There has to be other factors.
As Srajan has said ( 6 Moons Bakoon 13R review) “ Of all the speakers I would saloon around on the Bakoon, Nenuphar was the hostess with the mostest”.
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Hi guys,
Im a bit late to the party here but being a Nenuphar owner I thought I should contribute my nothing but positive experience with these magical speakers. I’ve had them for about a year. They were Refined Audio’s 2019 AXPONA demos. My last speakers were RETHM Trisha’s so I was already soaked in the single driver widebander koolaide. At first I was powering them with an Audion 2A3 which has a preamp section and was more than enough power for digital sources. It didn’t quite make it happen with the lower signal of my phono stage. I tried a few line stages, I couldn’t find the synergy I was looking for. By luck I was able to buy one of the last SIT 3s available. I also sold/replaced the rest of my kit and arrived at where I am now which for me is grail level. The Nenuphars powered by the First Watt SIT3, The Truth buffered no gain linestage, Sutherland 20/20 phonostage, VPI Classic 2 SE, Ortofon 2M White SE mono cartridge currently mounted while waiting for new Soundsmith Paua stereo cart. I had been listening to a Grado Reference 2. The Nenuphar and SIT 3 could not work better for the music I listen to which is 80% acoustic. The other 20% is Steely Dan, Allmans, some old fusion, nothing too grungy. This system loves Steely Dan. Right now though for analog I am stuck in mono until my new cartridge comes. I was just listening to the 45rpm mono pressing of Billie Holiday Body and Soul. It was so present and so beautiful I was utterly in awe of her and her band. Srajan said these speakers are a benign psychotropic drug if you are receptive enough to get it. I find that when I am able to be that relaxed into it, and with the right recording, there is a deep sonic architecture occurring. An album that demonstrates this in way that I could hardly believe is the MoFi One Step of Yes, Fragile. I don’t listen to much prog anymore in my advanced years but it was huge part of my youth and I had to have this album. What the sound of this record coming through these speakers does in my minds eye is astonishing. I gained a whole new respect for Eddie Offord.
I have heard a few true cost no object systems. I truly think the only thing any of them has over my system is the ability to produce scale.
The actual scale of a symphony or ZZ Top live. None of them had the kind of intimacy I felt with Lady Day a little while ago and that’s what I was shooting for when I chose my components. I want Gillian Welch or Joan Baez or Janos Starker to be present. I don’t care if I feel a kick drum in my chest.
The Cube Nenuphar give me everything I could want. The only upgrade I wound ever make from here is the turntable and I don’t really feel a need for that.
FYI: I’ve noted that Peter B and others are placing them close to the front wall. That does not work in this room at all. My optimum location is 60" from front wall to drivers. 7’ apart driver to driver. Listening position in 7’ triangle with that. Toe in just a few degrees, found by by ear to optimize center image/soundstage relationship.
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I'm a bit late to the party @mrubey I think not. Sounds like you've been partying for the better part of a year now. Wonderful to hear!!! |
Good morning david_ten,
A party of one. The audiophile disease is a lonely pursuit. I have exactly three audio buddies in real life. The closest is about an hour and a half away. I try to turn people on to this stuff but few get it. It’s not that they don’t hear, it’s more that they don’t give themselves time to come under the spell properly. Also, people don’t know or have forgotten how to listen as the primary experience. And then there are those who are incredulous about the expense. "You mean you could have bought a boat instead of a stereo?" Some get it and want to get away from it as fast as they can so it doesn’t infect them becoming the expensive itch that must be scratched.
My wife used to hate it but is learning to appreciate it. Until just recently when she looked at it all she could see was dollar signs.
Dave Slagle and or Jeffery Jackson have a blog called HiFi heroin.
True enough. |
So, in which state do you live? |
I live just outside San Antonio Texas.
I actually have a new friend in Victoria who wants to come up.
He has friend in Houston that has a Kondo Kagura based system.
I hope to experience that someday.
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I have met a few local audiophiles through classified ads, and I did sell a pair of Triangle floorstanders to a neighbor. He drives them with his Sony receiver and is quite happy. He felt no need to upgrade anything else. |
I would like to add my two cents to the discussion about amp compatibility, specifically regarding damping factor, with the Nenuphars. To recap: I've had extended auditions with three amps: the LTA Ultralinear, The First Watt SIT-3 and the First Watt SIT-1. I settled on the SIT-1 for its overall superiority--not just one thing it did better than the rest. However, one area in which the SIT-1 excelled that I believe might be related to damping factor is scale. As mrubey and others have commented, the Nenuphars are capable of creating the scale of much larger speakers. But not only does the SIT-1 bring a noticeably increased sense of largeness through a sound stage that opens more in every direction, but it increases immediacy and involvement when playing at low volumes. I found this to be even more important than increasing the largeness of scale since I'm an early riser and play at relatively low volumes for several hours before others wake. Does this have something to do with damping factor? I don't know, but Charles and some of the other more technically astute posters might. Although all the amps I've mentioned have relatively low damping factors, the SIT-1's factor is 2 which is the lowest by a significant margin. |
Steve, Cube Audio's Grezegorz made it clear to Srajan Ebaen that the voice coil excursion and the phenoic spider of the Nenuphar are very well controlled by the magnetic field provided by the very powerful neodymium magnets (81 total). He also mentioned the importance of the driver’s carefully determined geometry and level of cone/whizzer stiffness employed. Grzegorz clearly intended for the Nenuphar to pair in excellent fashion with low DF amplifiers.
It seems this speaker will also sound quite good with amps of higher (to a point) DF but will most probably display their ultimate performance with the targeted low DF amplifiers. Your listening impressions do seem to bear that out. Charles |
I wonder if the new Yamaha a-s3200 would be the best match for these speakers ?.. .. |
I googled the Yamaha AS 3200 and according to Yamaha, THD 0.07% Damping Factor (DF) is 250 at 1K HZ and 8 ohms Those numbers suggest a generous amount of negative feedback NFB is utilized. On paper not a particularly good match for the Nenuphar but listening is the final arbiter. Charles |
Stephen (and other posters here who are interested in this), I've posted your question about damping factor and scale / image size in the "Damping Factor - Interesting Article" thread.
I'll cycle back, with a copy/paste, if the 'topic' is addressed and/or answered there. |
Cycling back from the 'Damping Factor' thread. Duke's ( @audiokinesis ) answers and findings are likely relevant to what member owners of the Nenuphar are reporting on. Copied here: First a bit of background: I design speakers with fairly high and unusually smooth impedance curves so that they have very similar response with both amplifier types across most of the spectrum, and then include user-adjustable bass tuning to adapt to the effects of amplifier damping factor into the bass region impedance peaks. So frequency response differences are minimal, and generally relegated to the region south of 100 Hz, where there can be a "free lunch" to the tune of an extra 1/4 to 1/3 octave extension with a low-damping-factor amp.
The following is my opinion; I can’t "prove" any of this. Consider these to be generalizations; I’m not a writer of audio prose; and [disclaimer] I'm an Atma-Sphere dealer:
With low-damping-factor tube amps, I hear more of a sense of ease and liveliness and immersion. I’m hearing more stuff going on, it’s like the voices and instruments have more texture. Music is more engaging at lower sound pressure levels, which I think is related to the low-level details not needing as much SPL in order to be audible. At high sound pressure levels the difference is arguably even more noticeable, as there is an absence of the edginess which often starts to set in as the SPL goes up. I’m hearing more of a difference in soundscape and ambience from one recording to the next, with more of a sense of being "transported into" the recording, especially when it’s a really good one. There is a powerful emotional experience (some might call it spiritual) which some music can convey, but it calls for intensity and density and freedom from distractions. The least expensive amplification I have found which can do this is low-damping-factor tubes... specifically, the Atma-Sphere S-30 and M-60 [dealer disclaimer reminder]. |
For those using Bakoon amps, here is member @jtgofish 's response to Duke's above copied post: All that is what I hear with Bakoon amplifiers.Which are class A/B but which are reputed to be zero negative feedback/high output impedance/ current drive/probably low damping factor amplifiers.In simple terms they simply sound incredibly clear and pure.Which I have really only heard elsewhere from expensive SET amps like the Kondo Ongaku. JT, thank you. |
Hi David,
Thanks for providing the 2 posts. Duke hit the nail directly on the head. When I switched from a very good push pull 100 watt tube amplifier to an 8 watt SET nearly 11 years ago this was my experience. Just as Duke describes, more musical nuance and inner detail revealed. Increased sense of performer presence. Simply more realism and definitely increased emotional connection/engagement with listening to music. Bottom line, more pure and natural sound quality.
I can now understand how the Bakoon amplifier generates similar results to a good SET amplifier (Or in Duke’s case an Atma-Sphere amplifier). Zero NFB and a higher output impedance certainly suggests that the damping factor (DF) would be relatively low. This would make it quite compatible with the Nenuphar. Makes sense to me.
Charles |
Nice to hear positive comments about the Bakoon from others. Thanks for posting David. |
Bakoon writes:
"The patent-pending JET Bias circuit has brought the SATRI circuit to a whole new level in terms of electrical performance and sound quality. Our Circuit is now reborn and renamed as the JET SATRI circuit, an ultrafast, wide bandwidth, full discrete design with zero negative feedback. It is also our first circuit that doesn't even use output emitter resistors, resulting in lower output impedance than ever before, with direct, ultra fast response to the loudspeakers."
So the 13R has "lower output impedance than ever before" which means higher damping than before. It makes one wonder what their older (and $3K more expensive) 41 amplifier would sound like with the Nenuphars.
- Robert |
Robert,
Yes,
Now I wonder exactly which Bakoon amplifier jtgofish was referring to in his response to Duke on the damping factor thread. It sure seems as though there is variance amongst the Bakoon amplifier models.
There’s the possibility that a number of them could sound excellent with the Nenuphar despite differences in the level of DF. Again one would suspect the higher output impedance Bakoon amplifiers (Lower DF) to be (In theory) the preferred choice.
Charles |
I can’t comment on the Bakoon 41 with the Nenuphar’s, I only have experienced the Bakoon 13R with the Cubes and like Srajan have found the combination to be very compatible, so there has to be other factors at play here other than DF. I believe Srajan’s preference was the 13R over the 41 but he may not have had the Cubes at that time? The 13R has the latest JET Satri circuit which makes for a very fast response, full bodied and open sound as verified by customer feedback here in the UK.
If anyone in the USA is interested in the Bakoon products, please contact Bakoon directly through their website. |
I would agree that although DF is a factor that needs consideration there are additional variables involved that also influence amplifier and Nenuphar compatibility. People are expressing happiness with the Bakoon 13R driving the Nenuphar so something is obviously going right to make this possible. Charles |
Speaking of different solid state amplifiers, I was doing some reading on damping factors and came across a link to two Gold Note amplifiers out of Italy, the IS-1000 (integrated) and the PA-1175 (power amp). Both models have a DF option which can be changed on the fly. The high setting has a DF of 250 while the low setting is at 25.
Has anybody listened to one of the Gold Note amps?
- Robert |
@rwpollock Not an answer to your question, and it's been stated earlier in the thread, but just keep in mind that adjustable damping factor and adjustable levels of negative feedback are (always?) synonyms. Might be useful for expanding your amp search if you've been looking for amps with adjustable df... |
I just ran into the damping factor thread and see the above comment was completely unnecessary. Sorry Robert. |
Hi cal, However you made a valid point. Negative feedback (NFB) level manipulation does affect these amplifier parameters. 1 Gain output decreases as NFB is increased.. 2 Output impedance decreases as NFB increases. 3 Damping Factor increases as NFB increases. Output impedance and Damping Factor have an inverse relationship. Charles' |
FYI - There are two Nenuphar active listings here on the 'Gon. Both in the Black finish. One New, the other a showroom demo. |
Thanks for the heads up David. The 1 cubic foot sealed box DIY version will be my next audio journey and it's good to see the thread staying alive. Really looking forward to the building experience. Curious if I'll be able to pull off a high gloss black piano paint job. |
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i cant interpret these specs to know how this integrated will be a good match to nenuphars. knowing that low damping factor is prefered for the nenuphars.... any help decoding these specs and opinion on compatibilty with the cubes. HD & N< 0.15 % @ 5W output, < 1 % @ 40W output < 5 % @ 52W outputInput Impedance>15 kohmsOutput Impedance<0.8 ohms (damping factor >10 reference to 8ohms load @ zero global feedback)
Thks |
Hello,
Looking at the level of the stated distortion and accompanying output impedance and damping factor of >10 (Does this mean But <20?) is consistent with a zero NFB (Or very low level of NFB). So based on these measurements they suggest that (on paper) this amplifier should be a pretty decent match with the Nenuphar. Only an educated guess as other aspects of the amplifier aren’t known. Speaker impedance =8 ohm ÷ output impedance of roughly 0.8=10 which is the DF (At least for 8 ohms).
Charles |
<<help decoding these specs and opinion on compatibility with the cubes...
Output Impedance <0.8 ohm
Damping factor >10>>
Yup, DF = 8 ohm/0.8 ohm = 10
Here are some other amps for comparison:
Mola Mola (Class D) = 0.003 ohm, so DF = 2666 <== avoid
Bryston 4B (Class AB) = 0.016 ohm, DF = 500 <== avoid
Aesthetic Atlas (zero feedback hybrid) = 0.25 ohm, DF = 32
FirstWatt SIT-3 = 0.26 ohm, DF = 31
FirstWatt SIT-1 = 0.27 ohm, DF = 30
LTA Z10 (ZOTL) = 1.2 ohms, DF = 6.7
Audio Nirvana 300B SET = 2.7 ohm, DF = 3
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