Critical listening and altered states

Equally important it is not a zero sum game.

Good points.

@mastering92

To listen critically - We need to put our energy into the power of objective reasoning and honest observations.

Here’s where you and I may see things differently. I am in the field of philosophy. Every argument which is offered, and every counter-argument claims "objective reasoning." The issue becomes, what is selected as relevant to the objective argument? What is left out? What is emphasized? The history of thought (not just philosophy) is full of people who try to claim their argument is ultimate because it is objective. But that word, objective, is just stone soup. What else is in there? That’s where the interesting stuff happens. The word objective is not a trump card among people who know how to argue.

@mikelavigne

OTOH in the particular audiophile journey i am on, i am as interested in how some change makes me feel emotionally in a right brain context, as objectively what my left brain thinks it hears. am i being drawn into the music? is my body happy?

This identifies the exact way in which objectivity hits the shoals, for me. Mike is right -- this is about mind-and-body, and since listening is also done with our body, the detachment necessary for rational objectivity is insufficient if not downright destructive of what some of us consider the experience of music.

@mastering92

What do you mean by this?

there is no winning or losing in hifi. it a hobby. no race track or finish line. it’s about enjoyment of music, and/or gear. maybe building gear, or anything related. maybe it’s about collecting, or interior design. i’ve seen and known people who have all those perspectives; either singularly or together.

and being an audiophile is simply appreciating the quality of music reproduction. it’s a perspective. your circumstances do not determine your mind set. you may have limited choices for various reasons or asset allocation decisions, but perspective is free. and there are matters of taste, preference, and musical choices and living situations that push our priorities.

so we all can approach decisions with our own method. certainly i like mine and am happy to share it and the why behind it.

and i would bet if we were to sit down face to face and discuss this issue, our approaches would have much in common.

@jdane,
"Tacitus (I think) says the Germanic tribes used to make decisions: (1) at night when they were all sh*t-faced, and (2) in the morning when they were sober. They only followed their own counsel if the decision was the same in both cases."

Thanks for sharing. Great advice that’s almost a parable for life.



@ianb52,
"There is a paradox that with certain altered states the detail of perception and emotional intensity are increased, but the ability to do focused critical listening (left brain-type activity) becomes difficult and not fun. These states can key you into what is abrasive in a system, what feels intuitively good, and what is getting in the way, but not in the usual deliberate way."


It’s difficult to describe but I think you’ve nailed it. It’s certainly problem for me and one that I try to circumvent, almost anyway, anyhow.


However, the term ’critical listening’ is almost a contradiction in terms, at least for me. I always listen better when I’m relaxed.
Therefore the two things I most like to have before sitting down to listen are a comfortable seat and as much background peace and quiet as possible.


Having said that, a degree of constant low frequency noise and chatter are ok, but no sudden alarms and no surprises. https://youtu.be/qNWE_2avJT0

To listen critically - We need to put our energy into the power of objective reasoning and honest observations.

i suppose we have ’sub-hobbies’ within our hobby of being a music loving audiophile. so there are no rules. no right or wrong approach to critical listening. no incorrect mind sets we are trying to be in.

OTOH in the particular audiophile journey i am on, i am as interested in how some change makes me feel emotionally in a right brain context, as objectively what my left brain thinks it hears. am i being drawn into the music? is my body happy?

unless i can get into a mental mode where i am capable of being open to the power of the music to capture me, my critical listening session cannot be relied on to get the whole picture. so my fist step is always making sure that i’m happy and content and comfortable......and free of distractions including excessive expectations. i need to just be listening to music with my mind free to let it happen. i call it my ’zen’ place.

after now 27 years of very serious system building and room building, this is the viewpoint i have learned that works best for me.

being cold and calculating and objective = a system result target accordingly. how can it not? which is a different result and sub-hobby than mine. and my experience tells me the stress of attempts at purely objective listening clouds the whole musical truth. we should avoid trying too hard.

i’m not saying that there are not situations that call for short term objective listening; for instance whenever i’m setting up a cartridge there is a degree of objective analysis going on. but it’s not how i would make a larger system direction decision or gear choice. if i’m not enjoying my critical listening session, how often am i capable of doing it?

my really extended critical listening sessions are likely my most satisfying periods of my audiophile experience. and leave me feeling fulfilled and in a great place mentally.

YMMV.

More good stuff.

@vinocour 

When I evaluate gear or make buying decisions that are chemically enhanced, even slightly, I often do not agree with myself when the enhancement has worn off or I listen to a choice over time. I currently never make buying decisions while in an enhanced state.

Agree. My OP is not necessarily asking, "Do you rely *totally* on enhancements to evaluate gear or decide on a purchase?" That seems like an easy thing to decline. The question is about prompting oneself to see all possible angles (at some point) for an evaluative judgement later on, in a (likely) a sober state of mind.

@oregonpapa papa

I tried pot once. It made me want to rape and kill.

Interesting. Made me want to doodle and canoodle. Perhaps alert your local Sheriff about those underlying tendencies?
 
@old_ears 

Is your "pleasure" from evaluating, or being one with the sound...mutually exclusive, both can be fulfilling. Give me both grasshopper!

Agree. Evaluation can be a means to an end or an end in itself. Honestly, I do enjoy evaluating for its own sake and also as a tool to improve  immersive listening. My OP is asking about whether the technologies of occasional psychological enhancement can improve evaluative listening done for the purpose of better immersive listening.

@mastering92 

If I’m listening to audio gear for the purpose of evaluating it, I am completely focused on objective performance. I don’t need coffee or anything else to concentrate.

Right. The question isn't about the ability to concentrate. I think most here can do that, as it's something we learned in elementary school. This is about whether the deliveries of focus can be expanded and enriched by finding ways beyond existing prejudices and preconceptions. (This is how we gain an appreciation for things we either disregarded or formed a rash opinion about.) But this is probably just autobiographical, that is, about my own expectation that while I'm a pretty good listener, I'd be able to surpass my present abilities if I reconsider what I'm doing once in a while. I get the sense that you're way past me, because your statement indicates that you have become a master listener whose abilities needs nothing -- not even coffee -- as they have reached the zenith. If that is true, congratulations; you are a master sommelier of sound.

"Well, class...what have we learned?"

To each, their own.

The Search brings you to what you seek.  Hopefully....

...except.....for some....who always will find 'the Next Level' a mere point to leap to the next....What... ;)

Enjoy, J *S*

Even the right CBD will make your hearing more acute like THC does

I've always thought of it more as cathartic.

What’s a goal, if not the goal, of audio? To produce a euphoric state. It seems there are many paths towards that goal, and that they may overlap.

    A certain revered string agitator once said: "are you experienced? not necessarily stoned, but experienced?"  Pleasure without analysis is immersive listening- the right brain; critical listening- the left...  Actually producing music by a trained performer-both sides now.
  Is your "pleasure" from evaluating, or being one with the sound...mutually exclusive, both can be fulfilling.  Give me both grasshopper!

It doesn't alter your state of mind, but I must say that the big jar of CBD cream that my daughter bought me does wonders on my knee pain and my neuropathy suffering feet. Pain is gone about 20-30 minutes after application. Highly recommended.

Frank

...I just do my best to keep it out of the minds of those who would merely abuse it....a bit of Service to the States....*s*

@grannyring

just now, i did try the Quboz 16/44 streaming version of track #11 of Sempre Libera, and i also heard the extreme distortion pulse on peaks. very annoying. sorry about that. i do not recall ever hearing that.

my guess is that either it’s simply a bad transfer, or possibly this recording has no limiters used and it’s too hot somehow. it might be fun to question Quboz about why that is happening and see how they respond.

to make sure this was a Quboz issue, i also sampled my dsd and 24/88 files and they played perfectly as always.

please let me know how the redbook sounds. thanks.

Weed, shrooms, mdma and ketamine. All different and all incredible when done right. Ket does make it hard to change the record, best get it done before your bump hits. But then you are just so present in the moment and able to appreciate music in ways you never could have imagined.
Lsd often takes me to a place where music makes little sense, unlike shrooms or majic truffles. the ultimate is combining mdma and shrooms, or mandy and k, but only when safely at home- unlike mdma, k is a party killer and was banned from our raves and festivals. Too much stumbling. But fun at home or in a safe environment.

Friends,
When I evaluate gear or make buying decisions that are chemically enhanced, even slightly, I often do not agree with myself when the enhancement has worn off or I listen to a choice over time.  I currently never make buying decisions while in an enhanced state.

When I evaluate gear or make buying decisions when I am in a naturally clear, settled and analytic state of mind, then the music is almost always engaging and satisfying when I am listening in an enhanced state. 

For me personally, my mood is important for the selection of what I listen to.  Sometimes late Beethoven string quartets transport me to someplace heavenly, sometimes I do not have the "ears" to listen for more than 2-3 minutes.  Sometimes it is Phillip Glass or Avro Paert.  Sometimes it isn't classical.  Rather Patricia Barber or other vocal jazz does it, or instrumental jazz like Oded Tzur, sometime I need Pink Floyd, or The Rolling Stones, or Tina Dico, or ambient electronic, or Indonesian Gammelan Orchestra, or Carnatic music . . . .  Yes, my tastes are varied and eclectic.

Listening for pleasure, to be nourished is a different kind of endeavor compared to listening to compare components.  Both of these listening contexts can be completely enjoyable and satisfying yet they are quite different.

I know I will never hear "the best" anything, only what pleases me the most at the time of listening based on my personal preferences and state of mind.

So much enjoyment and nourishment in music well performed, well recorded and well reproduced.  To each his own.

@oregonpapa 

You had the good stuff!

Psilocybin mushrooms were a lot of fun. Humans have been using them for thousands of years. THC is here to stay and will be legal everywhere soon enough. On 5 mg I am perfectly functional and the pain I have does not interfere with me as much. If you don't smoke it it is much less dangerous than alcohol. Long term effects? The long term effect of being alive is death. There is nothing fun about aging. I know many very smart successful people who use THC on a regular basis. Might they be more successful not using? Maybe but, who cares. 

My own ability to analyze the quality of a recording or system does not change with lower doses of THC. It might even improve a little. With alcohol I just fall asleep. I never have more than one glass of wine. I use to like scotch but for some reason it makes me sick now, probably aging again. For me the main benefit of THC is that pain interferes less with my ability to perform in the shop or on a bicycle. 

I see there are still Victorians among us. The only thing prohibition ever did for us is explode crime. Why give the criminals something to make money on when we can sell it for less and tax it at 50% to boot. We can use everyone's addiction to pave some roads.  

I tried pot once. It made me want to rape and kill.

Frank

Initially became an audiophile through exclusive listening to first and only audiophile system in my circle of friends while on hash/honey oil  or hashish. The shock of discovering high quality sound, much new music and genres of music, and the buzz from the medication all compounded into meditative states with the right music.
My need for altered state prior to listening sessions continued for many years as a result of prior peak experiences from the early listening sessions. Over time repeated exposure to same experience grew old and tired. Then, being 'straight' became the new altered state, this coincided with period of much critical listening. Wholesale changes, systems never in static, I'd often start drinking later in session in attempt to mitigate what I didn't like.

In time, as I learned to put together a coherent system I found myself increasingly immersed in music, not needing much in the way of added enhancement to 'straight' mind. Over the past few years, my system has exclusively delivered an altered state. I may have one or two bourbon based cocktails over five to six hour listening session, so may have a slight impact on state of mind.

The altered state my system, more importantly the music delivers to me is most similar to what I feel when alone out in nature. The world becomes a wonderful, beautiful place for me. Sometimes, with some special music I can even believe that I somehow know the performer, and/or they know me. And so now, far more than my state of mind affecting my perception of music, it is now the music that affects my state of mind, or altered state.

Thanks for the tips. Whiskey flavors are so distinctive it is great in the sense you can find "the one" that is pure magic which I always imagined but never experienced until Angel's Envy. Delicious! Found myself holding it in my hand allowing the warmth to release more aroma, which made it like slow-motion sipping enjoying the smell as much as the taste, then holding it in my mouth putting off swallowing as long as possible because then that wonderful flavor goes down the gullet. But then comes the warmth and the finish, the lingering never-ending finish. Have I mentioned I like this stuff???!😍 

Just found Metropolitan Market has a bottle and not far from home! Will keep those others in mind for my next visit to Mikelavigne's tasting, er I mean listening room.😁

@millercarbon Lagavulin is close to the tops for me; 16 years and ready for love. I'm also a big Talisker fan. Laphroig is too smoky/peaty but those others march me up as close as I need.

It's interesting how different people take the question in opposite directions. It's an interesting question, not because it questions the use of mind altering substances, but because it opens the door to questioning the mind itself. What's the difference between the music and your mind? Can they be separated? I hope these are not debatable questions.

My condolences to anyone who would use the term "pothead" in a thread like this. 

Cannabis and music have gone together for me since I was a teenager, and I just turned 70. That's for either listening at home or going to a gig.... Used to enjoy music with acid and 'shrooms, but it's been 3 or 4 decades since I indulged in those! 

Mike Lavigne, thanks for your thoughtful response. This is what makes audio so much fun.  Music lovers like us, and lucky enough to have a decent playback  system, seek out this knowledge from those who have been there, done that.  Great topic.  Personally, I don’t “enjoy “ critical listening. It’s just one of those things, skills,  we need for evaluation. Some folks have the golden ears and some don’t, it seems.  So all your suggestions are indeed, helpful!
 I love my system, room…and I really enjoy having my Audiofoo friends over for a long evening of good tunes, refreshments and whatever enhances the experience. FYI, last night I played The Pusher, by Steppenwolf, as a warning to all my crazy friends.  

@mikelavigne 

I will buy the CD and rip it.  I had some friends with differing systems play the same track on Qobuz and Tidal. Same popping result.  The distortion shut down my amp! It was at moderate listening levels. When she reaches her strongest and highest notes the fluttering starts! 

I find my enjoyment of music, the emotional content of the music, the power, subtlety and beauty of the music, is considerably enhanced by the occasional application of a little grandpa weed (low TCH, high CBD).
Am I listening more critically or more accurately? Who cares? The point is to create a more emotional reaction to the music in that moment.

"Drugs, gamblin’, sex, traveling, anything that is a problem in someone else’s life, is a problem in everyone’s life.. EXCEPT the person in denial.."

All that weed is clouding your sense of reality old boy.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Thanks for confirming what I said. So with you it’s, gambling, traveling or drugs (god forbid a sex nut (one of the worst besides gamblers).

I was a shop steward for many years. The worst thing was telling a lady why her husband was being arrested at WORK for stealing thousands of gallons of fuel behind GAMBELING. One of several I knew. This guy even sold the tire chains off the rig in Reno and couldn't leave unless he was chained up.. THAT'S what started the whole 4 year sentence, in Quentin. He got violent with the cops.. I don't think he would have done time, if not for that stupid screw up.. 4 years...

The guy I was just working for squandered, millions from a company and lost a franchise behind TRAVELING, to nowhere just to travel. LOOK at a picture for god sakes..

Weed.. it is a gift from my forefather along with tobacco to the western world from the native folks that were here before. The other side of my lineage brought booze to the Americas.. oh yes.. I stay away from it all together.. No Beer, No Wine, no Strong drink.. My green eyed black Irish father taught me that. Quite the war hero, quite the drunk. I loved HIM not his drinkin’.. I’m surprised my sweet mother didn’t light the bed on fire..

Confused? NO!!

Informed, yes. AND when you find and OLD boy you know what to do with HIM don’t you..

I think I’ll get altered AGAIN and go feed the chickens.. Water melon eatin’ chickens..

Lagavulin, eh?  https://youtu.be/frbsZ8TGsX8

@millercarbon

I really want to know Mikelavigne is where oh where can I get me some of that Angel’s Envy???

i’ve not purchased any Angel’s Envy for a few years, and had to get those ’Finished Rye’ versions you seemed to like, on line a few years back.

not looked for it lately. my go-to is Lagavulin to be honest.

i do like my bottled water as the main thing for listening. a sniff, then a sip of a single malt can set the mood from time to time....but only a sip. 

Something not addressed regarding the altered states of critical creation.  Much of the music we adore comes at the detriment of the artist who created it.

There is an interesting article about Charlie Parker and how his heroin addiction contributed to his genius.
https://nypost.com/2017/02/05/charlie-parkers-heroin-addiction-helped-make-him-a-genius/

Jimi Hendrix, Amy Winehouse, Kurt Cobain.  

Was Rickie Lee Jones much more creative as an alcoholic?
The Beatles took a lot of hallucinogenic (and other) drugs to create some of the best music of all time.

I'm not suggesting opioid use for anyone but alternate states of mind can allow you to make connections that weren't there previously.  They can be a training tool to help you listen differently.  

Whether you imbibe, don't imbibe believe in power cables or not it's all a personal choice.  We still have the ability to choose.

I really miss these artists but would I if they hadn't partook in the poison that killed them? 

I like the way the guy with the best selection of liquor I ever seen right outside his listening room door chooses instead from a range of fine bottled water. Scratch that. Not seen. Tasted. Enjoyed. Relished. He also has some to die for master tapes. But what I really want to know Mikelavigne is where oh where can I get me some of that Angel’s Envy???

@grannyring

Too bad the streaming versions of Anna Netrebko, Sempre Libera distort terribly. Sounds like she is clipping her mic. Not sure, but not playable at moderately loud levels. First time I have heard this sort of popping/fluttering distortion when streaming. Both Tidal and Qobuz have the same issue with this recording.

tonight when i get home i will try the Tidal and Quboz versions of that cut and compare them to my dsd and 24/88 files and report back. i don’t recall those artifacts from the streaming versions, but it’s been awhile since i listened to them.

if you can download the file, it’s a worthy recording to own if you like the music.

i’ve been using this cut as a reference for over 10 (maybe 15) years now. initially it was the SACD disc that i used. i would listen to both the dsd and redbook layers. then later i got the 24/88 file and found it was clearly better as it was the native file. then when i got my MSB Select II (a bit-perfect dac) the native file was even better by a larger margin.

none of those versions ever had distortion like the clipping you are describing. it was more levels of clarity and degrees of delicacy.

"Drugs, gamblin’, sex, traveling, anything that is a problem in someone else’s life, is a problem in everyone’s life.. EXCEPT the person in denial.."

All that weed is clouding your sense of reality old boy.

When first starting my journey in pursuit of audio excellence tone controls were tabu. I have always stayed on course with that philosophy. The sound in a good system does not need to be altered nor does my listening ability.

Too bad the streaming versions of Anna Netrebko, Sempre Libera distort terribly. Sounds like she is clipping her mic. Not sure, but not playable at moderately loud levels. First time I have heard this sort of popping/fluttering distortion when streaming. Both Tidal and Qobuz have the same issue with this recording. 

Tell me about it when you try and flip the record, fumble, and then have to decide if you should raid the 529 account or not.  I tease.    

That said, listening in altered states takes the gear not just to another level, but a whole new perspective, and increases the joy of not just the equipment, but the music, the lyrics, and reflections on life in general.  Also, when you want to buckle down in life, rediscovering certain sounds and music in complete sobriety can also be cathartic.    

In bumbling feeble attempt to answer the original question...

For true critical listening I believe that completely sober is the way to go.

Ok, now that we got that out of the way, I also believe that a little buzz can add enjoyment to the experience.  And I have heard things that I didn't notice in a sober state.  I attempt to take note and at some later
sober date see if it sounds the same as buzzed.

BTW I'm chuckling at myself as I type "buzz" and "sober" because I only alter my states in a very minor enjoyable way.  The days of getting blasted and listening to music are far behind me now.

Regards,
barts