Cornwall IV vs. Volti Rival, Razz; Razz v. 1, 2, 3 -- what changed?

I never felt the Forte model was in the class of the other Heritage models. In fact, it took years since it’s introduction for Klipsch to proclaim the Forte model as a "Heritage". I always added internal bracing to the cabinets (as well as my damping procedures), and mostly, elevated them on cinderblocks with material between the Forte and the blocks. A much better presentation. Keep them far from the rear wall, whenever possible. These were for clients of mine who had them. Me, I started with CW verticals, CW horizontals (standard), Lascala, Khorn, and now back to Lascala. I love the Lascala design. I love my system.

That would just be confusing.

Yes, looking forward to your impressions.

@silverfoxvtx1800 Please post notes after you have had time to settle things in and had a chance to go back and forth a few times? Thanks.

It is interesting that Greg is showing a midrange driver of his covered with Dynamat damping material. Bravo

I've never been entirely satisfied with the construction of Klipsch speakers, despite owning one currently and in the past. However, it's important to acknowledge that most speakers, regardless of their price (mine go up to $20k), have identifiable flaws.

The owner points out all the flaws of the company he learned from and copied. It shows a level of no-holds- barred bravery that caters perfectly to the high testosterone ballers like we are. I'd love to see a durability test, like driving a truck over the speakers, and sharing that on YouTube. Or even better, let's have the Audiophiliac put on some football pads and crush those boxes. I'd happily contribute $100 to see either of these happen.

@bodega Thanks for pointing out the change. Now it only strongly implies that they’re made it China.

The Klipsch company is coy about revealing where their speakers are made, or perhaps more importantly where parts of their speakers are made. It is possible to say that a speaker is made by craftspeople in Hope, AR, while many of the parts of the speaker, including the cabinet are made elsewhere. It is no secret that Klipsch has parts and in some cases whole speakers made in China. They may not want people to know or to focus on that fact, and I can understand that – fair enough. But here’s a point that I’ll make which is much more important than whether or not they are made in China. When it comes to the low-quality construction of the Forte cabinet, I would submit that it would be better for Klipsch if they came out and stated that it was built in China.  That way they would at least have an excuse for the poor quality.  To say that the cabinet of the Forte, which I think is among the lowest quality speaker cabinets ever made, is made by the craftspeople in the shop in Hope, AR is an insult to those good folks.  If the Klipsch company handed their employees the keys and asked them to build a speaker cabinet, I don’t believe they would choose to build them with the cheap press-board material that is used in the Forte.

This is the tactic that we see in journalism called, "Just asking questions..." (As in, "Is Politician X truly born in the USA? Some say yes, but others say know. Just asking questions.)

Obviously, he could have just removed any of this triggering language related to "China" and just talk about the specific construction of the speakers -- as Danny of GR Research does. Just compare apples with apples and leave the triggering language out of it. If the cabinets are badly made, who cares where they were badly made -- unless you're trying to get some ideological mileage out of sentiments about China. 

My original setup was Node 2I, Audio Research LS2, Parasound A21 with CW IV tilted in passed listening position. Imaging was not precise, but the sound stage was immersive. It made walls disappeared. 

With the addition of Pontus II, CW IV tilted in before listening position, every instrument sounded the way it should, more real, as the band is there in my living room.

Switched to the  Willsenton R8 om triode mode, the slight fatigue went away after rolled with many different tubes, 6550, EL34, 6SL7 and 6SN7 of different brands. However, the music does not sound real anymore. 

Changed the R8 to Muzishare X9 with 300B, the magic returns. No doubt different tubes yield different sound characteristics, I finally settle with the Linai B300B-H, I forgot to mention somewhere alone added the REL HT-10.

Someone mentioned the CW IV 15-inch woofer is not sufficient for bass. Well, I had similar thought for a while. It all changed after I added the SMSL PL200 into the system. CD are practically collecting dusk. Once a while, the OPPO Blu Ray player used as transport to play some old CD. The new PL200 has no sub out, nor the the Pontus II. I didn't feel anything was missing in the bass region. The CW IV is fast, kick drum, snare drum, different bass nodes are clearly distinguished. The treat off is badly recorded CD will now be more stand out but non musically fatiguing. 

BlueSound is great and quick in response to questions. With the mini optical out of the Node 2i to PL200 Optical in and optical out to Pontus II, the REV sub is now also involved. Count this a very happy CW IV customer. Almost forgot to mention CW customer services is also top notch. 

Apparently Volti is aware of this thread.  Looks like the page is different now.

Volti Audio Razz vs. Klipsch Forte Quality of Cabinets

Well I have been in the klipsch camp for many years until recently. And if I decide to go back to horns again, a Volti product is definitely in my future.

Someone likely made fun of me and deleted it. I invited some gummies over to chill. I supposed we were. 😂🤣🙈🙉🙊😂🤣

I just got it....duh🤔

@bjesien lol

@bjesien That is awesome. That is a legitimate Klipsch Heritage sticker, as I have seen hundreds of them, and they are not dinosaur stickers either, as you have a pair of the IVs, correct? All folks have to do is look at your system page and see for themselves. This has been sickening to me, that one man could have been mistaken, or was in a very competitive mood when he wrote that. My mid 80s Lascalas have similar labels. After this, maybe we can back to the best speaker option for the OP. Thank you @bjesien Enjoy ! BTW, it did not make sense to me to photograph my labels and post, as this was about Fortes specifically.

@mrdecibel 

Done. It's probably a vintage sticker lol.

I wonder if Greg Roberts is aware of this thread/discussion ?

@bjesien As you attached photos of your room/equipment (very nice btw) here, you can post it on your systems page, and when everyone is satisfied with the truth, you can always delete it. That would be a great end to this. TY in advance. MrD.

If I could post a photo, there is a label on the back of the Forte IV that says the cabinets are made by craftsman in Hope Arkansas. 

@bodega

@mrdecibel

I’d be interested in solid fact. I am inclined to believe that Volti’s facts are correct, if only because claiming it on a public facing website -- in a post clearly advantaging his own, competing product -- would be a huge negative if it proved false. I also imagine that after upgrading Klipsch for so many years, he knows the provenance of the parts. It would improve the Volti website to link to the proof or cite it, I think. The adjectives describing the cheapness of construction seem a bit questionable. One could communicate their inferiority with a gentler touch. But that’s just my opinion.

hilde45 - I am also interested to know where the Forte cabinets are made.  It seems strange that nobody here can confirm or refute Volti's claim conclusively.  I've been looking around the web and can't find a definitive answer as to where Forte cabinets are built.  

The fact that GR indicated China manufacturing of a Heritage product, which was bad enough based on a falsehood or misinformation, it was how he described the wood as being one step above, over cardboard. Not right, even if he thought so. Interesting story of how and why he developed the Lascala, and I love the design. I can find fault in every budget loudspeaker, $15K being budget nowadays. Talking about why US companies move manufacturing to China, whether politically correct or not, should not be a surprise. I know of so many Chinese produced products that are excellent. I few months ago I sold my Jungson JA99C power amp to a local individual. It is a very heavy beast and ran way too hot for my situation, considering I leave solid state on 24/7 (the build quality and beauty is incredible). The heatsinks has very little ringing, compared to many. I am looking to sell a few more 70+ pounders for this reason (and this is not an advertisement of sale, as I only sell locally, as I do not ship any longer). The 99C is a great amp, and imo, ime, and in my system, it embarrassed much more expensive products, made here in the good old USA (will not mention brands nor models). The buyer came to my home to listen to it and was flabbergasted at what he heard. Coincidently he also owns Lascalas, and I helped him tweak his pair (at no cost other than material). At his home, he is a collector as I am. He replaced a Levinson with the 99C and could not be happier (I concur). Wow, talk about being long winded. My best always, MrD.

@bolong

The website you linked to says,

"Many Klipsch speakers are made in the USA with global materials, however, in recent years, they’ve moved some manufacturing overseas to countries like China. Their speakers within their Heritage line, along with many of their cinema and reference speakers, are still made in America."

That is a piece of evidence, though it’s not coming from Klipsch. Not bad, though. @badgerdms

I can tell you that I have seen how Volti does things...Whether he’s building them by hand or using CNC machines the birch plywood he uses is as solid as it comes.

That’s very nice to know. I’m interested, however, in the claim on Volti’s website (a) that the Forte cab’s are made in China and (b) are "just a step above the highest grade of cardboard" and [cabinet construction] that "falls into the lowest end of that range" and that the it is not "possible to build a cheaper cabinet and have it still function as a speaker cabinet."

Some evidence has been produced here indicating the Volti claim about Klipsch coming from China is false. Some people are testifying to the solidity of their own speakers. We have not yet seen evidence that the Klipsch cabs for the Fortes are made in China, and we have Volti’s testimony that they’re flimsy.

@hilde45 I can't tell you where the Klipsch cabinets are made, outside of telling you that my pair of Forte IIIs looked great and seemed well constructed.  

I can tell you that I have seen how Volti does things, having been to Greg's Baxter facility twice.  Whether he's building them by hand or using CNC machines the birch plywood he uses is as solid as it comes.  You can see what his speakers actually look like unadorned by looking at the pictures of his "Decorator" Razz speakers (some listed under speakers for sale).   But to me, that's not the way to go because his work with veneers is artisan quality.  The number of folks who come into my house and just gawk at the Rosewood Rivals is crazy (although my wife wishes they were smaller).  

And just to get this out of the way--I like the Forte IIIs.  Greg also likes the Forte IIIs.  They are a ton of fun.  But if you want to love your speakers and have something that you can live with forever, any of the Volit models are the way to go.

Does anyone here have the boxes their Forte speakers came in?  Perhaps it says on the box where they were made and a picture of that could be provided.  

Klipsch Production

Also remember just because something is made here doesn't automatically mean it's of higher quality. We know how to do "cheap" in the USA too....

@silverfoxvtx1800 

That's a really great quote -- which doesn't address the main issue. While it's great to see all the things Volti is improving over Klipsch, and people can decide for themselves about those differences (they seem significant), the key question is untouched by that quote. The question was raised below about a claim on Volti’s website, viz.,

Volti website: "The Klipsch Forte cabinet is made in China of material that is just a step above the highest grade of cardboard. In this industry, there is a range of quality in cabinet construction from lowest to highest, and when it comes to wooden speaker cabinets, the Klipsch Forte cabinet falls into the lowest end of that range. I don’t think it is possible to build a cheaper cabinet and have it still function as a speaker cabinet."

This is a matter of simple fact -- about the quality and provenance of Klipsch cabinets (Good/US vs. Cheap/China). If folks could know the basis of this claim on Volti’s website about this issue that would end that debate, here.

What Greg first did was fix some friends' older Khorns by designing a replacement horn for them.  His horns were such a dramatic improvement over the original that he realized he could build a better speaker.  From his background in building furniture, his choice of real wood and superb veneers are far superior to anything Klipsh has to offer.  His horns are next level--just speak through one of his and one designed by Klipsch (one sounds like a natural voice, one does not), and the bass (both amount and integration with the midrange horn) are much improved.

Everything that Volti does in its design improves upon Klipsch,  if that's copying in your book, stick with the Cornwalls and be happy.

What I see here is Greg open his own business by copying Klipsch speakers. Someone is spreading falsehoods about his competition to help bolster his sales. Without hearing both sets of speakers together with the same songs and amps. I would not jump in. Opinions are like, you know the rest, everyone has one. What someone likes another could hate. It took a while to get may Corns. to sound great to me. I made my own interconnects Bought twisted silver speaker wire from a site online 14 ga. I found that some of the expensive wires were not better just looked good and were a lot more money . Check it out for yourselves and don’t believe everything you read.

Can't directly compare to the Cornwalls, but I did own the Forte III's that I actually traded to Greg as part of a deal to buy a pair of Razz speakers.  I did a quick review for Greg (and my local audio group) on the differences between the Forte III's and the initial Razz speakers.  This is on Greg's Volti page, but here's what I said--

I recently purchased a pair of Razz speakers from Greg–here’s my initial take. They replaced a pair of Klipsch Forte IIIs . . .

Continue Reading

The bass response on the Razz is much better. For some reason, you look at the woofer on the Forte III’s and the giant passive radiator on the back and you expect a lot of bass, but it really doesn’t happen. Maybe pushed about 10” off the wall, but leads to other issues. I never minded the bass on the Klipsch but the Razz are clearly more prominent in the bass response. What really stands out is the integration between the upper bass and lower midrange. I’m hearing details in this area that I NEVER heard out of the Klipsch.

The imaging is also much better on the Razz. They throw a nice wide sound stage in which all the images are clearly firmly locked in place. That just isn’t something the Klipsch did all that well.

For me, the biggest improvement is how real the instruments sound coming out of the Razz. The horns sound like they are in the room with you. Acoustic guitars are right on. Combined with better detail coming out of the Razz, this is where the two speakers are the most different. The number of times I heard a detail or a separation of voices on the Razz that I have never noticed on the Forte III’s was astounding.  And there is no upper midrange glare of any kind on the Razz. The volume goes up and it’s just as listenable as at lower levels.

 The Razz are simply better speakers.

This was the Razz V1.  The V2 changed the tweeters that Greg used, if there is a V3 I'm going to guess it involves a small tweak to the crossover, which I would not sweat at all.  I ended up trading the Razz back to Greg for a pair of Rival SEs, which I love.  Finally, if you like Volti, I can't see you liking Fyne.  I have a local dealer who carries them and I HATE them.  Boring and uninvolving, the complete opposite of Volti--FWIW.  If you are curious, here are the Rivals that I bought (in the middle of COVID).

https://voltiaudio.com/RivalSErosewood.shtml

As a Klipsch follower/user/tweaker/modifier/listener of 56 years, who has met PWK on a couple of occasions during my life, I feel saddened by what I read from Greg Roberts. If not for the horn design of PWK, Roberts would not have his Vittora model. Secondly, Roberts puts a huge amount of money into the cabinets, no doubt, but the customer is paying for it. And finally, I have respected Roberts since his beginnings, but after reading his words as a manufacturer disparaging the Klipsch company that he copied for his design, I am besides myself. I always wanted a pair of Vittoras, but now, would never purchase a Volti product. In conclusion, I feel Greg Roberts should apologize for his nasty, inaccurate words. There, I said it. My best to all.....Enjoy ! MrD.

Your right about the grills but i fixed mine. From the back gently push on the material until it's free from the wood. it's tacky so let it go back freely it reseated itself. Hope it works for you

The Heritage line is still made in the US .   The cabinets are made here, woofer is made my Eminence in KY , mid is made by Celestion for Klipsch.   

I've had Forte IV since they came out and they've been great.   I paid $3k plus a pair of H3 I had for five years.   

Yes the Volti are nice but they have gone up a lot in the past few years.  Out of many people's reach.   If I could buy a mint used pair right ,  I probably would. 

https://youtu.be/ln_ONxCGapo?si=jW0X7TtdyQUGMqnD

Wow! That's really surprising and disappointing.

@mrdecibel either you or Volti are correct on this.

YOU: The Klipsch Heritage series cabinets are made here, as are the pro and cinema lines.

or

Volti website: "The Klipsch Forte cabinet is made in China of material that is just a step above the highest grade of cardboard.  In this industry, there is a range of quality in cabinet construction from lowest to highest, and when it comes to wooden speaker cabinets, the Klipsch Forte cabinet falls into the lowest end of that range.  I don’t think it is possible to build a cheaper cabinet and have it still function as a speaker cabinet."

The Klipsch Heritage series cabinets are made here, as are the pro and cinema lines. All of the others are made in China. At one point Klipsch used 3/4 Baltic Birch. To the individual who has the Belles, damp the horns and purchase an RSL 12s subwoofer. An awesome cohesive fit with the Klipsch dog houses. My best, MrD.

Don't believe everything said here.The klipsch cabs are not made in China My IVs are 3 years old look and sound amazing.

That is on Volti's website. Are you saying that Mr. Roberts has an inaccurate statement on his website? That would be a serious accusation. But if you do a little research, you'll see that there are many people claiming this, some with proof. So, there's that, and Mr. Roberts seems like he actually knows what he's talking about.

I can’t speak to the quality of the cabinets themselves, but the veneer used on modern heritage speakers is very thin and prone to scratching and damage very easily. Many people have reported this as well.

Don't believe everything said here.The klipsch cabs are not made in China My IVs are 3 years old look and sound amazing . Every upgrade whether better wires and interconnects only makes them sound better. Not knowing the quality of the  equipment, room size and positioning of the  speakers, and above all the quality of the recordings, makes a lot of these conversations mute. IVs cater more to live music, Unplugs and classics.Good quality recordings of any music will not disappoint. Good amps and preamps can really create great soundstage and holographics I use Mcintosh power and mcintosh tube preamp with an old Yamaha 120 sub. to push my IVs. Fault can be found in any speaker no matter the price. But the Corns. at 6500.00 are hard to beat.

Looks interesting. But truly an unknown and probably no way to audition unless you are local.