Constant noisy tubes maybe go solid state?

Could be. Likewise as long as long you buy from a reputable dealer and he insures that the tube tests unused and measures within industry guidelines it is NOS

facten1

... as long you buy from a reputable dealer and he insures that the tube tests unused and measures within industry guidelines it is NOS ...

NOS = New Old Stock
Used ≠ New

@cleeds I agree with this 100%.
Interestingly, in the tube re-seller world, there seems to be a propensity to label tubes as NOS. These very tubes are in fact used and measure as if new. I guess if one questions how many tubes from the 1950’s -1970’s have survived brand new in a box (that have NEVER been inserted into a tube socket), the answer to what is going on becomes more clear. Not saying i totally agree with the practice, but how many times has one bought a NOS tube and looked at the pins to see that they are brand new....I know I have bought these from so-called ’reputable’ tube re-sellers and the tube pins are anything but brand new! I was disclosed that they come in an original box ( mostly) and they test as new. ( which is also a ’relative’ term).

And next, when we use the term quiet or noisy are we talking solely about the hiss in the speaker drivers ?

A noisy tube will be just that. It will raise the noise floor through your system. IOW, where your system once had a black background, there is now a layer of noise. In a worst case scenario you will hear some tube rush through the speakers.
Amps, preamps, phonostages with high gain will make the noise from a tube more audible. A phonostage with it’s high amount of gain should always use tubes that have been noise-tested.

Even true NOS tubes in original boxes can have a degree of noise.

True NOS has little to do with test results. True NOS is a tube which has never been in a circuit other than a tester, which can be hard to discern at times. Most true NOS come with original boxes. Being NOS doesnt make the tube better it just means that the tube has never been used. Tests NOS is not true NOS. "NOS in white boxes" is rare and it is a misleading and some would say dishonest claim.

Further, I have seen up to a 20 to 25% variation in the test levels of true NOS tubes from the same family and manufacturer. Add to this the fact that each tester is idiosyncratic by tube type and you quickly understand that the average NOS reading listed of a particular tube is kind of a fiction. 

You hit the nail on the head. You have way too much gain for the amplifier. Check with Mike at quicksilver 

@sounds_real_audio  already asked him about it. He said his design is good and not to mess with it. I may add my Schiit Sys in between the QS and the Odyssey to pull gain down and quell the start up POP when the QS comes on (Odyssey recommends leaving the amplifier on 24/7). Not sure if the SYS will be any better than putting rothwell attenuators in after the QS which I have done and seemed to reduce the hiss but also the dynamics a little
bit.

@tvad  I had a Freya + Vidar combo and was super not impressed. The Freya was untouchably hot and the tubes included were junk. I tried to make it all work but ultimately sent it all back. Seems like they have gotten it figured out but but I don’t know. As stated earlier I am strongly considering a Don Sachs PH14 but that wouldn’t be until end of next year at the soonest.
As for the QS, I didn’t really know about gain until I got it so my ignorance is my fault. Like I said though it specs out almost exactly the same as the Candela which was the original goal. Sometimes I think I made a mistake, but then I’m using a high gain amp with high sensitivity speakers (speakers were not what I originally was going to get but o feel I made the right choice with what I have).

@gochurchgo 

i can strongly recommend the don sachs unit - aside from the superb sound, he can specifically use the correct capacitors to do proper gain and impedance matching to your amp

don likes tubed power amps though... in one recent exchange i have had with him he (semi) jokingly says 'well ya know all solid state amps kinda suck, right?' hahahaha

Bottom line is either you don't mind messing with tubes or you're done
with it. Personally I have x amount of stereo enjoyment time. I
sold the Cary and moved to Pass. To each his own. Good luck!

@jjss49  I’ve heard that about Don. Mike is the same way. If I were to add a tubed power amp it would probably be one of Don’s although Mike’s are also highly regarded.

@gochuchgo
I have lowered the gain on my phono preamp swapping the 12AX7 with a 12AU7. You might see if you can do the same with the QS line stage!

12AX7 gain of 100
12AT7 gain of 60
12AY7 gain of 45
12AU7 gain of 19

@yogiboy  are you still using a QS phono stage?

@gochurchgo
Yes! The gain was too much with the cartridge that I use so I swapped to a lower gain tube in the phono preamp!

Churchgent,
I posted my recommended and not recommended brands for
your review. This advice was apparently too specific for this
group as it was removed. Good luck to you. I am done with this
forum.

I have always wondered why people go with tube amplifiers rather than going with more up to date technologies.  There must be a reason why.  I wonder what the sound difference is?  I would think a good DAC would work just fine.  However, I am new to this hobby and need to learn more.

second Brent Jesse

@larry5729 

I have always wondered why people go with tube amplifiers rather than going with more up to date technologies. There must be a reason why. I wonder what the sound difference is? 

larry - we are not deaf :)

@larry5729 
Personally I prefer solid state powering my dedicated home theater.  And for music much prefer the tonality and nuances to an all tube analog front end.  

@larry5729
Here ya go!
https://www.collectorsweekly.com/articles/could-an-old-school-tube-amp-make-the-music-you-love-sound...

@yogiboy  I reached out to Mike to verify I can run a lower power tube. Hopefully gear back soon.

Thanks aj523.  I have an ARCAM AVR550 for my home theater and use this also for music.  I have not installed the two rear surround system speakers so all of my sound is coming from the front speakers.  Actually, the sound is really good  I have a pair of Paradym 85F towers, but added a pair of REL S2 SHO subwoofers.  These really helped the sound stage and took some weight off the towers to clear up the mids and highs.  I dialed in the volume of the RELs to 40% so they would not sound too bassy and they seem to blend well.  I would like to have a dedicated two channel system after adding the rear surround speakers, but do not know how to do this from one pair of speakers and subs without having to reconnect the speaker wires each time I want to listen to  2 channel.  I did like the Parasound integrated amp.  The ARCAM AVR850 has the G technology which provides the first 50 watts in pure A quality amplification.  However, this costs $6,000.  Everything in this hobby costs a lot.  I also added a BlueSound Node 2i and the high res and MQA really adds to the quality.  I was talked into adding a ProJect S2 DAC and I preferred the Node 2i played by itself.  The DAC made things sound too thin.  I also notice better sound quality/sound stage when playing MQA.  Might be smoke and mirrors because no one in this group likes MQA.

Thanks again for your response.  Everyone in this group is so helpful and knowledgeable.  Just wish I had more money.

i am not a home theater guy, but if i were, i would agree that HT should be run with solid state gear to deliver the clarity oomph and reliability/low maintenance over long stretches - tube equipment makes a lot less sense here, as to me tubes mainly provide better tonal on acoustic instruments and voices, and also imaging - much more valued in 2 channel music reproduction...

In my experience, current-production tubes have been far, far more reliable than old-stock (new or not). This has primarily been with Russian Tung-sol and Gold Lion tubes, which are both the sort of mid-to-upper range of current production. I don't expect that the lower cost JJ, EH, or basic Shuguang would necessarily be as consistent. Having gone through hundreds of tubes in untested batches, it is exceedingly rare that these new tubes will exhibit electrical noise and even more rare for them to fail. 

Also having gone through hundreds of old-stock tubes in tested and untested lots, I can say that it is much more effort to find tubes that meet my standards for low noise and microphonics, especially if I'm looking for a pair. There is also a higher likelihood of a tube testing well and developing noise after it's been shipped. Having the tubes pre-tested by the vendor sometimes helps reduce the instances of noise, but sometimes it doesn't make a difference. My testing procedure is: external burn-in period > Maximatcher testing > in circuit listening test #1 > in circuit burn-in period > in circuit listening test #2.

While certain old-stock tubes can certainly sound great and often sound better than new-production, I find that Gold Lion and other brands sound excellent and allow much less worry about noise, so I'm on the same page as millercarbon . 

When you're buying a new amp, would you prefer the manufacturer use current production tubes as stock, significantly reducing the chance of tube noise in your new purchase, or would you prefer the manufacturer try to install old-stock tubes, though it's more likely that you'll have to deal with a noise issue?

I assume the tubes have not always had issues?  Did anything change in your environment lately?  Thuderstorm?  Electrical work?  High or low voltage?  AC socket grounding issues.
Many things can cause this.  Take your preamp to a different room, or better yet to your dealer, hook it up and see if it is a hardware problem or enivormental. Process of elimination will nail it down.

Tubes are funky devices and as soon as they are powered up they start wearing themselves out as mentioned by a well known audio company.
I don't use tubes right now because the new tube stuff sounds too much like good solid state and I sure wouldn't use tubes in a surround sound application.
If you do use tubes the most important thing is who you source them from but I still look forward to buying a tube preamp again for the use in my two channel stereo.

I have had tube phono preamps, main preamps and main amps for about 3 years totaling 9 models.  I progressively have had a quieter system with simply faint white noise audible from the speakers in the earlier models.  As I have reached my current higher end models, the noise is gone.  This was one of the benefits mentioned for my ARC gear both from individuals and official reviews.  

When I had some output tubes going out I also had a little of this similar noise increasing.  It was a bit inconsistent during this event where I would hear a faint whoosh sound.

It sounds like an odd run of bad luck you have had and makes me wonder if there is an issue with your gear.  Have you ever considered having the tubes tested?  I live in Memphis and The Tube Depot normally tests preamp tubes for $2 each.  I actually talked to them yesterday and their tester can even estimate remaining life.  They have stopped receiving tubes due to the damn virus, but hope to resume soon.  Whether them or any of the other companies out there...it would be good info to have.

Tube sound is glorious....don't give up!!

@dhite71

Does a faint white noise degrade the sound somehow particularly if its barely audible without putting your ear to the driver? 

+1 for Vintage Tube Services !!!

May not be just the tubes that are noisy.  I have had some noisy pre amps (Schiit, Decware) and changing tubes makes a difference but could never get a black background until I changed to Allnic.  Allnic doesn't have any sense of tube bloom, it is very detailed and quiet like solid state but has a sweet almost holographic presentation and a very strong accurate low end.  I can turn the volume almost all the way before I hear noise in my speakers.  I would never listen at that level.  I also found using single ended RCA IC's added to the noise.

Don't go solid state, the quicksilver preamps are great and amazing value. I have both versions (remote, non remote), super quiet with any tube (maybe I am lucky with the tubes). I now am using NOS RCA's. QS stock tubes are pretty decent. Mike is a great engineer, he knows what he does. 

I worked with tubes for 20 years in the late 60's and into the 80's. Granted, the applications were in communications, a field not ruled by feelings and subjective "I can hear a difference" consensus, but by how the equipment functioned, and, God forbid, measured. When SS came along, there was a collective sigh of relief.  No more lethal voltages (for the most part) inside (try working on a 5,000 watt linear power amplifier sometime. Getting close to the pws caps creates a real pucker factor). I have a tube preamp now, but the magic has limits. If I start to experience the scenarios the OP has posted, I'll go back to SS gladly. Besides, well designed and executed SS sounds as good as well designed hollow state. The differences are no more than personal preference, assuming you don't have noisy tubes, or 60 cycle hum to contend with.  

for a truly deep black silent background, tubes just cannot match top notch solid state

ayre gear is what i think of when i think of deep dark black background, from which the music emanates - it is magical, almost eery, hegel comes close to that too with their amps

but you get something from tubes that ss just doesn’t give you -- so like everything else, there is a tradeoff involved...

@tvad I’ve looked at the MZ2 but I need 2 sets of outputs. The MZ3 is about triple so it’s not in reach. Plus both have speaker jacks, headphone jacks and junk I dont need Inflating the price.
If I move on from the QS, $2k would be my budget. Which is a bummer. Overall I like the sound, wish I could crank down the gain. As a stop gap I resuscitated the Schiit SYS from my closet and looped it in between the QS and Odyssey. I gave the volume knob a light twist counter clockwise to bring the gain down. And now when we power down the QS we click off the subs and select unused inputs on the SYS, now no sound happens when powering up the QS.

What do you mean? It quit working, or the noise went away?

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


All these problems with valves... It almost sounds like your system is right in front of the house main. Some crazy field expanding and contracting, "like breathing".. You ever consider that? Am I crazy for thinking that? Does location change the problem with the unit?
Have you yo,yo ed the unit. Pick it up and set it down, while playing. I know you have to be very careful.

BUT at one point I’d just about try anything.. LOL I’ve found some weird stuff, BY doing weird stuff.. Get creative!!!!My good man...:-)

Regards

I would give andy at vintage tube service a call and see what he recommends. He has tubes rated for phono stages that might work better in a high gain setup.

@oldhvymec the Schiit silenced the BOOM when the preamp comes off mute on startup. Also reduced gain.

as for breathing fields, I live in the center of the 5th largest city in the country. So no...

Personally speaking, even after visiting a high end dealer listening to $50k  to $100k speakers (Wilson) run by ARC or Naim gear, I think my system sounds better than it has any right to considering it’s all mid-fi stuff.

@invalid I wish Mike from Quicksilver would have replied to me. I’d be really curious to know if I could swap in 12AU7 or AY7 to lower the gain. I’d have some in the mail already.

oh well.

You won’t hurt the preamp, by trying a 9 pin, 12 Volt, with lower gain.     ie:https://amptubes.com.au/my-amp-uses#:~:text=You%20can%20interchange%20a%2012AX7,gain%20and%20others%....         You're still going to want the lowest noise tubes possible, obviously.          The major misalignment, in my opinion, seems your power amp/speaker combo.

It’s a preamp. No power tubes. Just swap in the other 12A*7 tubes. Nothing’s going to blow up as they all have the same pin configuration and heater current.

Edit: @rodman -snap!

@rodman99999  you are correct. The speakers I ended up with were not what I was originally aiming for. So yes the high  gain amp and high sensitivity speakers are a mismatch. Add in high gain preamp and here we are. 
But that said I’m very happy with the sound. I’ve had people over who came to hear “a car wreck of a system” and were impressed by it. 
It shouldn’t sound as good as it does for what it is but yet it does. 
Originally, 4 years ago when I started I was looking at Odyssey Liquids, used Pulsars and Cantons. I heard Heresy IV’s on an all Pass slabs system and that was it. 

@noromance  I swear I read they may not be interchangeable due to plate voltages and heaters and what not.

I’ll definitely roll in some AU7’s and SY7’s then. See where I end up.

@yogiboy  I saw a post of you saying how good the WS phono is and I remember thinking “why 47db for mm?” I guess if I can drop down the gain via tubes I should reconsider it.

Yep; nice gear.     Just mismatched.    If I were trying to adjust the system, from the preamp end; I’d start with the 12AU7, which will reduce gain by around 60% (compared to 12AT7), in that stage.      No need to spend a lot, just to get an idea of how things are affected, at first.

@gochurchgo
" I think my system sounds better than it has any right to considering it’s all mid-fi stuff. "
 You should try the SYS in-between  the phono preamp and the preamp.
Why do you consider your gear Mid-Fi?

@rodman99999  I will try that after thanksgiving. We have many turkeys to buy this year.

@yogiboy  well it’s not anything to make people gasp. But it makes me happy when I actually get to spin a few sides. No piece over $1700 other than the speakers which I did get 1/3 off. So still a good deal. Looking forward to upgrading my phono stage (Lounge LCR MKIII) to takes things up a notch. 

If you have to stick with the 12at7 I would order the phono stage graded tubes from vintage tube service, Andy really does test them for microphonics.