Constant noisy tubes maybe go solid state?

  If you try 12AU7’s , cut to the chase and get a pair of NOS Telefunkens, the highest grade you can find . I have multiple pairs . The Tektronix and the black G73-R’s are outstanding . If you want a smidge brighter the Seimens Silver plates are the way to go . Either will out perform any RCA . 

If you want to be an audio equipment hobbyist and tinker with extra things to worry about, then tubes are for you if you think they sound better. I think they heat up a room and tend to not have enough power.

It all depends where you draw the line....some think vinyl is too much of a pain or too expensive or whatever...it's all I play, but I don't constantly experiment with different cartridges, phono stage settings (I set it up to what I liked and haven't touched it since) or VTA (I have a Rega table). I believe in KISS.

You can get as good or better sound from solid state amps - one technology is not better than the other, although solid state is more efficient.

I'd rather listen to different records and enjoy the music than have to worry about things to keep the status quo. The only thing I have to worry about is a cartridge rebuild or replacement every 4-8 years.

Never had a problem you got the wrong stuff.

@aj523.....the noise I was hearing was audible much farther than that.  My turntable is 3 feet to the right of the right speaker and I could hear when I was standing there.  

The whooshing sound during tube failure was a bit louder but nothing significant.

It was not noticeable during music, but if it was a soft jazz album then possibly audible at times.  

Much of this is how we obsess over details.  Even if I could not hear during music playback....the fact that I COULD hear while flipping a record was enough to frustrate me.  Having better components and hearing nothing now is quite satisfying.

Question.  Ear to speaker driver, or some distance away, at what volume level determines noisy problem? Half way ?  For example at 50 (halfway on my knob), barely audible with ear to drivers but at 60 start to hear hiss more prominently.  

I had similar problems with my Eastern Electric pre-amp that uses 12au7s.
I have discovered if I use only premium tubes from Mullard, Cifte, and Telefunken I have had no issues.
My favorite between the three? It's a toss up between the Ciftes and the Telefunkens.
Give them a try, you won't be disappointed. 

@aj523 the newest pair I got the noise was so bad the neighbors can hear it. Its not subtle. I thought speakers were going to blow. Volume position makes no difference.
I sent the bad tube to Brent Jessee, along with a return paid label to ship back on my dime. In the meantime I swallowed it and ordered a set of "Kevin’s stash" Mullard 6201. More than I wanted to spen but f*ck it. We will see what we will see (or hear) I guess.

@gochurchgo
 Why did you get a 6201 tube if you need less gain than a 12at7? Just curious!

Jump on SS ASAP!!

Sure seems like there is something else going on here.  

Several colleagues with your same preamp with few issues like this. 

Sourced several tested and matched pairs 12AU7 and 12AT7 tubes from many of the same providers you have with minimal issues. 

A good tech?
Might be worth taking the amplifier and preamp to a good tech, checking with clean power and to confirm if any damaged occurred to the amp or preamp during all of these tests. Or, to at least find the real root cause.  Could save you a lot of time and $ too. Best of Luck. 

@yogiboy  Upscale suggested it. It’ll be high gain obviously but I’ll give it a shot. I’ll also look into AY and AU as well. Spent more than I planned but it’ll be a test to see how good the betting is I suppose.

@decooney  with my mostly quiet but slightly microphonic Phillips tubes in its mostly back to business. 

waste of time....KISS

@ gochurchgo
I hate to burst your bubble but I think your spinnin’ your wheels. You said the problem was too much gain with the QS preamp. You are replacing the At7 with a 6201. Both of those tubes have the same gain. Good luck and all the best!

You should clean out your tube sockets, it may have some residue in there.

@yogiboy the purpose of the thread was bad tubes. Gain is a design issue. For now good tubes are the answer until I can search more into other varieties.

@gochurchgo

an obvious point perhaps

but if your tube preamp has too much gain for your power amp then slightly noisy tubes in the pre get highlighted moreso than if the gain match were more appropriate, right?

so the issues are inter related which is why we have been talking about both - ’’component synergy is the lifeblood of a truly well performing system’’

06-06-2018 5:23pm by Jackd
...As the Odyssey amps have low input sensitivities in the 1 volt range you need to be careful of tube preamps with high gain especially if your speakers have sensitivity ratings much over the mid-80's range.

Was member jackd on to something a few years ago, about pairing higher gain preamps with the Odyssey Khartago amp, 9th post down?

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/preamp-suggestions-for-hot-rodded-odyssey-khartago

@decooney 

And it's still true over two years later.

@gochurchgo 

Until you can resolve in your mind what to do going forward about your gain mismatch once you get a pair of clean tubes then there are two relatively inexpensive things you can try between the Quicksilver and the Khartago that will help resolve your problem.  Number one is an inexpensive passive like the Schitt Sys and the other a set of passive attenuators.  Neither one will "greatly effect" the sound you are getting and both will buy you some time while letting you enjoy what you have now.  I have used the Rothwell attenuators from the UK with many different gear combo's and never found any "dramatic" effect on the sound but there are also less expensive versions from the Pro Audio world available at places like Guitar Center and Sweetwater. I have used Odyssey amps since 1999 with a number of tube preamps based on 12AU7, 6DJ8 and 6SN7 tubes and the issue was always the same if there was a gain mismatch between the preamp and the particular Odyssey amp and the speaker sensitivity got close to or over 90 db.  Just  how it is.

@jackd  agreed. I have a Schiit SYS now in the chain between the QS and the Odyssey. A slight drop on the SYS’ volume knob helps as well as switching the input at startup. Not sexy but it works.

As for attenuators, I have a pair of 12db one (I forget the brand but not Rothwell) and I’ll dig those out and try them again. I did use them briefly after getting these speakers and felt they degraded the sound but I’ll try them again. 
Thanks

Worth a try if you already have a set and you may or may not hear a difference with one of the Pro Audio versions. I only had one combo where I thought there was a slight dulling of the top end but that was a different brand of amp than Odyssey.

As to the SYS, who cares about sexy if it works and fits in your current budget.

If down the road you decide to swap preamps and don’t want to deal with a tube one a great option with your speakers is to find a used Wyred4Sound STP-SE which is a really good combo with the Odyssey amps. The first two thirds of it’s volume control is passive and then the active buffer kicks in. I never had it kick in with the Odyssey amps or even get anywhere close even with 83db Vandersteen Treo CT’s.

Also if you haven't heard back from Mike about using 12AU7's in place of the 12AT7's via e-mail pick up the phone and call him as that's the preferred method of communication for a lot of the "old timers" in the industry. 

@jackd  I will definitely look to the W4S preamp. Semi OT, but have you any experience with their phono stage?

You can't assume one tube brand will have less noise than another, each tube must be individually tested.

Gochurchgo: noise testing is a must on any tube you order, especially since it's been established that your system gain is high.

I believe tubes from Upscale include testing for noise and microphonics. As far as "Kevin's Stash," I'd like to hear your impression of these tubes. His Platinum rated tubes have a triode balance of
10% or tighter, I wonder if the "Stash" will make an audible difference.

@gochurchgo 

No experience with EJ's phono stage just the preamp which I still have around and a pair of amps from about five years ago.

I had used and loved NOS tubes. After a couple costly quick failures, I've never purchased NOS again. These day I only use Upscale and for the most part Gold Lion reissues and from time to time Mullard reissues. I have a gallon zip lock baggie full of NOS and reissues tubes just to keep me on path.

nos small signal tubes are fine - they can sound excellent and are still worth it even at current prices, if your gear doesn't run them too close to the edge

playing with nos power tubes at current prices is not smart unless you truly have money to burn

otoh, i have gaggles of true uk gec kt77’s mullard el34’s hoarded from the 1980’s... they are fun to listen to and sound wonderful!

Called quicksilver and no one answered. Left message again. The replacement tube from Brent Jessee showed up though so we are back in business. Interestingly enough, the slight gain reduction from the Sys is as good on the RCA’s as it was in the Philips. So it’s a momentary fix. The Millard will be here Friday so that will be fun. I have a few preorders that finally showed up after months of delay. 

So are you saying the QS tube preamplifier is working reasonably for yournow paired with your Odyssey solid state amplifier?

Doing some research on this the past weekend having gotten lucky with prior tube pre and SS amp combos along with tube amp combos, wondering what you might be experiencing. And, back to what jackd said, as you already know.  

The QS preamp is a "low noise" line stage preamp with only 100 ohm output impedance, 18db gain.  Your Odyssey amp apparently is more favorable when matched with preamps with no more than 14db gain. A notable output/impedance mismatch more than voltage.  So, I guess I sorta see why you would be fishing for low gain tubes on the preamp side. Your preamp is more ideal for good low noise tube amps, single-ended or ultra linear. When ready, down the road, and pending on your speaker types and efficiency, maybe try a good pair of mono tube amps with your preamp. Its a lot of fun. Good luck.  Look up impedance, matching too, not just voltage, gain.  

https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/lowering-impedance/

I was just asking a general question about hiss/hum from speaker drivers either ear up to driver or 3 feet away. As one turns the volume up when should it be noticeable and then turning it down when should it not?  Thx !

It should not be noticeable AJ. I had a problem with minor buzz/hiss with the volume on at normal volume without music from a few feet away and it went away completely when I got a power conditioner.

Of course I use SS - not sure about tubes, but I know they can be noisy.

One example, having a humming (unclean) coax cable from a cable TV company plugged into nearby boxes sharing similar or conjoined AC outlets on the same circuit back to the junction box can do this too.  Amps with big transformers can simply amplify this too, right to your speakers. Bzzzzzzzzzz. Many years ago finally caved and went to a dedicated AC circuit and power-conditioning station. Much better.  

@sokogear
Thx dude! My entire system - phonostage, preamp, amp, are tubes and I have an Audioquest Niagara 5000. I think you’re right though, my home theater is solid state and dead quiet. Idk worth the compromise for me and it’s not audible until the volume is at least half way turned up with my ear pressed against the speaker. At a couple of feet away no level is audible but of course I’m 53. Lol.  

I sent back my crazy noisy RCA blackplates to Brent Jesse and spent 4x the money for Mazda 12AU7s pre-tested for noise and microphonics. These are better - actually listenable - but there’s a weird high pitched whine every so often and I can still clearly hear hiss from the listening position in quiet passages of music. I like the 3D effect but find myself straining to hear the music at my normal listening volumes (~60dB). This is after 72hrs of burn-in. 
Amp is Rogue Sphinx v2. Speakers are Wharfedale diamond 10.7. 
Am I missing something? Is this as quiet as it gets?

Thanks!

@leemaze I had that issue too when the RCA's were on their last legs. Intermittent super high pitch whine. Seems to come on more often the longer they were burning in a single session. Might be tubes going bad.

Why not talk to Mike Sanders?

@slaw  mentioned up thread. Emails and voicemails unreturned. Sh*t service.

@slaw
"Why not talk to Mike Sanders?"

@gochurchgo
... "Emails and voicemails unreturned. Sh*t service".

Really, no response ???

Mike at Quicksilver just emailed me back in 10hrs, on a Saturday weekend day mind you. Fast response. Use email.  

He’s fine, open for business and customer service. I shared some of you could not reach him. He wanted to know what the issue is and what its about. He said to call or email him. Try again. FYI: his contact page is UPDATED with the direct (gmail) email address listed, go to: http://quicksilveraudio.com/contact/

decooney raises an important point

with covid, many manufacturers are not manning the land lines into their offices as most if not all staff work remotely

for example, one person in another thread complains that audio research doesn't answer the phone - but i email greg c (arc service manager) and he answers me in 2 hours

@decooney  2 emails and 2 voicemail. 
It’s fine. Things are running and I’ll be moving on the QS next year anyway. 

Not to hi-jack the thread but it seems on topic - anyone have clues about the hiss on my Rogue Sphinx?

@gochurchgo the whine is less and less frequent so I want to believe it’s part of Brent Jessee’s burn-in theory. 

The hiss is a different story, steady and present all the time. I can’t listen to quiet, ambient music because it’s covered in white noise. If I turn up the amp the music covers it, but it’s very noticeable at low volumes. It’s not affected by the volume level - the hiss doesn’t increase if I turn up the volume with nothing playing. Is this the tubes or something else you think?

The problem with your Rogue is most likely not the tubes but just a higher noise floor with the component. Could be an issue with gain and also probably just the price you pay for a less expensive component. You can only do so much for a given retail price and certain short cuts are often taken by manufacturers in order to reach a target price. 

@gochurchgo

decooney 2 emails and 2 voicemail.
It’s fine. Things are running and I’ll be moving on the QS next year anyway.

Hmm. I did notice QS changed their contact page some. No more fill-in page. Shows email address only. He did respond back quickly though.

----------
re: old tubes - I do know people try different quality grade tubes in his preamps and the stock JJs he provides work well 99% of the time, functionally. Sure, others sound better and yet some old tubes from eBay and others with no reputable curve tracer or proven reputation and good results are a crapshoot. Can’t fake it on old tubes, as we all know too well. Best to buy from reputable tube resellers with real guarantees.

A friend had issues with his QS preamp as soon as he started "saving money", "getting a better deal" buying sh*t tubes off eBay. He's got good tubes now, all quiet again on the western front with his QS preamplifier. 

Selling it? If you decide to put that QS preamp up for sale, be sure to post it on Agon, someone here will grab it and make good use of it! Best of luck.

CONTACT Quicksilver,  go to: http://quicksilveraudio.com/contact/

Just chatted with Mike Sanders at QS again over email a few times.  He wanted to re-share he "responds to all emails" and suggested people may not be using the correct email address if they are not seeing a response.  

Note:  I checked and see his current gmail address via the "contact" page on his website is NOT the same as the old one some of us may have had last yer.   See contact on his site for the correct one to use.  

I have used 12AU7 tubes in that Quicksilver to lower the gain! You should do a little research on your gear before making a purchase. There is nothing wrong with that QS preamp. You mismatched the amp and preamp!

@donvito I researched the hell out of it. You should read a thread before commenting in it. Go ahead and search. Let me know what you come up with: TLDR zero.

never said anything was wrong with it and in the original post I noted that I realized about the gain. 

Threads would be much shorter, were more contributors disposed to actually read what’s been previously discussed.      Seems ubiquitous, on most social media platforms.

Hard to get through 145 responses....

hey @aj523 - I thought you had fairly recently gotten a Sutherland 20/20 - did you already get rid of it? You said you have all tubes.

@sokogear
The 20/20 LPS is so summer 2020 lol. I had since moved on to the new Sutherland Duo LPS ver.
But recently I was given the opportunity to demo from the same retailer a brand new Zesto Andros Deluxe2 and go head to head with the DUI for up to 30 days. That’s what I’m doing now and both have their strengths and weaknesses but quite frankly the Zesto piece is quite a bit more dynamic (and quite a bit more money) with amazing separation of instruments, so the sonics are stunning but at the expense of it being a little noisier. The Duo is dead dead quiet.

"Hard to get through 145 responses....".        Yep!        Actually reading prior posts is something that should be done at the outset, of a thread’s inception.    It’s somewhat late, at this point/for this thread.       Happy holidays!

Short story, using quality well tested tubes matters. Good matching of voltage/impedance between the preamp and amp(s) matters.