I own a Bluesound Node 2i which greatly improved sound after I added the Cat 6 cable. I do not own a separate DAC but am told it would be the next step improvement. I have done enough reading that it appears the two latest chips are the Sabre or ESS
ES9038PRO
and the AK4499. The brands I have looked at are Sabaj d5($469) and a Topping D90($699). I saw a great review on Audiocircle of the Sabaj D5 which is now a year old. The Topping D90 is newer and I hear the build quality of the Topping as well as customer service are both better. Other brands cost more and most don't use these new chips.
Is there a difference in how these chips sound? I would appreciate any comments.
The Lumin X1 interests me because of that fibre optical network connection. I believe it is the only DAC that has it. Another external DAC I am interested in is the Denafrips Terminator. I am looking forward to someone doing a comparison with the Lumin X1.
With regards to ESS chips, I have not heard the Lumin.X1, but have a lot of listens to the older Mirrus DAC from these guys.
The Mirrus was an incredible sounding DAC. They currently do not have the latest ESS chip (not sure why) and they are dragging their feet getting ROON READY support. However, they may feel the ESS9028PRO chips is more than adequate compared to the latest ESS9038PRO chip. Benchmark Media told me that the difference between their DAC2 (ESS9028PRO) and DAC3 (ESS9038PRO) was negligible. I ended up upgrading from the DAC2 to the DAC3 but I could not tell a difference.
The key point for me with regards to resonessencelabs is that they know the ESS DAC architecture better than anyone in the world. The engineers at resonessencelabs were formerly with ESS and designed the ESS DACs. Darko.com mentions this in one of their reviews.
I met the resonessencelabs guys at an audio show and they played the Mirrus DAC with a 20 year old $500 eBay speaker. Just to prove how amazing their DAC implementation was. A highlight for me at that audio show.
I would be surprised if the Lumin X1 was better than the latest top end resonessencelabs DAC just because of the ESS engineering background of the DAC designers.
Saying all of this the DAC I am currently thinking of getting is the Mola Mola Makua with internal DAC option. It is supposed to be even better than the external Mola Mola Tambaqui mentioned a few posts above. It also has RJ45 streaming and ROON READY support.
As for the Deafrips, when I mentioned the "better hi-end R2R dacs" as the ones that will convert PCM better than DS based chips, it was the the Denafrips Terminator I was referring to. And also from Asia the Holo Spring level 2 or level 3 are also very good, especially in NOS (none over-sampling) mode
I looked back at Denafrips and the Ares is 768 USD. I forgot to convert to USD previously. If the Topping doesn't work out, I can try the Denafrips. Backordered 8-10 weeks.
I have the Fiio M15 with two AK4499 chips. It is better than my Fiio M11 pro was. I don't think either are better than My Chord Qutest. The M15 is less bright.
This can also be added to that list of R2R Mutibit dacs the Audio Mirror Tubadour III It's getting raved about and uses the Analog Devices R2R Multibit AD1865N-K flagship DAC chip And is can do DSD if you feel the need to.
It's said to be "the best and most analog and musical sounding DAC "chips" ever made."I have heard this chip in other units it's very good like the PCM1704 in a Linn CD12 I have, but the new breed of discrete R2R sound even better, from makers like MSB I have, TotalDac ect ect ect. They bring life back to music, instead of being a bit of a yawn like the DS chips do.
With the X1, where do you 'fall' with regards: what is (may be)
responsible for your preference of it, since it is more than just a DAC?
I dont think any one element can be identified as the reason for my preference for the X1. It is just a very well designed and implemented unit. I know that the Lumin streamers are very good (I also have a U1 mini), the ESS 9038 dac chip is capable of sounding great (I was less impressed with the previous generation of ESS dacs), the X1 has a very high quality linear power supply, and the output stage uses the excellent Lundahl transformers. It is finished to a very high standard. All of these factors combine to produce great sound.
The sound the X1 produces is dense and colourful, perhaps slightly warm, as well as being fast and dynamic. This contrasts with the slightly thin and cool sound of the Chord DAVE/Blu 2 which I owned for a while, and which is not a sound I typically enjoy. The DAVE did have more apparent detail, but it was an illusion caused by the leanness of the sound and overemphasis of fine detail. The X1 has all the detail, but it has a fuller, more natural sound so that detail is not artificially emphasised. The Metrum Pavane I owned at one point, which is an R2R dac, was also very good, and had a similar sense of tonal density and richness. But it sounded a little slow compared to the ESS based dacs (and the DAVE) and was, to my ears, lacking slightly in dynamics. The X1 seems to combine tonal richness and dynamics in a way that is close to ideal. I'm sure that there are better sounding dacs out there, but you would probably need to spend crazy money to improve on it and achieve that last 1% - maybe.
suggesting that the chip is the only thing which defines the sound of the dac, [*when many other elements of the design also come into play*] Emphasis added.
I have had a good R2R dac and prefer my Lumin X1 with its ESS chip
@rossb Thanks for your helpful posts. With the X1, where do you 'fall' with regards: what is (may be) responsible for your preference of it, since it is more than just a DAC?
I also fall into the "implementation" camp...very impressed (an understatement) with a Delta-Sigma DAC...this coming from a R2R fan. The unit is also an 'all-in-one" which is why I'm interested in your feedback on this. Thanks.
I am curious about the OP statement that he thought the Node2 sounded better with Cat 6 ethernet cable. Can he elaborate? Regarding chip quality, it really does matter about the total environment that are placed in. For a while I used the Oppo 105 as my DAC, then upgraded to a Mytek Manhatten. Same ESS Sabre chip, vastly different results.
Can’t comprehend the Queens English either sunshine, there’s no hope for you!. Then maybe there is, after you answered this. Now you just need an R2R dac to get the best from PCM that you prefer so much.
n_brio OP12 posts08-14-2019 7:19pmrossb -> do you use upsampling to dsd?
Don’t know abraxalito, got that list from someone else they sent me, didn’t bother to check all of them.
Also can say all the MSB’s are R2R Multibit save for the very first 1999-2000 LinkDac models that used bit stream Delta Sigma PCM1738-32’s then went discrete R2R in 2003 with the Platinum LinkPlus and never looked back at Delta Sigma again.
Just rejecting your preposterous statement that all R2R dacs are inherently better
Didn’t say "all" sunshine, I said the better hi-end ones, now your generalizing, with that "preposterous statement".
For those interested in what the better hi-end ones are that are R2R Multibit here is a list, it’s about a year old now, there are even more now and even better ones to add to it. Trinity Dac Ypsilon Cdt-100 Phasure MSB Platinum Total Dac Audial (Peja Rodgic) AMR top dac and cdp (Thorsten Loschec) Exasound Reimyo CH precision Holo Denafrips
This is the reason why R2R is better, Delta Sigma can only give you a facsimile of PCM, where R2R Multibit is bit perfect.
MoJo Music quote:
" When a PCM (redbook) file is played on a dsd, sacd or Bit Stream converter, the DAC chip has to convert the PCM to DSD in real time. This is one of the major reasons people claim DSD sounds better than PCM, when in fact, it is just that the chip in most modern single-bit delta sigma DACs do a poor job of decoding PCM.
That is completely incorrect. As I said, I have owned a very good R2R dac and a number of ESS dacs and compared them. I only listen to PCM. The R2R dac was okay on its own terms but I much preferred dacs using the current generation of ESS chips.
+1
You are also making ridiculous generalisations about "R2R detractors". How can you possibly know whether "R2R detractors" have compared R2R and ESS dacs. As, I said, I have done such a comparison and I am sure that many others have as well.
+1
And no one is suggesting that there are no good R2R dacs. Just rejecting your preposterous statement that all R2R dacs are inherently better than all ESS dacs merely because of the dac chip architecture, which is patently absurd.
The above R2R detractors, obviously have never A/B'ed their ESS delta
sigma dacs (listening to PCM) compared to a good discrete R2R dac
That is completely incorrect. As I said, I have owned a very good R2R dac and a number of ESS dacs and compared them. I only listen to PCM. The R2R dac was okay on its own terms but I much preferred dacs using the current generation of ESS chips.
You are over generalising about dac chips - suggesting that the chip is the only thing which defines the sound of the dac, when many other elements of the design also come into play - the filtering, power supply and analog output stage for a start. There are good R2R dacs and good ESS dacs. The chip is only one factor of many in the final sound of the dac. You are also making ridiculous generalisations about "R2R detractors". How can you possibly know whether "R2R detractors" have compared R2R and ESS dacs. As, I said, I have done such a comparison and I am sure that many others have as well.
And no one is suggesting that there are no good R2R dacs. Just rejecting your preposterous statement that all R2R dacs are inherently better than all ESS dacs merely because of the dac chip architecture, which is patently absurd.
The above R2R detractors, obviously have never A/B'ed their ESS delta sigma dacs (listening to PCM) compared to a good discrete R2R dac, they have no idea what they're missing. Yes their ESS dacs will "maybe" do DSD better, but that's a maybe, But not PCM 16/44, 24/96 or DXD.
The audiophile community(I know it is just my opinion) have not come to grips with the fact that the ESS9038 PRO and AK4499 have showed up in DAC that cost less than $1000 and have outstanding performance. The intent of the new AK4499 was to be used in DAC costing over $3K. We shall see. I have a Topping D90 coming. I am NOT going to spend thousands for a component. I have kept my system under control cost wise. I went to Chicago and listened to several +100K systems and came back saying my system is "close enough". It has better bass, great sound staging, is dynamic and not fatiguing to listen to. I could spend lots of money for just a little more.
No way do R2R DACs have more detail, analytical, measure better than Delta Sigma DACs. Some might prefer the sound of a R2R DAC for the very reason they don't have the analytical detail of Delta Sigma DACs.
Not even analytical, a good "discrete" R2R dac is even more detailed,
yet it’s airier with much more musical sense and far more body to the
mids, and then there’s the unmatched bounce and slam to the music they
have as well.
Sorry, but this is complete rubbish.
Some of the best dacs out there use ESS chips - Ayre, Brinkmann, Lumin, Mytek.
I've owned a "good" R2R dac - a Metrum Pavane - and the Ayre QX5, Mytek Manhattan II and Lumin X1 with their ESS chips walk all over it. And, yes, I've owned all of them.
The idea that R2R dacs have "unmatched bounce" or are more detailed is just ridiculous. The current generation of ESS chips are outstanding which is why they are used in many very high end dacs.
I think the AKM is better for my setup. I bought it from Apos with a nice return policy and guarantee. I think it will probably be an improvement over the Bluesound included DAC. "not highend". My whole system is probably not considered high end. This is all new territory to me. Five months ago, I didn't even know what to type to search for something that will play new technology through an old hobby. Just last week I had a dealer tell me don't bother with a DAC you can unplug them and not know the difference. LOL Part of me wants to prove him wrong. Thanks for following this George and others.
It’s got a AKM (Delta Sigma) dac in it, said to be better than ESS, they did use to use ESS and then went to AKM. Good for the money, but they are not hiend sound, I found them sweet polite not much "jump factor" didn’t keep me interested in what I was playing, chopping and changing albums looking for something to keep my attention
Sabre ES9038, a chip brand that has a reputation of being analytical at the expense of musicality.
Not even analytical, a good "discrete" R2R dac is even more detailed, yet it’s airier with much more musical sense and far more body to the mids, and then there’s the unmatched bounce and slam to the music they have as well.
As the US Distributor of Italy's Audio Analogue, we received their new AAdac that uses the Sabre ES9038, a chip brand that has a reputation of being analytical at the expense of musicality.
I agree 100% with the above poster who stated the whole package including power supply, analog output circuit, component quality, etc can easily change the sound of any DAC chip.
The Sabaj is now out of stock at Amazon so I am wondering what is going on there. Topping seems to be more of an established brand. The D90 looks very nice after watching youtube and reading threads. I read the article George sent me and it is easier to understand the terms. Thanks again to all..
I am using an Ayre Codex and both inputs, usb and optical. It sounds quite good to me. Aside from the connectivity limitations, is the Codex still competitive?
ASR has some good discussions and links that explain the differences in DAC architecture. First the analog has to be converted to digital nowadays this is done almost exclusively with Delta Sigma ADCs. The goal is get the signal as true as possible this is where your numbers and measurements come in. Next comes the DAC to reverse the process. All of the differing architecture’s will accomplish this which does it with the least distortion and noise is the point of the DAC. It doesn’t matter which architecture of DAC you use as long as it can do the job accurately. Delta Sigma DAC’s are easier to implement so they are usually cheaper though not always but since you aren’t looking to buy a 5 figure DAC we’ll stick with that premise. R2R DAC’s can measure very well but they usually cost more see the above link to the Mojo DAC that runs about $5500. You can get a DS DAC that will measure just as well for about $250-$1000. The Topping D90 is a good example as well as the Sabaj. Don’t worry to much about how the DAC works just know they take a digital signal and turn into analog. The differences in the sound as was pointed out by the comparison of the Wolfson and AKM DAC’s has more to do with the type of filtering they employ. My guess is the Wolfson is using a Slow roll off hi pass filter or bypassing the internal and Cambridge used an outboard filter, AKM might have used the Sharp roll off giving different sound characteristics, the Wolfson emulating a LP sound that a lot of people find more pleasing to listen too. The best thing is listen for yourself and find what you like whether it measures good doesn’t matter if you like it.
I've been reading a lot about this subject online in forums such as this one and I've come to the conclusion that should have been obvious to me from the start. There are some great DAC chip manufacturers out there and there are a lot of great equipment manufacturers that use them. It always comes down to this...you have to listen to the different combinations of chips and equipment before you can make a decision. I've read a lot of reviews about the Hegel H390 and the fact that it has a great DAC. They use the AK4490 and many reviews also stated, as many of you have in this thread, that it's the electronics after the chip that makes this one shine. I now own a H390 and I've listened to the DAC. I have a Cambridge Audio Azur 650C and I hooked it up to the H390 with a coax cable. I found myself becoming restless while listening to music. On edge. I didn't think it sounded bad, but something wasn't right. I removed the coax and replaced it with the analog outputs of the 650C. The dual Wolfson WM8740 in the 650C made the music sound fuller and silkier. There was a quality to the music that is hard to explain, but I could listen to it and relax. I went back to the AK4490 setup after a few weeks to see if I would change my mind and I went right back to the analog output using the 8740's. By the way....the Hegel H390 is by far the best integrated amp, or any preamp-amp combo, I've ever owned. I highly recommend it!
Thanks very much for the suggestions. Since I never owned a DAC can anyone explain R2R, multibit, or anything else that applies. So far the D90, Denafrips(backordered at least 8 wks) and Sabaj D5 all look good at a reasonable price. I have a Schiit amp but don't know if a DAC from them would match the three above(at comparable price)
Also, I started out at ASR but found some threads that talked about numbers but don't even mention sound characteristics.
The Hans Beekhuyzen Channel "Quite often I see people seeking for the cheapest digital to analog converter using a given DAC chip. For they think that the DAC chip is the only factor influencing the sound quality. Well, they couldn’t be further from the truth…" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MonWnHnWHTc
Give me one of the now many discrete R2R Mulibit conversions circuits in dacs that a lot of hiend manufactures are now using, over any DSD chip equipped dacs.
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