Comparison of latest DAC chips

I  have many single end device and class A amp. So I would just recommend Topping D50s. It uses  2 x ES9038Q2M DAC chips. I use solar panel changed Li-Battery pack to power D50s for lower noise. It is is a $200 DAC and basically can toss it after years when better DAC come out. I use Tidal , Qobuz and Foobar2000. D50s supports highest DSD512 and PCM 32bit/768kHz.COAX and OPT of D50s supports hightest PCM 24bit/192kHz and DOP DSD64.

Since my thread got kick started, I will comment on my thread and D90. I have had it nearly a year and have listened to it about 300 hours. I upgraded my amp to a Pass XA25. I still use the D90 connected directly to my amp. I have horn speakers.

I agree with the premise of implementation vs chip brand.

The sound from my system is very detailed, clear, great soundstaging, dynamics. I could say it it analytical and clinical but not sure. Since my purchase, I have found some other DAC that would probably be worth a try. Audio Mirror, MHDT and Schiit. These have tubes and would be interesting to try with my setup. For now though, I find the music from my system quite satisfying. I am not disappointed and don’t regret the purchase at all. I don’t see very many D90 come up on the used market so maybe that is a good sign.

#1 There is nothing simple about a turntable receiver and speakers. The OP must have no experience with cartridges, tonearms, turntables and phono preamps, the best of which will have an overall cost of at least 2x the best DAC. 

#2 Whoever mentioned that it's not really about the DAC chip, but about implementation, is absolutely correct. The best wolfsons and burr browns can still compete given the proper circuitry engineering. Manufacturers have put in a lot of time money and effort to develop and utilize them over time. The newer dac chips may just me more adaptable to changing times and easier/cheaper to utilize properly. Needless to say that newer chips are more future proof, hence, more practical to buy.
 
#3 My CA Azur 851N uses dual AD1955 and I'm completely happy with it as a streamer (preamp mode sucks for some reason connected straight to a power amp) but I'm researching the topping D90 vs the Node 2i for a friend so here I am. The comments about the AK4499 chip in the Topping DAC reminds me a lot about the consumer feedback on the CA Azur 851N. Lots of air, wall to wall sound, incredible staging,  punchy, not slouchy, etc. It makes me want to believe that chips with this AK4499 is superior but I'm sure its success is based much more in its implementation. I am just wondering if the bluetooth function of the topping d90 dac will work as well as vs connected to a streamer like the node 21 or azur 581n....

There are R2R DACs that beat Delta Sigma DACs, and some Delta Sigma DACs that beat R2R DACs.  So it’s not so much as the technology type used but the “execution” that is different.  

However, it does seem that as you move up the food chain $, R2R DACs appears to be more prevalent as the preferred choice.

Also, as with most things tech, I’d expect better and better DAC chips will be introduced/upgraded over time.

Thanks Daledeee1! Thats very helpful! Especially happy to hear that the DAC does a good job with vocals👍 They are always difficult to get right. 

Hi charan11. 

I have listened to the D90 about 4 hours so far. This is the first stand alone DAC I have ever owned. 

I don't want to down play the Node 2I.  I think it is a pretty good item considering it cost me $420, 

I bought a $30 coax and plugged in the Topping into the Schiit Aegir power amp. Right out of the box it sounded better. There is a way to bypass the preamp but for now I am running it at full volume. I haven't spent much time evaluating the 6 filter settings. It has a better, wider, taller sound stage with accuracy and clarity.  Differences in placement of percussion is easily recognized.  Good tight bass, wonderful piano and vocals which I think are difficult to get right.  Bass guitar string vibrations I have never heard before.

I am kind of rusty on all this audio stuff since I just replaced my whole system in the last few months.  Oh how times have changed.  I have a kind of old school speaker set up.  Big Bob Crites boxes with horn mid and tweeter with a couple powered sub woofers There is no evidence of speaker anywhere in the listening experience.

There are several other brands to look at, most cost more.  From what I have been reading and am experiencing, value and performance is pretty high with the D90. 

Apos Audio is excellent to deal with.  I got my piece from Hong Kong is 7 calendar days.  They price matched, kept me updated, helped me with operator error, added a year warranty and have 30 day return.  They don't sell a wide variety of stuff but are good to deal with.

Hey daledeee1,

am in similar shoes as you. Have the Bluesound node 2i and am considering adding a topping d90 to the chain. Would you let me know if there was a noticeable difference in the sound when listening to Bluesound node 2i direct as against when listening through topping d90, and was that difference for the better in terms of over all sound quality? Any negatives of adding the d90?

thanks!

@daledeee1 It does not need a manual.. Any audiophile worth his/her salt will figure out its menus, the menu is very simple .....
It will turn on without interconnects, you need to to turn the AUTO setting OFF from the MENU option....

I suggest give it at least 250 hours of break in with music (not just keeping it plugged in) for "serious" evaluation.... But even right out of the box that thing is something extraordinary one can tell !!! AND FUN!!!! Enjoy !

I got the D90 hooked up.  I already had good sound stage.  This thing just adds more.  No drifting of image, more air with wall to wall sound. and at times(depending on recording) I felt like I was in a holographic sphere of sound.  I opened my eyes to make sure where the speaker sits.  Everything just sounds rich and beautiful. 

When I got it I could not get it to turn on.  The manual is a rough translation and could use some work.  It will not power up unless there are interconnects with signal going through them.  Also, the instructions are backwards for the voltage setting. 

So far, everything I have done to my system has been a step up.  The next step would be very expensive and I will sit right here for awhile.  Famous last words. 

@daledeee1   as far as filters I ve been using whatever  default values there are ...Have not played with them extensively

Congrats Dale.  Let us know how it goes.  With a 30 day trial period from Apos, you can't lose.

Thank you kot.  My D90 is arriving today.  Have you tried the different filters? 

The Topping D90 is a phenomenal dac! One of the best dac’s at any price IMHO.... Have had it for 3 weeks now, and its imaging, transparency to the source, detail, dynamic snap, tonal accuracy, and impact are jaw dropping .... at $699 its shockingly good...It is still has somewhat caramel like coloring like most AKM chips do, but to a much less extent.. Also, somewhat has very grayish background, as opposed to the complete black. Its very system and cable dependent I ’d say.... My Cardas Golden Crosses are somewhat laid back already, and I ve used a custom "high" resolution interconnect in place of the Cardas Golden Cross IC, and the D90 readily revealed a new sonic signature of the new item in the system... Also I ve been using it as a preamp as well via its balanced outs, into the Classe Dr-3 Class A amplifier (which itself is also somewhat on the darkish side in some set ups) and I hear D90 is even more transparent as a stand alone dac if used with high quality preamp, but which option is more transparent is highly system dependent as usual... Also been burning in the Gustard A22, uses 2 AKM 4499 ,with much beeifier power supplies, different parts, and uses different layout (by the way, a HUGE shout out to CJ at the Apos shop for getting me this unit in 3 days during a lock down in China!!!! Exemplary service and attitude of guys at Apos)... Too early to comment definitively on the Gustard dac, but I d say we have hit the golden age of performance where dacs at relatively small sums (compared to 10 of thousands $ in the past) provide awesomely musical and enjoyable sound to music lovers at any budget!!!

Hey Abraxilito nice find, it is for audio too and the pro side.
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/dac11001a.pdf

www.ti.com/product/DAC11001A

They are also voltage output, as you know I prefer current output dacs that I can do my own current to voltage (I/V) conversion stage on.

Cheers George

Since this thread's about the latest chips, is anyone else keeping an eye open for implementations of the DAC11001a? Its a new R2R chip from TI- I never imagined there'd be a market for such as they no so long ago discontinued the PCM1704 with no direct replacement. Its not designed for audio applications but some of the guys at TI are interested in hearing how it sounds and are planning an audio evaluation board. At present there's only an industrial one extant.

If I hadn't just bought a new streamer/ dac I would buy one for comparison to the ESS it looks like a great deal.

A lot depends on how the chip is implemented there are 6 filters on the 4499. I have read the Topping D90 is very transparent. 

From what I read, the new AK chip addresses the laid back, dark, murky(whatever people call it)  It is more dynamic and open. 

The dCS Bartok is a great DAC. It measures well , has digital filters,   up samples is not NOS and costs $13,500. 

I've  seen the same type of discussions over cartridges and tone arms etc.. in analog. I think the Topping with the AK4499 chip will work well for you. I liked their older chip the 4490  I had in an integrated amp  and I like the ESS 9028 Pro I had in a Benchmark DAC3B. If anything the AK chip has a more laid back presentation but to me it's  really hard to tell good measuring dacs apart. 

Sorry, but this is complete rubbish.

Some of the best dacs out there use ESS chips - Ayre, Brinkmann, Lumin, Mytek.

I've owned a "good" R2R dac - a Metrum Pavane - and the Ayre QX5, Mytek Manhattan II and Lumin X1 with their ESS chips walk all over it. And, yes, I've owned all of them.

The idea that R2R dacs have "unmatched bounce" or are more detailed is just ridiculous. The current generation of ESS chips are outstanding which is why they are used in many
very high end dacs

.
I am really sorry but I would have to say that you might be off on some points. I used to own a metrum onyx and then the Hugo TT2. The TT2 did sound better than the metrum. The metrum is a great dac. I have also hear the mytek and ayre that you were talking about. They are good but they are not some of the beat dacs out there by any means. The MSB line up are R2R based dacs and blow the mytek and ayre out of the water by a good margain.

I recently bought the dCS Bartok and imo it is head and shoulders above the dacs that you mention as well. It is not a traditional r2r but a version of on developed by dCS. They call it the ring dac which is fed by FPGAS. 

daledeee1 OP
The Denafrips would have been good except it is out of stock for 10 weeks.

The Denafrips Terminator and the Holo Spring Level 2 or 3 are very close, the Holo can also be switched to NOS (none upsampling) which I preferred, and it can do DSD if you ever need to listen to it.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/holoaudio-spring-kitsun%C3%A9-tuned-edition-level-3-da-processor

https://kitsunehifi.com/product/holo-audio-spring2-dac-kitsune-tuned-edition/
Holo now have the "even better" May Dac   https://kitsunehifi.com/product/holo-audio-may-dac/

This is a good paragraph from the Stereophile review to give an insight to it’s sound.

The Schiit, Mytek, and HoloAudio are all elite, music-friendly DACs. I enjoy each in its own way, but my comparisons suggest that staunch audio objectivists—those who already favor DACs with newfangled sigma-delta chips (like the ESS ES9028Pro will undoubtedly prefer the Mytek products.

Meanwhile, old-school audio reactionaries—those who favor the purity of single-ended triode amps and the musicality of all those discontinued R-2R DACs—will find the chipless Spring a refreshingly clear and unusually natural-sounding alternative to both sigma-delta and all those discontinued and "obsolete" DAC chips.

What most separated the HoloAudio from the Schiit and Mytek DACs was the Spring’s astonishing transparency, which seemed to reach deeper into the digital quiet—especially with DSD recordings.

Cheers George

Yes, George.  I started the thread.  The comment I made referred to discussions getting personal.  I don't understand that I guess.  I asked for differences between the two brands of chips.  It is ok that we talk about R2R also. I have learned much in the last couple months about DACs.  I bought the D90 for numerous reasons:  in stock, good reviews, cost vs benefit.  The Denafrips would have been good except it is out of stock for 10 weeks.  Most of the DAC mentioned, which I am sure are good, are simply not in my budget. Thanks for the help on me understanding this topic.  Not as simple as a turntable, receiver and speakers. 

I have a Bluesound Node 2i and purchased a ProJect S2 DAC and added it to my system and found I liked the Bluesound played better by itself.  I stream Tidal and when I connected the DAC to my Bluesound using Audioquest Carbon digital coax, it does not allow MQA to unfold completely.  There is something about MQA that is difficult to explain, but for some reason I hear something different when I listen to MQA,  I ended up selling the ProJect DAC and the digital coax cable on Audiogon for half the price I paid for it.  

I just read a review of an owner who had a Denafrips Term and a D90 and liked both of them. "Why can't we all just get along"  

Sorry but it's because this is the title of this thread, and if it bugs you, you shouldn't even click on it.

  "Comparison of latest DAC chips"

Cheers George  

Think about it.  This is 2020.  Since all of these are computer chip based regardless of R2R, hybrid or DS.  Shouldn't we able to get it right?  It is starting to sound like a tube vs SS argument.  I just read a review of an owner who had a Denafrips Term and a D90 and liked both of them.  "Why can't we all just get along"  Bill Clinton.  Me being rather frugal AKA "not rich"  I would go with the d90, which I did.

Saying a R2R DAC somehow manages to more accurately convert PCM which was made with a Delta Sigma ADC  than a Delta  Sigma DAC doesn't make much sense. The topology of the DAC isn't that important what's important is how well it's implemented they can all do a great job. 

R2R sounds more like vinyl with the rolled off high frequencies it's  probably why you like them .

No, it just is!

Resorting to insults now, George? 

I used to own a "good" R2R dac. I was not amazed.

Good for you Ross, stick with vinyl it's more your speed

George, you keep saying the same thing, and getting the same response. I'm sure most of us have done this. I used to own a "good" R2R dac. I was not amazed. I prefer my current delta sigma dac. 

Just have a listen to any PCM redbook 16/44 24/96 or DXD through a "good" R2R dac and be amazed, then play the same through any Delta Sigma dac and hear what you get, it’s a yawn.

Uh, yes most recordings are n PCM, what type of modulator do you think they use when they are making these recordings?  For example what do you think a TI PCM Audio ADC uses? They use delta sigma modulators. 

The "recording people" are not saying what you think they are saying. 

I think you have read that Mojo Audio web page without fully understanding it. 

If you can take in what the recording people are saying and work it out, there's no hope, over and out. 

George, all of your quotes are about recording in DSD. They say literally nothing about DACs. They certainly don't support your conjecture that delta sigma chips "do a poor job of decoding PCM". You will need to come up with something else.

Really! this once again because you missed it, as I posted way back.

" When a PCM file is played on a native DSD single-bit converter, the single-bit DS DAC chip has to convert the PCM to DSD in real-time.
This is one of the major reasons people claim DSD sounds better than PCM, when in fact, it is just that the DS chip in most modern single-bit DACs do a poor job of decoding PCM."

Your quotes are all about DSD vs PCM recordings. What has any of that got to do with delta-sigma or R2R?

Most all music we listen to is recorded to PCM.
https://ibb.co/Gv2G6LB
Quote from the DSD guide.com last year.
" Try teaching DSD recording to a PCM engineer... even the best... and you’ll find roadblocks and complaints of how hard it is to record in DSD."

Despite the marketing hype, there are almost no pure DSD recordings available to consumers. This is partially because up until quite recently there was no way to edit, mix, and master DSD files. So most pure DSD recordings that are commercially available are the rare DSD recordings made from a direct-to-analog recording, or those recorded direct to DSD without any post-production. There are some new studio software packages that can edit, mix, and master in DSD, but these are quite rare in the industry, and mostly used by small boutique recording companies. Most DSD recordings are, in fact, edited, mixed, and mastered in 5-bit PCM

Here are some statements from recording engineers.

"Recording in DSD and then converting PCM is only introducing noise into the PCM signal."

" Recording in DSD for a DSD only release, get the best from DSD."
There are almost no pure DSD recordings available to consumers.

" Recording in DSD to later convert to PCM, doesn’t make any sense"

Yes some DS dac lovers here are going to get testy over this post, but there it is.

Cheers George

"It's hard to take stuff posted by people who take extreme black and white positions seriously."

Amen. Well said.

Since most studios use Delta Sigma ADC's to create  PCM I'll guess the best way to convert it back is with Delta Sigma DAC's. The process used whether R2R, Delta Sigma,  Proprietary doesn't matter as much as how well the DAC is at getting a nice quiet accurate signal at the analog output. 

With bandwidth and sampling limitations, ringing and aliasing artifacts, all digital is only a facsimile of the original. R2R is no better than delta sigma in this respect, and has technical limitations of its own. 

Just search read and educate at the way PCM is converted in the best possible way.
Cheers George

@mtdining It's hard to take stuff posted by people who take extreme black and white positions seriously.  

DCS Ring dac converters are also similar to the newer top level stuff from Burr Brown and Analog Devices, being hybrid, which are part R2R and part DS, (Delta Sigma, 1bit, Single Bit, ESS, Bitstream) or whatever other pseudo names DS has.

Burr Brown/ Texas Instruments, Analog Devices now are doing "hybrids" with their better d/a converters, 4 or so bits of R2R and the rest DS. This makes them more expensive to make than DS but said to sound better, yet still no where near as expensive to make as full R2R was, the reason R2R was dropped in the first place and 1 bit DS (delta sigma) took over, because it was very much cheaper to manufacturer than R2R.

But things seem to be going full circle again and R2R is being shown for what it is, bit perfect for converting PCM, where DS is just a facsimile.

And many Dac makers are now doing full R2R again in "discrete form", and the results of the good ones are better than the last of the great full R2R converter chips from AD Texas/Burr Brown ect ect

Cheers George

In high end audio, it is always about the chef, not the parts. The Ayre Codex is still the most musical Dac I've heard under $5k. No two R2R Dacs will ever sound the same - they are based on the ridiculous premise that it is possible to find two resistors (in the real world) which are identical. I suppose I've contradicted myself, because R2R Dacs are bullsh** because of the nature of parts, however, if one has listened to Dacs made by DCS and Ayre, it is hard to take most of the stuff posted about here seriously.

Depends on what filters they use or if they build their own out board filter, even R2R dacs use filters. You didn't  like the Mola Mola Tambaqui  at $11,000 ? That's the top dac tested by ASR.

Even in George's list of R2R dacs which he claims are superior (I also have an R2R Audio Mirror T3-SE), it really is the implementation that matters.  The dacs on that list are going to sound very different from one another.  I'd contend that many would be judged as sounding just as different from one another as they would vs a dac based on a different chip/methodology.

Finally, although I do believe in measurements, it's definitely not everything.  I demoed the top measuring dac in the world for a month (as tested by audiosciencereview) and it did not impress.  It was the worst sounding dac among the bunch (Audio Mirror, Matrix, iFi, & Lampizator). 

It's an aural hobby, be guided by numbers, but the ears are the final judge.

It seems the ESS and AKM chips are meeting somewhere in the middle.  The ESS chips were maligned for glaring, too analytical, etc.  The AKM had a darker sometimes murky sound.  Reviews I see say both of them have solved the criticisms.  I know this can be a debate but I can only go by what I read since I can't A/B them.  The new AK4499 is supposed to be more open and has "slam"  I will find out by Friday.  The Topping is kind of heavy so the power supply should help??  Not an EE.