Class AB and mostly tubes....845's are the best I've found for SQ.......BUT, I just got the Peachtree GAN 400 with the Gallium-Nitride ganfet transistors....WOW. My system ( approx $15,000) took a Big leap...It's a "Different" sound.....more detail. That means it really raised my Pendragons to a new higher level of enjoyment ...the GAN technology is what raised the SQ in class D......Ice and Purfi are the old class D...if you want to try what This new buzz is....Peachtree...Orchard both under $3,000 for GAN....
Class D Amplification Announcement
After 60 some odd years of disappointment, Class D has finally arrived. As per The Absolute Sound’s Jonathan Valin, the Borrenson-designed Aavik P-580 amp “is the first Class D amplifier I can recommend without the usual reservations. …the P-580 does not have the usual digital-like upper-mid/lower-treble glare or brick wall-like top-octave cut-off that Class D amps of the past have evinced.”
Past designers of Class D and audiophiles, rejoice; Michael Borrenson has finally realized the potential of Class D.
172 responses Add your response
It’s technology. It will change. I personally think we don’t much understand how our brain interprets reproduced sound, leading to a whole host of different personal preferences. I like Magnepan speakers. I can’t drive them with flea-watt amps. I think high-power Class A is environmentally irresponsible. Class D is a great choice. Give it a tube front end and find what you like. |
in all seriousness, alberto guerro’s agd audion mono’s are the best sounding gan/class d amps i have heard, and while they have their own sound character, they are - to my ear - as good as the very best class a or a/b amps i have had, of which i have had countless vastly superior to any hypex purifi or other non-gan module based amps i have had or heard, which to me seem to 'grey out' the music some harmonically even if the tonal balance is good |
I've been using a Pass X250.8 and then XA30.8 spread over the last 7 years and love the sound. I recently purchased a pair of the Atmasphere Class D GaNFET monos to compare with my XA30.8 and so far have been very happy with them. They may not be fully broken in yet and I have yet to switch back to the Pass so I'm still not done doing my listening comparisons. But as a big Pass fan I can say I definitely like their general sound. I find them to be very smooth and warm just like my Pass with nice natural tone. I don't find them fatiguing at all. I think they also image extremely well just like my XA30.8 which to me is one of the best imaging amps I've heard at home. If you like the sound of Pass and get the chance to hear the Atmasphere GaNFET monos, I would take it as you may just like them, even though they are Class D... |
Well, this thread went in a direction different than what I had in mind. I own class D amps, SET amps, and AB amps, but I didn't really want to get into the relative merits of each. What I had in mind was to discuss the irresponsible ways that audio gurus 'infilict' their opinions and biases on us poor audiophiles. |
@jjss49 Thanks for mentioning the AGD amps. How would you compare to an all-tube system in general? To be more specific, let's say if someone like the tube sound and has not been satisfied with SS ... should this person consider AGD? P.S. I'm in no way implying that tubes are better than SS or vice versa. But for my personal taste in music, tubes offer something that SS does not. Of course, just the opposite can be true for someone else. |
Coming from being familiar with pro amps, I had some adverse opinions regarding using them for Hi-Fi. Ok for HT, but not Hi-FI. Had class AB most of my life in my stereo setups. Then an opportunity came to test some lightly used MBL N15 Class D monoblock amps. There was a little glare, but they sounded so clean and powerful, with great bass of course, overall significantly better than my ARC Ref 160M (within my setup). Changed my cables from silver to copper and it got better. I took the plunge and bought them. Several months have passed and they have just gotten better. Visiting audiophile friends confirm this, they cannot identify them as a Class D anymore just from listening. Perhaps they needed enough burn-in? I believe the original owner gave up on them too soon. MBL’s LASA technology has been around for a while but it does not seem to get all the merit it deserves. This experience opened my eyes to the progress of class D amp technology. |
+1 For AGD Audions I used to be a die hard SET guy. No more. And now no other amp but the AGD Class D. Compared to any amp IME, AGD is in a class of its own. A GaN based amp but the designer holds several patents from when he was a top exec at Infineon-major European chip company. One patent is for his proprietary, unique GaN module. He describes it as being dedicated to be used in Audio. Compared to other GaN chips designed for use in such things as radar, The result are AGD amps that are superbly like real music. All the best of SS and tubes… to put it mildly. |
@mglik please be specific on what you have compared the AGD amps to? Merrill? Atmasphere? Others? Thanks |
hard for me to answer specifically, as i am sure you can understand, all tube systems can vary alot in their degree of softness at the frequency extremes and their midrange ’bloom’ i still have alot of tube gear, mostly audio research tube amps (ref 110, 75, vt 100-2, v70, vt60) and still one a c-j linestage (et7-ii) and a don sachs pre - none of which i use hardly at all anymore... but my point in mentioning this is i clearly like a more extended, powerful and more transparent presentation, even from tubed gear that said, i would summarize (as i did in an earlier post quite a while back when i first got the audions) what they do is rather like a beneficial cross-breed between the best of tubes and ss -- treble is very clear, extended, fast and high resolution, but still exceptionally smooth and not at all harsh (think of a very very high resolution color photo or video picture, where the pixel count is so high that the texture is actually velvety, with absolutely zero perceptible grain or grit...) -- mids are also very natural, detailed, fleshed out, but in proportion to the treble and bass, and not moved forward or accentuated relative to them (to many the forward and magnified midrange can be a defining aspect of tube-sonics... ) -- bass is airy but exceptionally tuneful deep and solid... here definitely this aspect is tip top solid state, which exceeds that of pretty much any tube amp -- short of truly mega ones with hundreds of watts of output power (think vtl wotan or arc ref600/610) -- imaging is very open wide and deep, layered and highly specific... one can argue if image depth is 100% as good as my arc ref amps on their best day, but it is very close... i find that front end quality is very highly determinative of imaging/soundstaging quality -- and of course, the behavior of the audions with low impedance loads is characteristic of a good ss amp, without the limitations of the classic output transformer based tube power amps hope the above helps... i do believe that agd dealers (and alberto himself, if bought directly) will still extend a trial period with return privileges several other agd owners are here, they can chime in to add to or differ from my observations above |
I have to say I love technology debates because they have been ranging forever. I have a Technics SU-R1000 that replaced a McIntosh Integrated (MA-6300). TAS also loved this integrated, but it was Stereophile's review wherein they compared it to the Technics SU-G700 which is the lower cost version in order to discuss the differentials as well as to S-Phile's review and Artkinson's extensive testing reveal an amazing array of new technology. The LAPC and JENO circuits are real tech. I think it took a company the size of Matshusita Electric (Panasonic) to produce a $10,000 digital (not D per se) integrated that is phenomenal against most A/B comers. It also weighs 54 pounds, built with superb capacitors, unlike lighter (see Marantz, NAD, et al) Class D amps that feel lighter and tinny and ones that did not advance the new tech properly. I am not here to advocate any singular position--but there are always revolutionary changes in HiFi that shake industry standards every generation or so. Tubes gave way to stable solid state Class A and then Class A/B amplifiers. Tubes are making a rebound as millenials and genzers flex their economic muscle in seeking retro tech like fine turntables and tube amps (I recently purchased a McIntosh MA252 hybrid and put in Golden Lion Russian tubes--sweet for a 2nd office system). Tubes are warm, but not as reliable as well-built solid state--technology moves forward regardless of nostalgia. The reason why I think more manufacturers will be using their resources in developing Digital and even lower cost Class D amps is in part due to the energy efficiency. With traditional energy sources so expensive, a class A amp that needs 600 watts to produce a 150 watts per channel at 8 ohms is the equivalent of a 1970's gas guzzling V8. Digital amps are the rough equivalent of a Tesla that can go 0-60 in 4 seconds with efficient battery power. Sorry gang, market forces drive changes. Is this new Borrenson designed Digital amp the epitome' or state of the art? Well, at $30,000 + it should be. The tell-tale will be at the sub-10,000 range. Oh wait, Technics is already there. |
@jjss49 Really appreciate the detailed response. If I didn't know any better, I would have said "too good to be true." :) But since I'm well aware of your experience and expertise, I have to say that this is a ringing endorsement of AGD. A few days ago, I opened a thread about the possibility of moving from integrated to separates, but I purposely requested an all-tube solution (amp and preamp). Based on your impressions, I'm very tempted to give AGD a shot. I have gone back and forth between tubes and SS, and each time I come to the same conclusion that for my taste and preferences, tubes appeal to me the most and pull me in emotionally better than SS amps. If I'm forced to pick only one or two attributes of tube amplification that appeal to me the most, it has to be the holographic/3D soundstage and the lit-from-within qualities that good tube amplification does it better than SS (of course, in my opinion only). How do you think AGD compares in this aspect? Are there any shortcomings (vis-a-vis tubes) that you can think of? Sorry, I know I'm asking you a lot of questions but I'm very intrigued now :) |
Sorry I disagree. To reduce the appeal of tube-based amplification to merely "millenial rebound and genzers flexing their muscles" is incredibly presumptuous and short-sighted. Many of us have started with SS, gone back and forth between tube and SS, and prefer tubes based on our listening preferences. It has nothing to do with making fashion statements or nostalgia. Secondly, well-made tube amps from reputable companies are very reliable. If you choose wisely and buy from established tube vendors, most tubes are also very reliable. Of course, they have a shelf life but we all make that decision with this understanding. And lastly, the segment for class A amps, compared to the overall audio market is minuscule and limited to a tiny subsection of enthusiasts. I seriously doubt that, given the small market share, it puts a dent in the environment. The analogy with motor vehicles is flawed and a bit exaggerated. |
Did it mention which class D amps JV had in house for extended listening? I seriously doubt it Several years ago I bought a EVS 1200 that Ric Schultz designed around the identical IcePower modules PS Audio uses in their 3xs as expensive M1200s, that Michael Fremer bought. About a year later, after numerous testing delays, LSA introduced the Voyager 350 GaN amp @ $3000 but routinely discounted to $2399. Is the Audion, or Atmosphere 2+Xs better? I'm sure they are both excellent, BUT, I seriously doubt it |
Love this q and a with Bruno.
S&V: Generally speaking, what are the key benefits of Class D versus the traditional Class AB and Class A designs that have long been favored by audiophiles? |
@arafiq I run the AGD Tempo with a Backert preamp. Best of both worlds. |
@twoleftears Nice! |
Oh, you mean a Crown XLi 2500 isn't "audiophile" grade then at $595. Guess not. |
No!
I agree! My class A monoblock amps, have a power consumption of 65 watts. 😎 Mike |
I have not heard the Merril or Atma-Sphere GaN amps. I can only speak directly about all the tube and solid state amp I have owned. And to a lessor degree, amps that I have heard at shows and friend’s homes. The review by @jjss49, I feel, gives an accurate breakdown of AGD’s performance. IME, the AGD Audions produce SQ that is different and unique. Partially, AGD’s designer clearly has a great ear. And partly, he has created an amp that reproduces all the “broad strokes” and, especially, the subtitles that take SQ from great to “real”. One key of these is hearing the phrasing of musicians. Something that is both subtitle and profound. I have only heard this quality with AGD. |
not sure how to answer... i would say that most low powered sweetie-pie tube amps provide a level of 2nd order harmonics that give voices and instruments a certain glow and lusciousness... i do not feel that the agd’s really do that nearly as much, its midrange is more neutral (if well detailed, very dimensional and ’human’ to my ear) but i don’t think anyone would mistake the agd female vocal reproduction to sound like that of a 300b 10 watt single ended amp .... then again, the agd’s speed, control and its own sense of very high purity in driving a much much wider range of normal and even hard to drive speakers needs to be factored in imaging wise, i think the agd’s are really excellent - and as @twoleftears says one can always go tube linestage into agd power amp for an infusion of tubey goodness with very few of the downsides relative to what may be your current, traditional tube amp, i really don’t think there are any downsides... or rather, maybe there are simply 7500 of them 🤣 |
Look, you guys are spending a lot of time, effort, and money trying to find out which class D amp is worth listening to, and I appreciate that, but Jonathan Valin has already done all the important work for you. As he said in the most recent issue of TAS, the Aavik P-580 is the FIRST class D amp that, in his HUGE experience, is worth listening to! So rejoice, start saving, and then go out and get one! |
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Following on from @jjss49 's post, I agree completely with what he says. For a good number of years I owned a Cary 300B-based SET amp, and no, no solid-state amp (be it A, A/B, D or whatever) can produce certain sonic attributes that it can. That being said, the AGD does things that a 11-watt SET amp cannot. The Tempo (slightly more powerful than the Audions) is hooked up to Harbeth 40.2's. The other night I put on a CD of Bax's Symphony no. 3. There are some thunderous bass passages, and this was the best I've heard from any system I've had in-house. I'm more than happy with some quality 12AU7's in the signal path, but you could go 6SN7 or there are even a few preamps that use 300Bs. |
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@jjss49 and @twoleftears : Thank you for sharing your impressions of AGD products. I'm very intrigued and will definitely reach out to AGD once I'm ready to make a move. I think the combination of a tube linestage and AGD Audion or Tempo is something that might fit the bill perfectly -- i.e. more power but without sacrificing the 'tubey goodness' (thanks jjss49) that I've come to appreciate so much. One thing I don't understand is the difference between Audion and Tempo. It seems like Tempo is more powerful, yet Audion is a bit more expensive. What justifies the additional cost of Audion (besides the fact that it is a monoblock of course)? There is a price difference but it's not substantial. I will call AGD and get more info but please feel free to share further impressions. |
<< The Borrenson may be a monster amp and you may well be right. But I’ve given up reading TAS reviews because they’re nothing but self-affirming grandstanding that provide absolutely no value to me whatsoever. I recently confronted another one of their writers on another post and he actually lied and said he made comparisons in his review. He flat out lied and other members called him out on it as well. He disappeared never to be heard from again. It was Andrew Quint by the way — might as well call a spade a spade. TAS is a sham of a review mag. My opinion as a professional reviewer myself is that they don’t do comparisons to avoid accountability and so they can crank out reviews at a higher rate to generate more ad revenues. It literally doubles the time to do a review when you do comparisons to other equipment. At Soundstage it was mandatory to do a comparison section, and if you didn’t have a piece of equipment comparable to a review unit you just didn’t get to do the review. Period. Hell, in many TAS reviews they don’t even bother to list the equipment in the reference system much less make comparisons. Complete lack of rigor and discipline, which is why their reviews are utterly useless except for generating ad revenue. Too bad, because they actually “review” a lot of equipment I’d like to get a feel for. Sorry, I’ll get off my soapbox now. Suffice it to say this is a huge pet peeve of mine and I find it to be absolutely unprofessional and inexcusable.>>
Wow. "Huge pet peeve"? Now that’s an understatement. Writers are (and should be) part of the Audiogon community but it shouldn’t come as a surprise that most "lurk" and don’t participate in forums publicly. I like to, and more often than not, it doesn’t end well. For the record, I acknowledged the point that many published reviews could be improved by more explicit comparisons of the review product to competing gear. I said that, personally, I’d try to do better and, in fact, just submitted a review of a processor with a DAC section retailing at $4K that I felt equaled my reference $47K component, and said so. But I have never "lied" about anything. I tried to explain how one effort to make such a comparison, in a review of the 342 EVO Aeon server, fell apart when the USB output on my reference Baetis server stopped working and I had to cut short the A/B comparisons before I could come to a confident conclusion. I did make the comparison but couldn’t write about it for the review, because it would have been irresponsible to do so. This kind of thing happens all the time in the course of reviewing audio gear. Does anyone know who "soix" is? He says he’s a reviewer and mentions Soundstage but won’t use his name, which strikes me as both disingenuous and cowardly. I have ideas, as there are one or two other online audio writers who do this. They tend to be eventually outed and booted from reputable sites. Mostly, they are recognized as the bitter, envious, and mean-spirited people they’ve evidently become. I love this hobby and hope with all my heart I’m never afflicted in that fashion. Andy Quint TAS
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@aquint You’re kidding with this, right? The dog ate your homework excuse? This is insulting to the intelligence of the people on this site. Don’t make me go back and copy the prior discourse — it will not go well for you. And no, this kind of thing absolutely does NOT happen all the time when reviewing audio gear. I reviewed equipment for 16 years and this never happened to me, not even once. Hey Andy, my name is Tim Shea and you can look up my reviews on Soundstage. I’m not hiding from anything, and I stand by my reviews — ALL of which have comparison sections BTW — and I don’t have to twist myself in knots trying to defend my less-than-rigorous reviews. All that said, I’m glad you’ve finally seen the light and are open to doing comparisons in future reviews, and if you can manage to get the other TAS writers onboard you might even win back some of us here who gave up on your “reviews.” |
I did look over four or five of Tim’s reviews and can say this: He’s a good audio writer. If he’s not now working regularly for a publication, online or print, it’s too bad for all of us. Though I’ve already acknowledged that a need for more comparisons in my own reviews is a valid criticism, my sense from reading Tim’s stuff is that the practice is overrated. In those reviews of Tim’s I read, he typically notes one other product, usually the one in the class he already owns or has recently reviewed. This scans well—every Soundstage! Review has "comparisons"—but I’m not so sure how helpful it actually is to a prospective purchaser, as there are likely a dozen candidates that he or she is considering, and Tim’s comparison product may not be among them. From my point of view, it’s more helpful to use the language of subjective audio reviewing and comparisons to live music to define the character of the gear being considered. We are just hoping to help a reader develop a short list of products to audition in the flesh, if that’s at all possible. This is my opinion, and I’m not saying it’s my way or the highway. Now that we’re on a first-name basis, Tim, maybe we can agree to disagree without personal invective or the broad-brush dismissals of writers (like Jonathan) who have been at this a while, or publications that may just occasionally have something helpful to offer to audiophiles of all stripes. |
@aquint +1 Andy Quint. |
Yes Andy, on this point we will continue to disagree, but that’s ok. There’s always room for more than one opinion in the room, and if your method works for you and the readers still feel they get something out of it that’s really all that matters. As they say there’s always more than one way to skin a cat, different strokes for different folks, etc. I have to say it’s always nice to link up with a fellow reviewer because nobody knows what it’s really like to write product reviews except those who actually do it, and there are those on this site and elsewhere who completely dismiss what we do because we don’t trash products we review. I have my own thoughts on this, but I’m sure you know what I’m talking about. Cheers, Tim |
if you reach out to alberto i think you will find him responsive and very knowledgeable... obviously he will champion his (excellent) product and he will clearly explain how the audion monos differ from the one chassis stereo model in technical and practical terms you are experienced at this hobby now, so i am sure that if/when you get an agd amp, you will listen to it on its own first, before coupling with tubed gear in the chain... you may well be surprised you may not want/need add’l ’tubey goodness’, (which certainly comes at a price monetarily, and usually, also sonically, to some degree, while bringing its gains) i think i have mentioned this in an earlier post... i have been a hard-n-fast die-hard tube gear guy since the 90’s, i have much tube gear and boxes and boxes of so many tubes, but as my streaming journey has progressed since 2020, as the front end has gotten purer and purer, i now am ecstatic about the quality of sound i am getting without a single vacuum tube in the chain - i've come to realize how much of my perceived need for tubes in the chain was palliative in nature, solving for digititis and/or solid state artifacts introduced in the source and amp stages... in this crazy, unpredictable journey i have been on, i would never, never have thought i would be here... |
Andrew and Tim, welcome to this thread, you have certainly injected new life into it. I applaud you both for engaging, names exposed, on a user's forum. Andrew, assuming you are still affiliated with TAS, I am very appreciative of your candor. This is exactly the attitude that is needed to elevate TAS back to respect-worthy status. TAS Editor, are you listening? I forwarded this thread you several days ago, but you did not respond. |
@jjss49 I thought this was a very interesting point — as digital has gotten better with less edge, glare, etc. while simultaneously improving significantly in its ability to portray tone and microdynamics it’s at the point where it can now stand on its own without needing tubes to cover up former deficiencies. That Ralph, the quintessential OTL tube supporter, now manufactures a GaN amp I think jibes with your experience. Great time to be an audiophile. |
Michael Borresen is one sharp guy and it still amazes that he can design world-class speakers, and then go into amplifiers and other items as well. Prior Aavik pieces seem well-regarded (despite the prices of all Borresen designed items). And then there is the obscene pricing for sn... oil products... I have DSP room correction and minor DSP equalization and my good old McCormack DNA-1 as musical as it is, cannot hold a candle to my Class D W4S STI-1000. The W4S Class D integrated is silent at the speakers and runs 500w/1000w which is plenty for the old Raidho D2s. I get pure liquid detail and an iron grip on bass. I've never had a super expensive Cl A or AB to compare, but I am very happy now. |
