CDs And Green Markers. Please Don’t Laugh.
I’m sorry. I apologize. If anything has been done to death, it’s this. And yet . . .
I was pulling “Darkness On The Edge Of Town” out of my CD player the other day and wondering if Bruce had really made peace with his father when I noticed the edge of the disc was green. Looking through my collection, I found a bunch of them so marked. “Let It Be” by The Replacements. “Murmur.” Stuff that came out during the brief period after the introduction of the CD and before the green pen became an embarrassment.
I should give a quick kudos to the albums that have survived countless culling that keeps my active collection at about 500 discs. Discs that are easily stored because I always take the discs and printed media out of the ridiculous plastic “jewel” cases and put them in DiscSox, an invention I can’t believe has been overlooked by the Nobel committee. 500 discs fits into five trays from Office Depot and the whole collection takes up about 16x30 inches and the height of a CD. I can’t imagine living with the original packaging.
I never A/B’ed any of the albums with the green marking. Never looked into the science of the green pen. Back in the day, it was cheap, it was easy, and it was supposed to work. Why not try it? When it became a laughingstock, I stopped.
But like skinny ties, I assume that green markers have come in and out of vogue many times since 1982. I love a good tweak and wonder if anyone has justified the use of the green marker. I’m not looking far a scientific explanation. Herbie’s Super Black Hole actually works but without anything close to a reason for doing so. I’d be thrilled if the same was true if green pens.
Besides, those looking for science in audio forums should familiarize themselves with a priori reasoning, and the problems attendant upon it.
Where have I gone? Why so much wandering? Is it because the initial question is so stupid? Still, I’d like to know: Has anything happened since, say, 1985, that would make greening the edge of CDs sensible?
If not, I promise to apologize and slink quietly back into the darkness.
Funny thing is, every disc that I treated with ‘CD Stoplight’ sounds great. They are still among my collection, and I very well may have treated those that I thought sounded good in the first place- so confirmation bias or something like that? Like you, I never conducted A/B comparisons, and seem to have applied the product in a random fashion, so I can draw no conclusions. I don’t know why it came to be treated with such derision; did it somehow prove to be detrimental? |
First I went to the Disc Sox www. What a poorly designed site. Line drawings do not convey what the product actually looks like. A YouTube video would be nice Which product did you buy? As to greening, a vastly superior way of maximizing every CD comes from Machina Dynamica, called New Dark Matter. Do it once for every CD you play. It looks like thin dark mica. It comes a package of 10 squares + 10 double sided squares that you cut to fit inside your tray. I covered 2 slide out trays with it. Alas, I now have a Audiolab 6000 CDT that I don’t know whether it can be placed in. The cover would have to be removed... New Dark Matter NDM, the newest product from Machina Dynamica, is the only audio product that absorbs both visible scattered laser light and invisible scattered light in CD players, thereby improving optical signal to noise ratio, thus improving sound quality. The CD laser nominal wavelength is 780 nm, which is about 80 nm longer than the longest visible red wavelength, 700 nm. The laser is not monochromatic but has an effective wavelength range of around 650-850 nm. This means most of the laser light, and scattered light, is INVISIBLE. The portion of the laser light below 700 nm is visible red, presumably as a safety feature. HTH
|
I didn’t see any line drawings so I wonder if you went to the right site. Entering disc sox takes you to mmdesign.com. The company has diversified wildly, probably because there’s only so much money that you can make from selling 6” plastic sleeves. On the list of products, find “Music CD Storage.” Click more info. At the bottom of the next page you’ll find “CD Standard Plus Sleeves.” $8.95 for 25 That’s all you need They sell lots of fancier versions that I’ve never tried but I’m guessing are more trouble than they’re worth
You do need something to hold the CDs, though As I said, Office Depot (now the Late Office Depot?) sold perfectly sized metal racks. The DiscSox racks are probably fine, I just haven’t tried them. i have absolutely no affiliation with the company For 20 years I’ve been stunned at what a lousy packaging CDs have traditionally been packed in, and what a simple, elegant solution DiscSox are. Discovering them was a life changing—not to mention space saving—event.
|
| Post removed |
Dill, I’m sorry but I don’t understand your post. “Not to those who never tried it.” Because those people don’t understand the beauty of green edged CDs? They don’t know the aural beauty that could be theirs? They haven’t seen the double blind, peer reviewed study from MIT that gushed over the power of the green marker?” Is that what you were trying to say? |
Well the Krell cd20i I have bathes the cd in green led light on both sides of the tray. But I guess that and the massive power supplies etc don't do any good to anyone who thinks they have the best cd player ever made because it was ten dollars full price at Walmart. Many may sayers think that a forty dollar DAC is much better than the twenty year old multi bit DACs quite frankly I have never heard a new DAC or new streamer that can come anywhere close to one of my older truely reference quality cd player from 29 or more years ago. In my opinion half of the best cd player I have ever heard have the ultra analog DAC in themthe Linn CD 12 is top notch as well as the dcs pair and the sonic frontier dac and transport three. The krell20cdi and the Wadia seperates are both special as well as the levinson top pair and the Oracle transport as well as the meridian transport from those day are pure and simple a cut the at above the current junk they are selling.
|
Take any cd and play 20 seconds of the first track....then squirt a few drops of Armour All and wipe clean...The surface will be "smoother"....now play that same 20 seconds and the improvement is startling. Better readability of the laser dramatically improves all aspects of the sound. I've been doing this for many years and it does NOT hurt the disc. If anything, it preserves it. If you're scared, try it on a disc you don't like...You may just start to like it a little more. It really makes a difference for the better....The beloved Auric Illuminator works on the same principal but the AA is much less costly and I think it sounds better. Remember LAST......Enjoy the music...not the Electronics ! |
There is also another product that helps @buddyboy1 and it’s the ultra bit platinum. I don’t even know if they still make it but you squirt it on the disc and polish it clean with a felt rag that’s included. Not really sure if it changes the sound all that much but it will clean the disc and has fixed discs with errors, I assume because of smudges etc. sounds like your on the right track but for a lot cheaper. |
Here is your Ultra Bit Platinum. https://www.jenalabs.com/buy-now/ultrabit_diamond-plus.html |
The way it was explained to me and it makes a lot of sense is.....the laser hits the disc and then comes back to the reader....since discs are mass produced, they are not entirely a smooth surface...they are pitted thus causing the laser going back to the reader to be scattered because of that pitted surface of the cd. The reader is only receiving about 90% of the actual information that's on the disc because of this defraction of the signal. When you treat the surface with a substance that "fills in the pits "...it creates a glassier surface that allows 100% of the information to come back to the Reader thus giving you the exact info that was originally embedded on the disc because the Pitted disc has been re- surfaced to smooth making the entire reading system more accurate. Bingo...better retrieval...better sound. |
I had a friend that worked at a Sony disc manufacturing plant here in Eugene years ago. They had a listening room with Dunlavy speakers and someone got paid to listen to CDs to make sure there weren't gross errors like mixed up track order, incomplete songs, AC hum that somehow got recorded, obvious stuff like that. He pointed out to me that the error correction method on the CD and the CD players had been tested to be quite good, and they saw no improvement from green markers. Data that was intended to go on the CD from their ram stacks was what was reaching the DAC. Of course they didn't try all CD players and there could be individual CDs with problems that a little treatment would be just enough to fix. |
As I wrote earlier, I’m a reformed Armor-All user. The 1980s must have been a bull market for audio tweaks because besides the green pen and AA, I also followed a rumor that plain ol’ dishwashing detergent was another sound booster. I diligently washed every new CD I bought. Of all of the tweaks, I thought Dawn or Ivory Liquid or whatever my mother had on hand was the best of ‘em. But eventually I quit them all. My skeptical, cynical personality was forming—a career in journalism would solidify it—and I had no time for such unscientific antics.
Indirectly, however, I have continued to use dishwashing detergent. When one of my discs develops a skip, it makes a trip to the kitchen sink. After a good rubdown, 99 percent of the problems disappear.
(I’ve seen advice on this site that discs should be washed in a radial manner, starting at the center and moving outwards. I believe that this is an example of one of the core beliefs in audio: Whatever is the most trouble sounds the best. Vinyl instead of CDs, manual instead of auto, CD players that require two boxes instead of one. Trust me, the same thing happens no matter which way the sponge hits the disc.)
Anyway, I’m playing discs that have been coated in something like the way that buddyboy’s have. And they’ve always sounded better after a good scrubbing. Not enough to risk ridicule, not enough to overcome my inborn skepticism, but a nagging feeling that comes back whenever I wash a disc.
Maybe buddyboy has pushed me over the hump. Maybe he is providing me enough support to risk mockery. Besides, who has to know? It can be a secret between the Armor-All and me. And the small group reading this thread.
I think that AA will last longer than dish soap. One bottle will probably last a lifetime. Maybe tomorrow will be the dawning of a new era. I’ve been making upgrades for the past year and so many things I once thought were frauds have proved true. Speaker cables. Burn-in. The Super Black Hole was the leap over the moon. None of those phenomenon have been sufficiently explained to me but that hasn’t stopped any of them from being true. Buddyboy and I are leading a charge into a new world. Who’s with us? LET’S GO!
[Bluto charges from the room. No one follows.]
|
Here is some non audible proof the green pen does something beneficial to a disc. Bought an used Police SACD that was supposed to be in great shape. My default setting was stereo SACD. Every time I played it in the Yamaha 1800 SACD player it locked up. The Yamaha froze so badly, it had to be unplugged from the wall to clear. Tried cleaning the disc multiple times with no luck. I'd switch the player to multi channel SACD, before playing the disc, and all was fine. Except I forgot to switch 5 or 6 times and the player locked up every time. One day I used a green Sharpie pen to paint inside hole and outside disc edge. To this day, the Yamaha has never locked up playing that disc in stereo SACD. Thanks, aldnorab |
Interesting. Sounds like you are an ideal candidate to try Machina Dynamica New Dark Matter. I wrote about it the other day Also I wash all new cds with a DROP of organic soap and distilled/RO water in a dish barely covering the cd before playing. Do a before and after Ill bet you hear the improvement. Also, Ive tried a bunch of so-called treatments. Over time they oxidize and cloud the disc. This causes the music to sound dull. Wash them off! |
| Post removed |
The so called science has to do with the laser hitting the pits and bouncing throughout the disc under the label. Greening the edge mostly contained it. I found and tried many treatments. The best IMO is New Dark Matter, which is thin dark mica looking squares that the user cuts to fit the tray. Comes with double sided adhesive to secure to the tray.
hth |
Last month I had to clean the plastic headlight lenses of an older Ford Taurus. I bought a Turtle Wax kit, "Headlight Lens Restorer." Inside is a bottle called Spray Lubricant. This works great on both sides of a cd. Cost of the kit is less than $20. The final treatment consists of applying and removing Chisto products, wiping with carbon fiber material, treating both sides with a Walker Talisman, and a 10 second stint on top of a Schumann Resonator, music side-down. Magic. |
Science doesn't agree and nor do lots of actual people, including the editor of Stereo Review and High Fidelity with his actual measurements. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/bewaring-of-the-green/ |
Now I sound like the crank, but I just can’t help myself. Like virtually every thread on this site, this thread has degenerated into a priori or a posteriori thinking. Would-be physicists take a result—or, in this case, more likely an imagined result—and work backward to develop a theory that explains it.
|
I've used the the stoplight green marker for years. More like paint dispenser so be carful. or you'll find as much on your finger tips. But it does wipe away if spilled on the playing side of the cd. One can press down on something like a piece of paper to get the green paint to replenish the felt tip if left unused for a time. However it supposed to work, it does. I've noticed less high frequency glare and harshness, more smoother highs. but it wears out along the cd edges over time. so I tried something. An indelible ink marker. it too helped with the highs as well. So I've marked over the green paint with the black marker ( after the green dries of course) and it works by putting a protective layer over the green. So there's no wearing out. |
@tweak1 is that you, Geoff Kait??? If so, we've seriously missed you! |
@cdc Just scrolled down and saw your post. Yes it is time consuming and messy, but well worth the time and effort I should add I also have a German CD Edge Cutter. First heard it at a Chicago audio show at least a decade ago. My biz partner brought his cd radio, so we had them cut a disc of which we had a copy and played it in our room. Amazing, even played on a $30 CRAP BOX |
@paul6001 --OP, this thread has been invaluable to me--not for the green marker about which i won't comment--but for the CD storage solution you presented above. El Wifo has demanded i move CD collection and your solution will allow me to place entirely within a cabinet in an organized, flip-through system that saves a lot of space--cheap and effective--Thanks again |
Life changing, right? I don’t know what I would do if I had to stack up those plastic boxes. It’s a mystery why everyone hasn’t changed. The “jewel case” was invented by an assistant manager in the shipping department at Sony in 1979 and we’ve been stuck with it ever since. It’s like 35mm film. A hundred years ago, guy who started Leica designed it to shoot in an unwieldy 2x3 format and photographers have been cropping ever since. Kudos to Apple for inching towards something better. I don’t know about you but even after 1,000 discs I still feel gratified every time I put everything into a DiscSock and toss the plastic box. |
Sorry for chiming in so late. Since the „invention“ of green paint I have been using it and changed to black ink (Edding permanent) some time later. Most A/B listening tests resulted in a better performance of all kinds and genres of music. So I automatically apply black paint on newly acquired (SA)CDs; it’s become a habit. If in doubt, why not just trying it for yourself? It costs ‚nothing‘ but a little time. (FWIW, I listen with Krell Cipher SACD Player and Conrad-Johnson PR-12 tube amps.) Good luck & enjoy the music! |
I remember the green marker days, as previously mentioned, I have the German Edge cutter machine, which is gathering dust (make me a reasonable offer) Machina Dynamica has been in the taming scattered laser light game for decades. His latest and GREATEST product is called NEW DARK MATTER. It looks like Mica, is applied to the tray under the CD and absorbs/neutralizes all? scattered laser light inside the mechanism, which is the reason for greening. Don’t think twice: do it |
Since the system is based on reflected light detected by a sensor, its certainly possible that mucking with the color of the disc could produce some effect. Does ot actually do that? Don’t know. For example, green light is in the middle of the part of the EM spectrum that human eyes can see. Assuming the sensor in the player detects visible light similarly to a human eye, which is just an assumption for argument purpose…don’t know the tech details of the light sensor in a CD player, If you see green now where it was essentially white prior, that means red and blue light is absorbed and that change might produce different results.
Might….
Should be easy to verify if so by someone with proper technical knowledge of how CD players are designed. No leap of faith should be required. In general blue or higher frequency light scatters more (hence the sky is blue) so anything that reduces relative levels of blue light should probably be better. That’s just my assessment. Maybe someone with more technical knowledge of CD optical drive design can speak to it better. I would only add that I would expect a good CD player design to already take the facts into account in the design and not rely on external tweaks for optimal performance. But you never know. Designs are not necessarily created equal. If it’s a cheap tweak that makes up for some design flaw, so be it.
What would surprise me is if the tweak made a big difference with a truly high quality CD player. Much less likely I would assert.
|
