CD transport vs.streaming

People I know who are into streaming report listening experiences more aligned with @ghdprentice than @mapman . They find very distinct differences and improvement as server/streamer quality rises. Just my observation. 

Charles 

@sns

Ah that’s why they call it a hobby

Enjoy the tinkering.

All I can do is report on my personal experience.

NOT distinctly different, NOT identical like the OP.

A quality streaming setup is gonna outperform a cruddy CDP every time.

​​​​​​​Probably. 

When you stream music that's encoded using a lossless codec what goes to your DAC is identical to what comes from a CD. When you stream from a free streaming service there's a good chance that you're getting a compressed stream that has lower quality. I rip CDs to WAV format, which saves music in exactly the same format it has on the CD. And as far as I can tell it sounds the same when I play it.

@densely You must have been reading some posts from Georgehifi, he would constantly post about a few streams vs cd that measured slightly different then made generalizations about streaming compression. I want to see proof of mass compression of streams, otherwise only anecdotal evidence based on .000001% of recordings.

I think that CD’s and Streaming can sound equally good but in both cases it depends on the master used on both the CD and the copy the streaming service is using and it also depends on the electronics being used for each media source.

As far as CD’s go in many cases I prefer my old original AAD CD’s sourced and mastered from the original analog tapes but that is not 100%.

I run my Bluesound Node 2i through the DAC in my Moon 260D CD player and with balanced cables to my preamplifier. If the original source on both the CD and streamed file are good they will sound equally fantastic.

There was a reason CD was decided to be sampled at 44.1kHz. Many many many experiments were done and it was observed that 99.9% of the people could not hear any difference above that sampling rate (the other 0.1% descended from dogs).

Raising the sampling frequency will only push up the nasties from the filters to higher frequencies. So, up sampling does not improve the sound, it simply pushes up the filter artifacts to higher frequencies, hence giving the impression that the sound is ’cleaner’.

However, if very good designed and cleaner filters (more expensive to implement), are used, the 44.1 khz will sound almost exactly as good as your 23456234098634256 Mhz upsampled $34,000,000 music gear :-)

That is why most of the time, as well as is the case with you, you will not notice that much improvement with much higher up sampled music.

Buying a good quality CD player with a very good filter stage at its DAC will sound just as good.

Here is a good educational video:

rvpiano

another reason I posted my ’better player quest’ is because many people have gotten rid of or stopped using their CD players, stopped playing their actual CDs. Your subject implies re-discovery to people who stream. Even though I don’t stream, I had to re-discover my CDs. I suppose there is a category who have never actually owned/played CDs.

Like me, those people are not inclined to spend a heck of a lotta money to rediscover actual CD’s.

After spending 2 years exclusively LPs, I decided to try for a better sounding CD player. It can be done I found, now I don’t hesitate to enjoy my CDs as well as my LPs. To the point that I buy used LPs or used CDs now, expecting the CD to sound really good. Or not, content/engineering is always an issue.

So much technology is involved, either can sound superior, yet a few changes, the other could be superior, either ’preferred’ or ’better’.

Looking for help or someone to share their experience if you have already been down this road. I started to revamp my home theatre music set up and I joined the B&W group with a set of CM10 S2 towers and center. I then swapped out my two paradigm defiance subs since I was moving away from paradigm with two SVS PC 2000 Pro subs. I have also purchased some DS3 surrounds and I still have paradigm in the ceiling for the Atmos channels. Everything has been an improvement. However I also wanted to up the game and gain more convenience streaming music and loading my cd collection I went ahead and purchased a blue sound vault 2. I hooked it up to my Yamaha A8A with the optical pcm to bypass the dac in the blue sound since the dac in the Yamaha is rated much higher. After ripping a cd to the blue sound playing it back the volume is probably 25% less compared side by side to my Yamaha S1000 CD player playing the same song same time and switching back and forth. I then hooked up the blue sound RCA analog and the volume came up and added more bass low end. I then played the same song on my phone through air play to my Apple TV and that is the closest to the Yamaha cd player. I love the idea of ripping my cd’s into the blue sound but now with Apple Air Play lossless quality I can download all of my old cds so not sure which is the best way to play my music while avoiding Bluetooth for sure. I contacted Crutchfield and blue sound and Audio Advice and they all claim that different electronics will send different volume based on voltage they are set up at and although I would have to turn up the volume to match the Yamaha CD player I shouldn’t be losing any quality but the soundstage is definitely different. So now I called my local stereo speaker shop and they recommend the B&W formation streamer? Or perhaps the Cambridge streamer? What is the best avenue? How do I get my cds into my music library. The new I mac doesn’t have a CD player to load them? Thank you anyone that can assist much appreciated.

@mofojo save the pennies the project rs2 made me me sell my sacd player as the cds on that sounded better than same album on sacd. Made no sense... Now going i2s (HDMI) into rs2 dac which reclocks it to even better quality.

And I am buying second hand cds now at charity shops.... Yesterday 4 for £1.... That is value

why are the best sounding turntables belt drive and all cd players and transports direct drive....oh wait...I just purchased a belt drive cd transport. Slide the glass door back and it looks like a mini turntable. You see the belt itself....The sound you say....well you'll have to audition one to experience a totally new sensation. CEC TL5.

@ghdprentice 

Thanks. Yes… physically owning a disk… paying and storing these is on the way out. I have 2,000 vinyl albums and 2,000 CDs… takes up space and if you don’t steam, confines you to listen and re-listen repeatedly to the same thing… but for the price of one CD per month, you have access to millions of tunes.

Agree. Sold all my vinyl and almost all my CDs (I have about 50 hard-to-find, remasters, steelboxes, etc. left). The sale paid for years of streaming. Got rid of the racks to hold them too. So much less clutter. And my streaming can be totally voice controlled. Try that with a CD. And those millions of songs I now have access to are portable on something I always carry with me - my phone. No ripping required.

@ghdprentice Way back then, in my vinyl days, they said CD’s were the future...

A factor I left out the other day: the quality of the codec that's used to convert from the data stored on a CD or in a file to the stream that travels over the network or through the data path from the CD transport to a DAC.

Listening to an album is a different experience from listening to a service.

Most likely you have spent time researching the Album, Genre or the Artist. You have followed a path. It’s a journey.

Most of the (new) music I listen to is not part of mainstream music services. And now some of the old music too (see Neil Young, et.al. :-)

A streaming service is mostly used to chose a compilation of tracks based on your mood, activity, or whatever. It’s more like radio used to be.

I buy most of my music from Bandcamp, that also supplies a good quality rip (occasionally up to 24/96).

I play local files and only sometimes CDs. There is already too much big brother snooping going on.

I'm a solo manufacturer, so if I may - try listening to an SACD with this setup: HDMI out of a universal player to the GeerFab Audio D.BOB, which extracts the DSD64 (and PCM up to 24/192) and sends it to an external DAC via the DoP over Coax/Toslink protocol. Legally. The SACD world has been waiting 20 years for this. More reliable than streaming. Is there even a way to stream DSD? Download, yes, but streaming?

As ericgeer says: I can testify that an SACD with the GeerFab Audio D.BOB device sounds better than streaming or red book CD.

“Is there even a way to stream DSD? Download, yes, but streaming?”

@ericgeer

The major advantage with DSD downloads, once downloaded; one can ‘stream’ DSD file without the need of any additional hardware. The whole point of streaming is to eliminate a disc player.

As clever as it sounds, I am trying to understand the ‘need’ for a device like D.BOB for someone who already owns a SACD and Universal players. I would appreciate some clarification, thank you!

lalitk,

The D.BOB is a device which connects to your universal player or SACD player and uses it as a transport for your SACDs. It remarkably improves the sound which you get from the player alone.

I replaced my CD player of 15 years with a new DAC and CD transport last year.  Both units use vacuum tubes and the CD transport can upsample to DSD through either an I2s cable or 3 BNC cables going into the DAC.  I thought my old CD player sounded pretty good but this new system blew me away. I hear low level detail, imaging and a soundstage rivaling analog now.  Then I added a Roon based music server, ripped my CDs to FLAC files and got a Qobuz subscription.  After putting a FMC (optical) line in the ethernet path I find streaming equivalent to playing my CD FLAC files.  Downloaded DSD files still have an edge over CD and streaming.  They sound smoother and have the largest soundstage of all but it is not a great difference.

I have three sources- vinyl, CD and streaming.  I rarely use the CD Transport now.  If I had it to do over I might not have gotten the CD Transport but at the time I didn't know anything about music servers and streaming when I got the new DAC and transport.  Plus I still would have had to hear and compare a music server to the Transport for myself on my system to be satisfied.  Evenso, I prefer to keep the transport maybe because of nostalgia or just to be able to spin discs occasionally.  I am not even ready to give up vinyl but I don't play vinyl nearly as often these days.

Lol,

 I just bought an Audiolab 600cdt and I’m pleasantly surprised on how good it sounds.

I have been toying with the idea of getting a Node N130 and a Tidal or Amazon subscription.

JD

lalitk: By streaming, I was referring to a service like Qobuz or Tidal. There don't seem to be any services that stream DSD. As to downloads, SACDs are often less expensive than downloads and don't take up any hard drive space. I should note that downloads still require hardware.

I invented the D.BOB because the DACs in players are not as good as good as external DACs with independent power supplies. One only needs a reliable player, the D.BOB and an external DAC. When I went from the DAC inside an Oppo 105 to using it just as a transport, connected to the D.BOB and then to that first Mytek DAC (Stereo 192DSD), my world changed.

@ericgeer

Thanks for the clarification. It appears the D.BOB is designed for end users with universal transport players with subpar internal DAC’s.

That's right!

I was auditioning a Pathos Amp yesterday and we did an A vs B comparison playing the same track on a $1500 CD player vs $5K Rose streaming unit and Tidal service. No comparison.  So much more detail and realism on the CD. Source is everything.

Audiolab CDT 6000 was best, til I bought a Stack Link. Both through a Denafrips  Ares II.

I don't know if most people actually go through the rigour of matching db levels by an external mic to ensure proper comparison, and that’s just the first step. Then you have to ensure its the same exact mastering/release of the track/album you are comparing. IME, mastering differences are a lot bigger than bitrate, resolution and hardware. Basically, unsure if most people actually perform proper apples to apples comparisons.

Whenever I asked in many of the review threads here, I never got responses about tracks/albums used, or specific listening notes - rather just nebulous bass is tighter, soundstage is wider and treble is airier statements. People even refused to mention tracks used. Just the pricier the gear the better it is.

@nitewulf Agree mastering most important variable. By the way, what is your conclusion as to cd transport vs. streaming?

Bottom line for me is while I haven't listened with transport in a long time, I don't doubt cd playing has a rightful place in top flight sound reproduction. Streaming also has it's place up there as well, those who claim it doesn't need to hear optimized steaming setup.

@sns - I don't think there is much difference except if you like the physical experience of putting on a CD, similar to vinyl. Vinyl itself is a different issue because the sound is different and so on, but the experience itself is also enjoyable. CD vs Streaming, when you are using a certain class of equipment, I don't think there is a sound quality difference and of course you can't beat the sheer convenience of streaming, as well as the enrichment - if you use a service, you can curate playlists, mixes, get recommendations to new artists and tracks, create radio stations to your liking and there are almost an infinite number of music for you to explore, and so on.

Yes, streaming is a miracle of sorts.  Particularly to those who have needlessly amassed several thousand CDs and records.

this is an excellent thread... another just started thread about cd transports got me to come back to this one, lots of great discussion and info here

As I initiated in another post, my just bought Herbie’s Black Hole CD Mat has been a game changer.  With thus device CDs sound better than streaming on my system.

Suddenly CDs become more relevant to me.

@ nonoise:

You're Spot(ify) on!

@nitewulf 

Which is one reason I pay absolutely no attention to subjective reviews ... even for equipment where there could be audible differences.

No way would I ever go back to cd or vinyl after purchasing a very high end DAC (more than 5K), ethernet cabling, Roon Nucleus Plus, switch, etc. Streaming from Tidal, Qobuz and Files sounds so wonderful through my rig that I no longer have the desire to play cd anymore.  I'm enjoying the combination of convenience and the amazing sound quality of streaming so much so that I had to ask myself, where have you been all my life????!!!

After starting this thread several months ago, I concur with kennymacc above that streaming sounds so good and is so convenient that I find myself doing that much more than anything else. I still think CDs sound about identical, and that has to do more with the quality of the DAC than anything else.

I know some of the clowns above (and jokers) are able to HEAR, but how many of them actually know how to LISTEN?  The speakers are ALWAYS the most critical component that affects one's perception of sonic characteristics.  And when I hear nonsense where one ranks speakers as number 3 or 4 in the hierarchy of components which are most important, that's when I know I'm dealing with uninformed loud-mouth amateurs.