Cartridge Advice Please

i support the idea of koetsu black or higher benz and also, don't rule out a better dynavector... they are superb...

Audio Technica ART9 fan here.

Also have heard the Rega P10 Apheta setup, which I liked. Your setup unquestionably is up to the task to make any table/cart sound great.

If I had a P10 and was looking for a change, I'd try the recent addition to the ART series-ART20. It's between the ART9 and the TOTL ART1000.

I don't know if I'd ever consider the ART1000 for a P10, since there isn't true adjustability which it deserves.

This review uses a P10 with the ART20

Audio Technica AT-ART20 | The Ear (the-ear.net)

If you can listen to a MY Sonic Lab Signature Gold or the Hyper Eminent EX

https://www.suncoastaudio.com/collections/my-sonic-lab/products/my-sonic-lab-signature-gold

A higher level Benz is also a good option

@dhite71 , None of the above. What you want is a My Sonic Lab cartridge, whichever one fits your budget. They all have similar motors and they all are low impedance higher output MC cartridges around 0.56 mv is typical. They are beautifully constructed and will mate perfectly with your arm. The better Ortofons are very low output. The Koetsus are low output and too stiff for your arm. You would have to add a lot of mass. The Lyra cartridges would work fine but as a AR person my suspicion would be that you would prefer the MSLs. 

I prize my system’s imaging. Vinyl: it cannot do it’s best unless the cartridge gives both WIDE channel separation, and TIGHT center channel balance.

Tight center balance is not just for ’centered singer’, but it improves the location of any off-center instrument as well. Most ’Stereo’ is Phantom, and the tighter the signal, the better curtain of presentation.

Next: an advanced stylus. Surprisingly, many name brand/popular cartridges come with Elliptical stylus. Not for me, and you will find the cartridges with both wide and tight are advanced stylus, better contact with the grooves.

Cantilever: stiffer is better, increase stiffness, easier to break it. I won’t go stiffer than Boron.

If you would like to hear what's on your LP'S, then go for any medium to high end EMT carts. 

I really like the Benz Wood SM for the money. Going up the Benz line, however, can be tricky. When they swap over to ruby plates (Ruby, Gullwing, LPS), the electrical characteristic changes a lot (much high coil impedance for each output level). I’m a SUT guy so I don’t really dig the ruby LPS (doesn’t match well to SUT)...or maybe it’s also that I just prefer the warm, lush, robust "color" of the wood bodied iron-cross models. Your Ref 2SE is about ideal for the ruby models (I had a Ref 3SE), but as you noticed, noise will creep in as you go below 0.4mV. So you could try the high output ruby or LPS, but they’re carrying an AWFUL lot of coil at that point. As for the higher Benz iron-cross models - I find Zebrawood L and Ebony L to be a bit more refined than Wood SM, but perhaps not significantly so. I think you’d be looking for a bigger change than that.

I think Koetsu is a good choice if you have arm to support it. I’m not sure about the Rega arm - haven’t tried that combo. On paper, it’s too light. But on a good arm match, the Koetsus have even more of that warmth, body, and vivid midrange which I like the Benz Wood for. With more refinement to boot. The potential downside is Koetsu’s treble is more relaxed then Benz, so if the rest of your system is dark that may be too much. Koetsu’s output ratings are good, so the 0.4mV model won’t give you trouble like the SS did. Even the 0.3mV Koetsu models (Platinum magnets) have enough output to work very well with ARC Ref.

Don’t do an Ortofon, you will miss the sweetness in midrange Benz and Koestu give you (based on A90 and Windfeld Ti). The Wood SM is already better than Cadenza Bronze so you’d have to look above that, which is where they get sterile in the midrange (for me). I haven’t tried Lyra, but they have a rep of being on the brighter side.

It might be a "none of the above" scenario, as @mijostyn suggested. I've heard only good things about the MSL cartridges, so far. 

@mulveling , I would not say on the brighter side. I would say on the leaner side. It is hard to believe anyone would not like MSL cartridges. They are so easy to get along with with their higher output and great tracking ability. They are a warmer sound than the Lyras but the differences are really quite minor.

I read this thread simply out of interest in cartridge choices. I have made few in the last 30 years… and am really happy with my Koetsu Rosewood Signature. Then I noticed the phono stage… a 2SE?

Wow. My first phonostage was an Audio Research PH2… which I upgraded to a 2SE, then 3, then 3SE… but none of these was worth anything compared with the PH8. To me the PH8 finally got out of the way. Such an incredible phono stage. Since then I have had a REF 3 and REF3SE… both better… but if you want to compare cartridges, you first have to get that ancient phono stage out of the way. It may have been groundbreaking in the 1980’s but it is solid state, sterile… primitive phono stage by the standards of the rest of your system.

Before you change cartridges, get a Audio Research PH8 or better.

Maybe look at Aidas (which I own and love). Not well known but a beautiful, bespoke instrument IMHO, warm, detailed, great bass. 0.4mv output. My GN PS is set to 62dB gain, 65 was tad too much.

I’ve got a poor man’s denon dl 103 (not my sole cartridge) and I just love it. I've read Fremer's review of the LVB 2m black. I think I'll be grabbing one soon, at least the stylus thereof, as I can swap out the ortofon Bronze.

@ ghdprentice

Ref Phono 2SE is NOT Solid State.

With your Sussuro, what load resistance did you use? That (MI) cartridge has a 10 ohm internal R but high inductance compared to any MC. Thus the typical MC load of 100 ohms is too low. That cartridge likes 400-500 ohms minimum. And it’s not meant for any SUT. Just wondered whether you considered those factors before moving on from it.

On my all tube ARC system, I really 

like the Lyra Delos.

If a 0.4mv cart is causing you to have issues with hum, I suggest you have other more pressing issues.  I have three carts currently in use, two Sound Smiths and a Hana, all 0.4mv and all dead silent through my ARC SP-14.  I use Parasound JC3+ phono amps and attribute the silence largely to them.  Using a higher output cart to minimize hum is only a bandaid.  Where the problem lies in your system, cables, pre amp or phono pre amp is something you need to determine, but the cart is not the problem.

@jjss49  - Thanks, will do some research on dynavector

@tablejockey - Good idea to keep AT in mind.  I see lots of positive things and big fans of their high end cartridges.  That ART-20 does seem like a good candidate to keep an eye out for a dealj

@jperry - I failed to share my budget but that would definitely be above : )    I am hoping to stay around $2000-$3000.  I was not familiar and read a nice review fro the absolute sound where it was compared to Koetsu.  Also learned of the connection between the two companies so will definitely pay more attention to this brand....thanks!

@mijostyn - noted from above...definitely on my radar now...thanks

@danmar123 - not familiar but I will do some research...thanks

@mulveling - you bring up points regarding the Benz line that I am unaware and you may be right that I am looking for more of a change.  Koetsu Rosewood Signature is definitely one that gets my attention.  I really wasn't sure what to expect from Ortofon.  One of my friends has had many over the years and the Lyra Helikon is his favorite but a bright presentation is definitely not what I am after.  Another nod to MSL...that seems to be the theme here..thanks

@ghdprentice - you must have thought my '2SE' meant the older PH2.  No, I said the full REF lineup, just didn't type REF for each piece : )

@macg19 - I haven't heard of Aidas but will do some research, thanks

@audioguy85 - I love my Kiseki but can't tame the beast to stop lol...hope you like the Ortofon

@lewm - I went all through the load settings and didn't help matters;  I talked to Peter on the phone.  He came across a bit arrogant as he would NOT fathom the possibility there was a problem with his beloved cartridge..it had to be me or my system.  The fact that several other cartridges all played as expected based on their output and his cartridge was the outlier was left as my problem.  I bought it from a dealer with a warranty and he said there was no need to return it to be assessed.  I also talked to him before buying and his attitude was much different so I lost a lot of respect for him in that experience, sold it and moved on.  I would still use them for a re-tip but would not purchase another SS cartridge.

@hotei - I will try a Lyra some day....still looking for the right deal : )  thanks

@jdougs - Not simply saying a 0.4mV cart causes noise, this was isolated to the SS cart

Given your price range I think your best choice would be a Lyra Delos. The least expensive cartridge MSL makes is the Eminent EX and it retails for $4000. If you get it from a site with a trade in program you might be able to get that down $500.

You hardly ever see MSL cartridges used. I would not hold out for that. 

I have ART1000, Ortofons Verismo and Anna, amongst others, mounted on Simon Yorke S10.

All are very truthful and have wonderful tonality.  The Anna has a little more authority and dynamics, if you like that, but you need a hi-mass arm to balance out its weight, rather than my Aeroarm.  It is mounted on my SY Zarathustra with Zeta..  Verismo lies between the other two and is my main go-to.

If you want a little more life (not Koetsu life, but more dynamics) then try hi-end van den Huls, of which I have three.

dhite71 If interested, talk to Erik @ Solypsa. He is the US distributor for Aidas - they start at around $4K so maybe a bit more than your budget though. (I went from a Hana ML to Aidas so a big jump in $$$$) - fully detailed in my virtual system.

Erik is very knowledgeable and sets up carts (any brand the customer chooses not just the ones he sells) as part of his services  - he can probably articulate the differences of many of your options - and he is not a pushy sales guy.

@mijostyn - Just checked hifishark and an Eminent EX sold 3 weeks ago in 2 days for $2500!  Just a little late on my inquiry, but will definitely be watching for the next one.  

This Ikeda 9TS cartridge is in your budget. I have a different Ikeda, but this might be good cartridge for you. A softer sound like the Benz, or Gold MSL cartridges.

I see them sold at a discount from Japan. Direct from Japan the 9TT would also be inside your budget, however the output is low at .16mv

http://www.aaudioimports.com/ShowProduct.asp?hProduct=253

OP, @aewarren Yes, when I saw 2SE… I assumed PH2SE.

IF you have yet to do so, before moving to another flavor of cart, get serious  ( HRS grade ) isolation under both the REF2 / 5 ( i run them both ). Also the both will benefit from NOS GE or Tungsol black plates in the power supply.

If you do go the Delos route, put some weight on. I believe you will find J Carr supportive of that, although i am no P10 expert. I also have a Delos.

Finally…. another vote for VdH or Dynavector….

Best in music !

Jim

@tomic601 - I have seen immediate improvements from better isolation for my turntable and subwoofers but have not tried anything under the components.  You may be on to something here as I know I am currently running a fabulous cartridge so maybe I need to take a step back and try something different for the next evolution of my system.  Appreciate the idea.

I had a Benz LPS and now use an Ortofon Windfield.....like them both, ... 

@dhite71 not to discourage you but using a non-Rega cartridges on a Rega table you can’t really predict the cartridge performance due to lack of VTA adjustment. Unless…the replacement cartridge is exactly the same height as a Rega cartridge or you can dial the VTA using either the Rega shims/spacers or thicker or thinner matt. Otherwise the P10 is a great table.
I would give the folks at Upscale Audio (Kat in particular) a call to get their thoughts on what cartridges work on this table and go from there. When I had Rega they recommended Hana as the cartridge closest in height to the original.

I could be overthinking it so take this free advice for what it’s worth…

@dhite71 You have stated, 

"I failed to share my budget but that would definitely be above : ) I am hoping to stay around $2000-$3000. 

There are Cart's being recommended that will retail at a substantial increase over this, especially the MSL Gold or Platinum.

I am a Ortofon user and have been demonstrated a variety of their models, some are noticeably Rich in Tone (Not my Thing), others can grow toward a lean presentation (more to my taste, but not overly transparent). Most Cart's from this Brand have been able to embed a very good impressions. 

I am hoping over the next year to be able to experience demonstrations of a few Companies Flagship Models inclusive of Ortofon's latest design.

The Ortofon Verismo and the MSL Platinum are of interest.

I have the offer to experience the Verismo in a home system and am yet to make a date.

The place for a Platinum to be demonstrated is yet to be found, I am at present assuming a HiFi Event will be the location.

When these are achieved, I will have one more demonstration to seek out, which is the Mutech Hayabusa. I have followed the reports of a user of the some of the Cart's recommended above, and it has been discovered, that the Hayabusa is claimed to be almost on par in overall performance with a MSL Platinum, and seriously worth considering as a alternative choice.     

The Hayabusa falls in purchase value and can be found closer to your made known Budget. The Budget might need an increase by a $1000ish, but the Cart's performance for this money, if the reports are to be believed (which I do believe) suggests another $5000-$6000 increase in budget is required to acquire the Platinum and not have a much improved performance. 

Looking into the Hayabusa as an option will only increase your awareness of what options are available to you.    

@audphile1 - you do bring up a good point that I have recognized and worked with in the past.  I don't recall how the actual dimensions compared when I had the Aphelion 2 but I did buy the spacer set and adjusted the arm from the base.  I did not hear any differences with my previous Benz or the current Kiseki.  I know many hear major changes in sound while adjusting the VTA so not sure if mine was already close enough to be good or if this is something too subtle for me to hear.  Looking at my table now the arm is almost perfectly parallel to the record.  The cartridge may be up 1 or 2 deg from the base. 

@pindac - My limited experiences with demos has left me disappointed.  When you are auditioning these cartridges at a dealer do they have a setup with a headshell where they are allowing you to hear a known cartridge which you are currently use or know well and then swapping out the contender(s)?  I have no dealers near me so my experiences are limited to business trips and trying to coordinate an hour or two in to go visit someone....I don't have a rapport with anyone.  I will focus on the used market and often times as the retail climbs the expected resale value percentage drops so hoping $3000 will present opportunities for a $6000-$8000 cartridge.  I was not familiar with Hayabusa so will read up on that brand...thanks!

@dhite71 good to know you have the shims. When you get a new cartridge I highly recommend Dr. Feichert latest gen protractor if you don’t yet have all the tools to set this up, unless you’re planning on having a dealer set it up for you. With Rega carts you get the Overhang and VTA right without much effort (three headshell screws, preset VTA). This isn’t the case with a non-Rega carts.
You have a nice system, get as close as possible with whatever cartridge you get. It’s worth the investment of time and effort.

@dhite71 I'm happy to have introduced you to the Hayabusa.

The link will introduce you to some of the reports to be found on it and other Cart's that may fall within your budget.

 https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/comparison-of-some-cartridges-in-the-4k-region-soundsmith-the-voice-ikeda-9-tt-ortofon-windfeld-ti-air-tight-pc1.28733/

@dhite71 The Link is one I have read for the first time.

The content will help one to better understand the Design Intent and Materials used for some of the Cart's that are being suggested.

There is also very good descriptions of how Cart's compare from the same stable. There should be enough being discussed, to help with assisting your producing a used MC Cart' Shortlist.  

This individual is one of a very few, who I have followed for quite some time. There experiences attained through using a vast selection of Vinyl Replay Devices is way beyond that of many enthusiasts. It is off interest that I have now learned they have now began to adopt PC Triple C Wire in the Signal Path for the Cart'.

I have been a advocate of PC Triple C Wire used in the Cart's Signal Path for a few years now. This started as Ortofon Tag Wires, which from recollection really impressed and has over time expended to using it as a Signal Wire in Interconnects, Speaker Cables and now it is also being used as a Wire in Power Cables.

I have also been Instrumental in encouraging others to use it, which has resulted in the extended usage, where the Wire is now being used as Wand Wire from Cart' Tags through to RCA Connectors, Internal Hook Up wire on a Phonostage and Internal Cabinet Wire in a Speaker.

At present SAEC is the only Company using the PC Tri[le C wire as a Wand Wire on a Tonearm costing appox' £13000  

My wish is for the Wire to be found in a Cart' Coil and Lead Out Pins, hopefully AT might do this, as they did with OCC Wire.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/my-personal-journey-to-my-sonic-lab.30722/

@clearthinker , I have the MC Diamond, the politically correct Anna. It is a very heavy cartridge and huge in comparison to other cartridges. I use it in a Schroder CB with the brass mounting plate and I get a resonance frequency in the 7-8 Hz range. So, it does not need a massive arm. Any of the intermediate mass arms will do.

@mijostyn    OK.  I don't do politically correct, running Krell KRS200s.  Anyway, how can Anna Netrebko, or Ortofon for that matter, be responsible for Putin invading Ukraine, any more than I am responsible for the British slave trade.  And why can we say 'black swan' but not 'blackboard'.  People do talk the most errant nonsense.

The Anna works fine in my Zeta, possibly heavyweight, arm.  I accept it may work well in somewhat lower mass arms although 7Hz is a tad less than ideal.  But my SY Aeroarm is definitely a non-starter:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=simon+yorke+aeroarm&sxsrf=APwXEdfhJCjY3yLdREVHEICpb6OjtmvL9A:1680962753160&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj3lKGeupr-AhXREsAKHab4A0gQ_AUoAnoECAEQBA&biw=1280&bih=912&dpr=1#imgrc=sgWyv7XixpxyxM 

@dhite71 The Link is Part II of the first Link I added.

It covers a few Cart's recommended above and extends to comparing/discussing the Benz LPS.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/comparison-of-some-cartridges-in-the-4k-segment-mkii-etsuro-hana-benz-allnic-kiseki-phasemation.32994/

@clearthinker I'm with you.

No, if you have a well isolated turntable 7 Hz is not too low. Bass performance is improved, noticeably if you use propper subwoofers.  

dhite, I am surprised you got rebuffed by both Peter Ledermann and your dealer who sold you the Sussuro. The former is perhaps excusable if PL was just having a bad day. The latter is inexcusable, because it constitutes poor customer service. SS did a re-tip for me several years ago, and the results were not good. I reported my dissatisfaction to Peter, in the context of a phone call, and while it may have required two or three contacts, he did finally ask me to return it for his personal inspection. In the event, he did find a fault with the work done in his shop, fixed it, and sent it back with no charge and a sort of apology. I cannot imagine why he would not offered at the very least to have you return the cartridge for his inspection. Perhaps he is overwhelmed with the work these days. May I ask what resistive load you did use with the Sussuro? Thanks.

@lewm - I know we have to take online commentary with a chunk of salt but I have been in sales for all of my life and pride myself on empathy and being open-minded.  As I mentioned it was very disappointing how responsive and helpful the SS group and Peter were when I was considering their cartridge and then how it was when I had a problem.  I can't remember the dealer's policy as it was online and had never dealt with them before but I know I couldn't just return it as it was beyond that point.  I made it out with minimal loss so was happy to just walk away from the deal and have no further curiosity of SS cartridges.  I used all the load settings offered by my 2SE:  47K, 1000, 500, 200, 100, 50 ohms.  The recommended is >/= 470 so 500 was the optimal choice.  It did sound the best and loudest there, but again, where I can listen to my Kiseki with 0.48mV output at a loud volume at 50 on most records, I was at 70+ on the SS with 0.40mV.  My Benz is the medium output at 0.8mV and there was not much difference between it and the Kiseki, maybe a few volume points, which tells me the difference between the Kiseki and the SS should have been barely noticeable.  I believe in SS and Peter's passion and skills but simply had a very bad experience.

Hi,

I used and loved the Benz Wood too, then I changed my TT from Michell to Avid (I remain in the UK shop) keeping my SME V tonearm.

My new cartridge is Benz LP and is great. If you have an arm that doesn't support heavy cartridges, I suggest you LP and not LPS, because this is almost heavier twice than LP without improvements.

@dhite71 , that is an unfortunate experience you had with PL. I had a high output Voice and after about 50 hours it started mistracking. Inspection showed the stylus was pointed in an odd direction. The cantilever had twisted in it's fitting! I took a picture and emailed it to SS. Peter messaged me and just said, "call" and the number, which I did. He told me to send him the cartridge and to label the box, "For Peter's desk only." I had a brand new cartridge 4 days later. So, Peter must have had a bad day or somehow you rubbed him the wrong way, whatever. The Voice is a high output version of the Sussurro and in most systems a much better cartridge and you would have had no problems with output. 

If you want to improve the performance of your system you have to move up the chain. I think the MSL does that nicely. Be patient and save up, that advice coming from an immediate gratification freak, but there you are. 

I have the Ortofon Cadenza Black on my VPI HW40 and love the results. I bought another Cadenza Black as a backup.

IF you are tempted by a expensive cartridge, you can find one with a broken cantilever, send to Steve at VAS, have him put new cantilever/stylus.

https://vasnyinc.com/

Ask his advice before buying, there are models he tells you to avoid.

As advised by @elliottbnewcombjr ​​​​​​

The idea and practice of having a Donor Cart' rebuilt is one I am a advocate of. It will be seen in other threads where I make known my experiences of this. 

I will say that, not Al Donor Cart's are able to be rebuilt to a Spec' that resembles the original model and some are not going to be rebuilt.

It does depend on the Service Selected and the evaluation of the Technician. 

This will not suit all, but it is my arrangement I make. 

I buy a Donor Cart', as model to undergo a Inspection and Assessment only. I don't kid myself I am buying a rebuild able Cart'. 

Following the Assessment being a positive outcome, I let the Third Party Service know I am not holding them accountable, if the rebuild has a failing and the Cart' is lost. I accept the outcome whatever it is.

The only thing I ask, is that if parts have been purchased and are being charged for, if these are salvageable, I ask these are stored for a future attempt, when another Donor is available.

Obviously not everhbodies ideal, but to date this has worked out fine, and a Third Party Service does feel better for it, as they can't guarantee 100% success on all attempts to rebuild. 

Hana Umami Blue MC Cartridge 0.4mV at $2,499.99 looks promising.  Likely a sonic bargain.

Ortofon Cadenza Bronze a solid choice - often used in audio show demos.    

I have a rega rb2000 (similar to the rb3000) and I have the two cartridges Kennyc noted on my short list.  Also intrigued by the new AT art 20.

@russellrcncom Are you using this as the stock arm on an RP10 or modified a non-Rega turntable?  Don't suppose it matters....right?  Just curious

I should have included Rega RB3000 in the title as many have commented on choices on other brand arms.  I have been reading a little about compliance and using formulas to consider cartridges.  Do you know if there any clear red flags or stats that would be a hard elimination for a cartridge?

What are you listening to now on the RB2000?

Currently I’m using a Grado Reference on the rb2000.  The rb2000 is mounted to a SOTA star table.  Honestly, I don’t think you can go wrong with either of the three cartridges mentioned above.  It’s just a matter of synergy.

@dhite71 I have an ARC Reference Phono and love the way the Benz cartridges sound through it on my Oracle Delphi mkV/SME V combo. Also have played some Ortofons through it as well and they have a sense of "rightness" about them that while different, is still appealing. I will say that Sound Smith disappointed me as well with their customer service on the cartridge repair front. If you have the need for repair or re-tipping, check out Steve and Ray Leung’s service, Vinyl Audio Science. Wasn’t afraid of a Beryllium cantilever, unlike SS. Turnaround time was about a week. I can’t recommend them highly enough!

@mytthor appreciate the referral of Steve and Ray for service.  I had read somewhere of others having a good experience with them.  

A near mint Lyra Kleos came up for sale on USAM yesterday at a great price so I bought that.  Lyra has been a brand I have wanted to hear for a while so am very excited to try this one out!  I will update after I have spent some time with it.  Thanks again for all the input.

The Kleos offered a very nice and detailed presentation but was a bit too 'in my face' and a bit bright compared to my Purple Heart.    

Making such suggestions as follows will undoubtedly not be received by all as the best advice when reviewing the latter of the two suggestions.

If the option is available to swap out Cart' Tag Wires, I would suggest a PC Triple C Tag Wire, I have found this wire has a very impressive impact used in the Cart's signal path. It is very affordable to purchase this wire as a Tag Wire, and will also be good to have at hand when/if another Cart' is tried.

Acoustic Revive are using the same Copper in their PC Triple C/EX Tag Wires and are asking for a $1000, the without /EX, Copper Only PC Triple C Tag Wires are much less monies acquire.  

If a SUT is at hand and is compatible with the Kleos, it might be worthwhile giving it a try, I feel confident a Richness will be detected as a result of the inclusion. Whether this is enough to rein the Cart' in enough to present with a sonic, that fits in with your preferences will be the unknown.

I have options on how a Cart's signal is amplified and there are SUT's and a Head Amp available to work in conjunction with owned Phonostages. I'm yet to feel I have sold a Cart' short by creating permutations through adding other devices to manage the the Cart's produced Signal.