Cardas vs Cardas vs Shunyata interconnects

    The problem with naysayers (ie: classiccrock) isn't that they're ignorant.

                     It's how they, "know" so much, that's incorrect.

     I have one word, to express my personal view as regards the Church of Denyin'tology and it's obfuscating, classically (possibly: willfully) obtuse adherents:

                                     floccinaucinihilipilification

                                            Happy listening!

......you can definitely find outstanding interconnects that outperform those overpriced interconnects from resellers.

How hard is it for @classicrockfan to understand if this were true we all would be doing it. 

Oh and I write posts on this forum not for elon musk but for audio enthusiasts....

A real audio enthusiast (audiophile) actually listens to components and makes up their own mind, and will not be brainwashed into deciding there is no sonic difference by people who claim there are "tests" that can tell us how they sound, because these tests do not exist. 

But please, feel free to keep on babbling, as it has no effect on all the intelligent people in this forum. 

How do you write about something you’ve never tested before? Again, it’s all just a bunch of babble until you test it and evaluate it yourself. compared them on a good system, it’s the only way to know. I have for too long. Ah, and defaulting to ASR tests aint gonna cut it for most here. Ask NASA why they chose to use Analysis Plus cables instead of Mogami or WBC on some of their design projects.

Enjoy your World’s Best Cables, it’s great that you found something that works well for you and that’s all that matters!

Years ago I tested a few stupidly expensive audio cables from cable terminators/resellers like yourself as I expected didn’t notice any audio difference (between my 300/pr vs their 3000/pr) Oh and my preamp/amp (a pair of old krells I rebuilt myself using the best possible components) are probably some of the best in the world if not the best. So you have issues with ASR or just don’t like measurements but you should know science and its engineering applications are strictly based on measurements, too much for a repair man. Why don’t you let ASR test/review your cables based on engineering principles, that is a million times more reliable than influencers subjective ears. As for the NASA guy he didn’t do enough research nor spent his own money. FYI I don’t have any WBC cables. I still happily use audio cables I bought years ago from a reseller in CO because there wasn’t any reliable online platform to buy audio cables at that time. These days you just have to do your own research browsing Amazon to find quality audio cables like WBC and so many other great cables for less than $100. If I get to buy new audio cables I will definitely get the 7awg WBC speaker cables and other nice cables off amazon. Then again I do not believe the WBC cables or your $10k/pair cables would make a difference because it’s the bad cables that make a difference. So people don’t get fooled and waste money on cables.

@classicrockfan "I write posts on this forum not for elon musk but for audio enthusiasts who live on a budget more than 90% of us."

How do you write about something you've never tested before? 

Again, it's all just a bunch of babble until you test it and evaluate it yourself.  No problem here with WBC or Mogami cables, a solid value for the $. When you've actually demoed, tested, and compared them on a good system, it's the only way to know. I have for too long.  Ah, and defaulting to ASR tests aint gonna cut it for most here. Ask NASA why they chose to use Analysis Plus cables instead of Mogami or WBC on some of their design projects.

Enjoy your World's Best Cables, it's great that you found something that works well for you and that's all that matters!  

Assembly Plant tours available. Or you can call them, ask, and validate first hand the copper mining operation deal he made to source and produce his own fine Grade1 Copper.

When you actually demo more than a few different pairs of Cardas cables report back what you hear. Until then, it’s all just a bunch of pointless babble.

Assembly plant? Stop misleading audio enthusiasts you better call yourself "Home of Cable Termination" when you don't have own cable manufacturing facility. I suggest you acquire that manufacturer in California. I'm an EE focused on avionics systems and we use quite expensive cables that we get from couple of different manufacturers (NOT terminators/resellers) their VOP approaches 90% thanks to use of the highest quality copper in the world mined in Canada and use of foam teflon dielectric because the ns/ft value when dt=l/(CxVOP) is extremely important in determining the overall performance of the system. BUT as for home audio applications a nano second delay wouldnt affect the sound quality at all when mostly using cables 100ft in length or less our ears/brains can't possibly tell any difference. A total waste of money. Remember this rule "bad cables make a difference" You do your own research on this subject especially on the AES audio engineering society, ASR audio science review, MIT massachusetts institute of technoloty. They all have come to the same conclusion that you shoudln't waste money on ridiculously expensive cables. Yes I do agree on that cables do make a difference but that's between cheap poorly made cables and well made cables. For example you can buy excellent speaker cables such as this 7awg WBC (world best cable mogami) on Amazon for 175 and top performing hq conductor/double shielding interconnects/data cables less than 50 and 'thick andbeautiful' 10awg power cables less than 40 (will make you feel good). I wouldn't spend time/money to fly to oregon to tour the cable termination place nor buy/return astronomically expensive cables since I already know 1+1=2 and always will be 2. I have a suggestion for you. Why don't you buy and actually demo this 7awg WBC speaker cable off amazon compared with your 10000/pair cables and REPORT BACK what you hear. Oh and I write posts on this forum not for elon musk but for audio enthusiasts who live on a budget more than 90% of us.

To @classicrockfan - as they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink. The guy was a telco engineer specializing in transmitting audio over cable. He employées family and locals and they do a fantastic job. Assembly Plant tours available. Or you can call them, ask, and validate first hand the copper mining operation deal he made to source and produce his own fine Grade1 Copper.

When you actually demo more than a few different pairs of Cardas cables report back what you hear. Until then, it’s all just a bunch of pointless babble.

Cardas Copper:

https://www.cardas.com/cardas-copper

The Story of Cardas Copper, by George Cardas.

https://www.cardas.com/about-cardas

Quote;

​

• "I was forced into the copper business, when a combination of recycling laws and new "improved" drawing techniques, flooded the market with cheap low grade copper. This began to force traditional plants out of business. I found an "old fashioned" plant that was closing and we began slow drawing and annealing pure copper rod in inert atmospheres. Soon we were supplying most of the specialty drawn high purity metals used in high-end audio.

• "He also found the last copper producer in the US who could make ultra-pure, fine copper wire to his specifications. They were on the verge of closing their doors, but George made a deal with them - keep going, and I’ll keep ordering copper. The copper they produced with George’s method is the purest, highest quality copper wire available".

@ decooney

@ akg_ca

Thanks for the link. So the video confirms they are not a copper mining company nor a copper wire producer BUT they are in the business of terminating cables aka a cable reseller. I'm surprised that out of 15 employees only one person has some related background (as a repair technician). I don't think anyone really understands cable/wire electronics based on 2nd order differential equations. Oh I thought they would buy bulk cables from this big cable manufacturer in southern California named Belden. You now know what's really going on so don't be a fool, paying 10x, 20x more for cables from a reseller/terminator.

@w123ale    I just moved up from Eclipse 8 to Gold Eclipse 8 and it was a nice improvment in detail, transparency and dynamics.

I've been using Cardas cables for over 30 Years and I like them, On different systems different lines work better. Also, they take a long time to burn in and settle in to sound their best. I don't like disconnecting them and handling them because then it takes a little time for them to sound right again. 

@akg_ca 

+1

There’s an intuitive simple reason why most of equipment and speaker exhibitors at the audio expos select either NORDOST and CARDAS for all their cable requirements.

it’s invariably either NORDOST VALHALLA / ODIN (Ag over Cu) or alternatively, CARDAS CLEAR / CLEAR BEYOND (all Cu) ; as best of breed choice, depending on the bespoke tailored system synergy required to best showcase their gear optimum audio performance.

@fthompson251 
 

Definitely only mid-level WW. Eclipse I think 

@decooney  and @akg_ca 

++1

Cardas is an upstanding company, full stop

@decooney 

+1

@classicrockfan 

here ya go ….

@w123ale Just for my personal reference because I am very familiar with Wireworld cabling, what level of WW cables did you replace? Interconnects and speaker? Thank you.

@sdl4 "I’m impressed that you took the time and effort to figure that out. I hope that you continue to enjoy the naturalness and tonal richness that Cardas cables can provide."

Agree and it takes patience testing and evaluating the lineup of different cables. Those who make generalized comments are not familiar with the different cables and typically won’t invest or take the time to understand it more.

@classicrockfan "Of course not because they don’t have that facility. in reality they buy bulk cables from an actual cable manufacturer in southern California all they do are cut/terminate/package/add big big profit/resell."

The copper is owned, mined, and sourced by Cardas for manufacturing through their own operation agreement they redeveloped and supported. Yes, there are videos showing the sub-contracted process of manufacturing the cable spools made in SoCal. Spools shipped to Bandon Oregon, cut and terminated there by hand. It’s a business that manages to remain profitable and stay in business 35+ years and employs workers. Anyone who has visited the facility in person is aware of this. Nobody is being fooled.

@w123ale

@ghdprentice

read up on Cardas. Made in the USA

Actually you didn’t read up correctly. Did you find any line or photo on their website or else where explaining how they actually manufacture cables such as wire drawing annealing twisting stranding extrusion along with machineries being used? Of course not because they don’t have that facility. in reality they buy bulk cables from an actual cable manufacturer in southern California all they do are cut/terminate/package/add big big profit/resell. Yes made in USA but not by themselves. so don’t get fooled.

@w123ale 

+1

@classicrockfan  please read up on Cardas. Made in the USA and they have a US based source for the copper.

@w123ale 

those cable resellers have one thing in common they do not manufacture their own cables so they buy or import cables and oil them up with thick extra jackets and plugs and add 10x or more profit to resell. buy from manufacturers such as mogami aka wbc, canere, belden, chinese brands skw audiocrast etc.. that you find on amazon. read the descriptions/specs/diagrams/reviews and you can definitely find outstanding interconnects that outperform those overpriced interconnects from resellers.

@w123ale  I'm glad the Cardas Cygnus cables have worked out well for you. Consistent with the comments from @decooney earlier in this thread, Clear Reflection interconnects and speaker cables have been solid in my system. Blanket comments about Cardas being too soft and closed in ignore the fact that Cardas has a range of cables that vary in their relative balance of detail versus richness. 

In my search for cables that have synergy with my other gear, I have tried cables (across several brands) that have that emphasized high frequency and upper midrange detail at the expense of losing richness and realistic tonality. As my streaming system has become more transparent and as I continue to use revealing Thiel speakers with metal-dome tweeters, I have needed cables that don't overemphasize upper frequency detail to the point of unnaturalness and brightness.

Clear Reflection has been a great match for my gear and my ears. It sounds like Cygnus is a great match for your system, and I'm impressed that you took the time and effort to figure that out. I hope that you continue to enjoy the naturalness and tonal richness that Cardas cables can provide. 

I had Cardas too....too closed in and warm for me

@jmeyers  yup definitely happy with the Cygnus. In fact I got speaker cables as well. I replaced Wire World cables, with the Cardas and finally my system settled to where I wanted it. Now, with the speaker cables, I have to say that they sounded closed and woolly at first, and I was not happy. But after 100 hrs or so they opened up and are fantastic. Now I have actually started a thread about if burn in is BS and just perception, or real. In this instance, burn is felt real to me. 
 

Of note, back to my original comparison, the Reflection were not open enough for me, but I feel Clear might be too much. The Cygnus seem to be the sweet spot for my system.

I had a whole loom of Cardas.....got rid of them....too woolly and soft

@jmeyers looking at your virtual system my guess is that your Mac amps lean to the brighter side of the spectrum and your new Bricasti gear (stuff that dreams are made of) are neutral so silver cables are a mismatch. Just my 3 cents worth.

Agreed. Silver not a good combo. Nordost Tyr 2 XLRs sound great in my system and were awesome when I had Bricasti M3. I would recommend giving these cables a try. There are some available on USAM

@audphile1 Yes, it is. Currently, I have a special version (all silver) of Kimber Kable's Silver Streak interconnect (which they custom-made for me), including WBT114AG connectors. I suspect that, with the clarity of the Bricasti M21 DAC, the Silver Streak may be de0-emphasizing the lower-mid and upper bass and enhancing the upper-mid and highs -- resulting in a sound which sometimes enters into the realm of "clinical". There is no question I hear everything recorded but am often missing the music's richness in the process.

@jmeyers is that the system with M21 DAC?

@w123ale It is now almost one year later. Have you kept the Cygnus cables between your DAC and preamp? (My digital sub-system has become so clear and detailed that is now “too much of a good thing”.) Currently, I use an all-silver interconnect cable between my DAC and preamp and am thinking that the Cygnus might add a little warmth — which is needed. 

So, I got one set of Cygnus interconnects for my DAC to pre and using my borrowed Cygnus set from pre to monos. Holy hell—truly extraordinary. In my system these Cardas cables are like changing a major component like a DAC. Extraordinary sound stage width and height and separation between instruments. What I find most engaging is a feeling of physical texture to the music like I can touch it.
 

With the two Cygnus pairs there is now a synergy that wasn’t there when I was mixing them with the Clear Reflection. What this leads to in practice is that I can play nearly any music close to 100 dB—nasty metalcore, jazz, electronica, Taylor Swift, and outlaw country at levels that will peal paint. Nuff said.

I do of course now wonder how Clear and Beyond would sound.

I have both Cardas Cygnus  I.Cs and speakers cables, for the last 4-5 years,  I added a Clear SPDIF cable earlier this year.  I have not tried any of Cardas P.C.s, I have no issues  with any of these cables and happy with the sound. The only other hi-end cable I tried was Nordost, and didn't care for them..... with the others being enrty to midfi cables. 

So, here are my current conclusions. Let’s state the obvious—cables make a significant difference in SQ. Now the question we are always working on is not what is best but what works in our individual systems and to our ears. 
 

So for my system, Shunyata is smooth and very easy to listen to without any fatigue. Solid dynamics and less edgy than my Wireworld, but not overly exciting. To use Darko’s analogy, it’s a sit back and relax cable that creates a cohesive sound. This is generally what I like.
 

Cardas is instantly wow, sit forward and hear things I haven’t hear before. It’s holy s*$& I didn’t know my system can do that sound. I was listening to Dark Side of the Moon and was floored, but depending on one’s mood can be too much. 

Comparing these cables, keeping in mind my speaker cables have remained unchanged (Wireworld), has been as big changes as swapping electrons. I love this discovery, because swapping cables is easier and more economical (to a degree). I could see having both sets honestly for different flavors.

For now I’ve made a small move towards Cardas with the order of a pair Cygnus interconnects which will allow me to try Cygnus between my DAC and Pre and amps.

That said, I’m marveling at the smooth musicality of the Shunyata set I’m listening to now. 

IMO, all cables and all gear need about 200 hours (constant playing for 8 days) before they are near their best.  I put a cheap Chinese amp in my system to save my expensive tubes while that’s going on.

@w123ale "...detailed but not etched treble".

Did you find the Cygnus interconnects to be etched treble?

They are more revealing or have a tad more over-exposed sound in my system, depending on which dac or source I’m running. imo Cygnus gel better in a softer sounding system. THIS is why I resold them and went with another pair of Clear Reflection ICs, fwiw. However, it seems as if you got what you wanted with Shunyatas. Take extra time with each set of cables before swapping out/in.

@decooney I know I shouldn’t flip flop the cables, but I can’t help myself! Letting the Shunyata stay in the system for a while. Neutral, open, solid bass, detailed but not etched treble. I do think I need to try Delta interconnects. 

A year ago I auditioned $6K worth of Venom-X cables. The audible difference/improvement was like buying a new piece of electronic gear. Needless to say I kept all of those cables. At the time I was using Rogue M180s, Rogue RP-7, Focal Kanta No.2s, Yamaha CD-S1000, NAD C-658, Thorens TD-1601, Hegel V-10, Ortofon Cadenza Blue. A few months back I sold off the Rogue and Focals gear and am now using a Pass Labs XA25, a Rogue RH-5 preamp, and Wharfdale Linton speakers. For fun I went back to my old AQ Water cables. The Venom-X still sound much better in the new system. To my ears they are some outstanding cables and across at least 2 platforms. I have other amps I swap in and out and I don't seem to realize any negative change in sound quality I can tie directly to the cables.

Your mileage may vary.

@w123ale keep trying different cables. I would highly recommend Kimber KS 1126. Excellent balance top to bottom, air, dynamics, resolution, great tone and musicality in spades. You can pick up a used set for the cost of new Cardas Cygnus and try them out. Or continue on with a Shunyata Delta line. Your system is on a level of these interconnects. 

@w123ale Update: listening to the Shunyata interconnects to DAC and to amps. Well heck, sounding pretty balanced and getting out of the way. Not wow, but just this sounds like music. Hmm, this won’t be easy to sort out. Both cable sets are quite good.

That’s what matters the most. If you find a synergy that works for you in your system, trust your ears and ask yourself if you are more engaged in the music.

If you like the Shunyata, there you go. No need to look at Cardas Parsec or others mentioned prior. Cardas Cygnus is a more open and detailed IC. Parsec is a tad more veiled over and more grainy than Cygnus. Once you move up the line to standard Clear, it’s a smoother and different sound yet again. As mentioned before, I will share again - flip-flopping back and forth with Cardas and other cables does not work well, you gotta leave them be and not keep moving and messing with them for a few weeks, then rotate back to Shunyata again, will help to decide. Best of Luck.

Update: listening to the Shunyata interconnects to DAC and to amps. Well heck, sounding pretty balanced and getting out of the way. Not wow, but just this sounds like music. Hmm, this won’t be easy to sort out. Both cable sets are quite good.

You probably had the Clear Reflection connected backward and the electrons got confused. 🙄

Hello

i have about 4 years living with all Cygnus cabeling

and recently put in Clears from a Little Loco to JC2 preamp

sound is incredible and emotionally engaging 

At this level of cable they are all good

Good luck Willy -T

@jtcf I was thinking of exactly the same thing of mixing and matching Cardas. Do you have any experience with the Parsec line? Cheaper and warmer. Thinking it could be interesting to consider for a longer speaker cable run I need to make.

@w123ale  Probably will put them aside for a couple of days and focus on the Cardas.

When testing gear, always a good test for me is when I just keep listening to my test songs through, rather than jumping around between tracks.

--------------

A couple of days is not enough, give it two weeks with Cygnus, let them relax and settle in and get use to them yourself. I'd try them at your source first, imo.  When there is no need to jump around between tracks any longer, a sign of getting closer.  

decooney has experimented with more cables than I though I've tried many myself. What I have found is it's usually a mistake to go with one line throughout: example all Cygnus.The one thing that irritates you (brightness) would be compounded.Mixing in others from the same brand will result in the best balance for your equipment and listening taste.If the Cygnus is a keeper, you could start there and start figuring out where a drop of warmth is needed or a lean clear signal is best.It's a process:-)

@decooney I appreciate your insight as I have admired Cardas from afar and now get to try their interconnects. I’ve been seriously thinking about switching my interconnects and speaker cables to Cardas. It’s great to have Cygnus and Reflection in hand for a comparison. My system is warm leaning with a Mc system and a tube pre. Newer SF speakers are definitely more revealing than older models.

Of the cables I’m comparing, the Cygnus instantly revealed so much more in my system—better micro dynamics, more separation, tighter bass, and more engaging overall. How would you say Clear would compare with Cygnus?

I really like that that there is such a pronounced difference between Reflection and Cygnus—makes for a real choice on the type SQ one is looking for.

I’ve now given the Shunyata cables a try. Initial impressions are not a huge differed between Venom and Venom X—X a bit more revealing. They seems to be pretty balanced sounding cables but neither seemed to move the needle on my system. Probably will put them aside for a couple of days and focus on the Cardas.

When testing gear, always a good test for me is when I just keep listening to my test songs through, rather than jumping around between tracks. This has been the Cygnus so far. I just want to keep listening and if I have another cable in I feel I’m missing something. That of course is a sign of a good cable for my system.

@audphile1 kind of you to remember my PC shoot out. Indeed I did go with the Delta V2 which is superb and has had me thinking about a full Shunyata cable system but Cardas has always held interest for me. I so love the Cable Company and being able to try things out. So often we don’t like what we think we should like and then like something else. It’s the fun of it all.

"@jjss49 it amazes me that cardas would make an overtly warm and dull cable in their ’clear’ line"...

Yes, it is confusing, they threw one in the middle of the line to make that so.

I also own(ed) Clear Cygnus and now Clear Reflection, and many other Cardas for that matter. Any of the clear line is clear in different ways. Yes, results are different among the line. And, results can vary depending on the clarity and transparencey of equipment and speakers being used.

Yes, the 4-wire Cygnus is going to be more transparent than the 2-wire Reflection cable (different hybrid design of old/new technology), two different cables. "Overly warm", not necessarily, unless someone’s preamp or dac, speakers, and system is already veiled over to begin with. Clear Reflection, need not apply with overly smoothed over McIntosh systems, time to break out Std Clear or Clear Beyond. Or, check and try other brands. The new clear line is different from old 90s Cardas.

Going up the line of "clear" Clear Cygnus, Std Clear, Clear Beyond increasingly have more transparency cut from more of the same dna. Clear Reflection is not the same (odd man out), it’s a hybrid of the older cross and new clear line. I am running 3 pairs of Clear Reflection, listening to them in my system right now. My system is transparent to begin with. Took 10+ days for them to relax, to lose mechanical tension with the internal dialectric, and then they open up a little more. Bright no. Warm no. Neutral with the high freq slightly more smoothed out, yes.

The whole line is completely misunderstood by folks who’ve not tried or compared them personally in your system for a longer period of time. i.e people can’t be swapping Cardas cables back and forth every 30m, gotta let them sit and play 10-14+ days. No joke, tested this literally 100s of times with brand new and used ones coming out of a box coiled up. Gotta try the different versions of clear to understand the limitations & benefits.Every one if these cables has a different result, fwiw.

I’m re-comparing them to all of my former [other brand] OCC and Silver-Over copper cables, and I’ve owned many. Yep, it’s all weird and makes no sense :) All those others are gone now, off to new owners enjoying them now. Back to Cardas, past 30+yrs. I just tell people to go buy other cables and wish them best of luck, unless they are willing to work with TheCableCo or.a dealer to try them out 1st hand.

Those who’ve tried them [in their system] know, love it or hate it. It’s hard to explain to those who’ve not tried them at all fwiw.  

it is a chain so it all matters

but in my experience, the first connection (from the source) is most pivotal, for obvious reasons -- think back to analog/turntables, that cable from the tt was absolutely key to sonics

@w123ale not surprised about Cardas. I heard that wool warm blanket when I tried their Clear Beyond power cord. I’m sure it works well in some systems and sounds good to some listeners but I pass.
 

few things if I may…

In my experience, when it comes to interconnects, having the best set between the preamp and amp will get the most ROI. Speaker cables and amplifier power cord would also be at the top of the list. 

I remember reading your post on Shunyata Delta NR v2 power cord on DAC. If that’s the power cord you ended up with, I’d recommend staying with the same level interconnects and speaker cables. 

Would you agree that the interconnect between the DAC and the pre has more influence on SQ than between the pre and the monos?