From the Duelund site....page on CAST capacitors. Yes mine do say CAST on them....
CAST
Worlds best capacitor
The Duelund CAST Capacitor is our no holds barred flagship capacitor.
The construction builds on the foundation of our Virtual Stack Foil design but does so with the addition of a proprietary WPIO dielectricum which necessitates several days of impregnation under high pressure.
This creates a form with incredible damping properties giving a mechanical stability hitherto unheard of.
On top of this casting process, a ring of hard pressed paper strengthens the damping properties of the design helping music flow effortlessly.
The Duelund CAST capacitor is available for speaker use and as the CAST 630v for DC-applications for size considerations this cap is cylindrical.
Available as pure copper or copper/silver.
Standard sizes 0.001 uF 50 uF other values available on request.
The Duelund CAST Capacitor is considered the worlds best capacitor: |
I will need to look, the Parts Connextion site says its a PIO as well as reviews and website.... |
Grannyring
Does the label on your .22uf states that it is pio? |
To be honest I am becoming less enamored with Duelund. With Jupiter who needs the crazy expense and I am hearing of leaky CAST caps regularly from folks. Duelund is very good about replacing leaky caps for free and that is a good thing.
I am also confused as to what a CAST cap is! The .22uf one in my work room, cut in half, has no paper in it and has layer after layer of thin plastic or Mylar stuff. No joke guys.
I sense the lower voltage crossover CAST caps, the ones that are wide and flatter, are the most special ones.
I just purchased some Jupiter copper foil caps for speakers. The new 100 volt caps. I will report back to all once they are in.
Thus far the high voltage Jupiter caps have bested the high voltage CAST caps in the electronics I have used. We will see how good the 100 volt crossover caps are soon. The 3.3 uf caps cost $200 each and are not cheap, but they are still priced well under CAST. They go on sale for 20% off at Parts C and Sonic Craft reducing the cost to $160 each. |
If so that makes the RS very different than CAST an oil cap clearly.
I wish Duelund would chime in here and clear some air and as to why the switch? |
Grannyring
My guess is 20 hours?
From partsconnexion I heard the Duelund RS are wax?
Do we have wax vs. oil going on here? |
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Well the Jupiters are not fully broke in but I do have some early thoughts.
These caps are heavily damped. Wax seems to be lower noise than oil caps. So in that sense some may prefer them. This might be similar to when I tested wax paper tweeter inductor vs. Duelund VSF. That was a tough one as the Duelund was more liquid and let more sound through but noisier.
On tone controls I have brought treble up from -2 to -4 up to at least neutral.
I will say Jupiter caps do not add to the sound romanticize if you wish.
This is going to be a wax vs. oil test...
I am going to put the Duelund tweeter inductor in again for another try.
Now I read on Tony Gee's site the new RS caps from Duelund are wax? Is this correct anyone know? |
Yes, give them so time and you will smile:) |
4 installed.
The leak on the CAST happens right at the lead...
More to follow. |
6 Jupiter Coppers to install! |
Looking forward to them! Should be here today and I will install right away. The Copper Foil are bigger than the standard ones. Interesting on the Beeswax Tony gave them 11.5 another reviewer did not like at all? My initial impression was Tony was about right.
I wonder about wax in general very low resonance more than oil? I would think so... Could prove to be very useful in the phono stage where these are going.
Anyone tried Duelund RS? That is my only other option since CAST is out of the question. (now price wise for small special values)
When done EVERY single cap in my amp will be Jensen Copper Foil Paper Tube, Duelund CAST, Duelund VSF, Jupiter Copper Foil and maybe a couple Jupiter Beeswax.
Anyone else have the entire amp with high end caps? |
The only Jupiter caps I have ever used were the flat stacked HT and the new copper foil. These are the top end of their line. Both are very good, but the new copper foil are more neutral and resolving revealing far more micro details. The new copper caps manage to deliver SOTA resolution without ever sounding hard, forced, bright or thin. Even handed top to bottom. Smooth as silk and lots of air. They seem to have it all. At least compared to everything else currently available. |
Grannyring
I have actually been listening to the regular Beeswax caps from Jupiter (compared to vintage) they sent the wrong ones.
Can you tell me what to expect for the difference? Have you heard both?
The Copper ones should be in by Wednesday is my guess.
I could not get over how small they were compared to CAST. (which may come in handy)
For sure lower resonance than vintage.
I thought they were pretty good but saying CAST good was a head scratching stretch... |
Grannyring
I guess I just have to hear this! (CAST vs. Jupiter)
Not saying you are wrong and can not wait to hear what Jimmy and Tony think as well...
If as good or close to as good I intend to buy quite a few... (tight spots) |
Grannyring, I completely agree with you about the importance of the shunt components. In my case, I have 2 shunt parts in the crossover itself---a shunt coil on the high frequency driver and a shunt cap on the woofer. Each of these is critical sonically. Different types of caps and coils, even with the same value, can sound very different.
In my design, I also have a Zobel network on the HF driver consisting of a small coil in series with a 5R resistor, in parallel with the driver itself. Each of these parts is also important sonically. I cannot imagine why anyone would say they aren't important.
My crossover is on an outboard panel on the floor behind each speaker. I made several changes to the crossovers when I moved them outside the speakers so I can't say what sonic changes were due to the outboard location alone. But regardless of sonics it is certainly easier to change parts when everything is external and easily accessible.
I will take some photos of the crossovers and post them shortly. |
Volley, you will give up nothing compared to the Duelund CAST caps used in electronics vs. Jupiter copper caps. At least the ones sold at Parts Connextion. I and many others, all others I know who have done it, prefer the new Jupiter caps in their electronics. Thus far we have used them in DAC's and tube preamps & power amps. |
Salectric
Good to hear. I was looking at your system again and your DIY amps look very well built. Nice work!
So it seems caps or resistors to shunt in a crossover are in fact important!
I know this to be true from experience. Interesting how the builders for the two last speakers I have owned said parts in these positions to not make a difference. They said Zobel network and/or parts to shunt ground are not important. I am curious why they say this, but actual experience in those same designs proves otherwise.
Those with crossover parts in these positions please do not overlook them for an upgrade as they do in fact make a difference.
Is your crossover internal or external? Love to see a picture. I found removing the crossover from all the turbulence in the cabinet yields more sonic improvement which makes sense.
I removed the crossover from my Lahave speaker and rebuilt them with upgraded parts outboard. I also damped the outboard box and placed it on stand. You helped me source those wonderful North Creek inductors and I also used Duelund and Jupiter caps as well as Jupiter solid core copper wire .... 14 gauge. I also rewired the speaker from drivers to outboard crossover with the same Jupiter solid core copper and cotton wire.
The results are stunning and well worth the effort.
I bet your speakers sound fantastic as well as your system. Really like viewing your system page. I will post mine again soon. |
New Duelund CAST caps installed in my speakers today. These are for the woofer shunt caps in a 2d order crossover. Even stone cold, they trounce the Mundorf Supreme caps that were previously my favorite for that spot. The excellent midrange detail, tight yet powerful bass, and excellent dynamics all far exceed my expectations, and this is with only 5 hours! |
Back from being away for a week.
I have been reading Jimmy has not completed his review too busy and Tony Gee has had these caps for months?
I have put in two and will have a bunch more this week coming.
I can say they are similar to the CAST in revealing wear in the vinyl. They are low noise and I was thinking I was going to have to do major mods on a vintage amp to put small value caps in but these Jupiter's fit the bill size wise! Now are they better than CAST? That is a serious listening test.
I am also looking at caps for my office system to replace vintage caps and would give up a little quality over CAST to save some money. So that could mean more sales for Jupiter.
I also might replace my other leaky CAST with some Duelund RS?
Duelund does not make CAST at lower prices for my size of cap. Quite frankly CAST might just be too expensive for the difference?
The Duelund RS is more in the price range of the Jupiter's. More but not crazy more if one was to like them better.
Looks like some interesting comparisons coming up!
Initial impressions of the Jupiter's is very good.
When I take out the CAST the first test will be Jupiter vs. Jensen Copper Paper Tube.
I have to say this thread has worked out even for me much better than I ever thought. Quickly from opinions here I could buy a cap (Jupiter in this case) and kind of know what I was getting. (when this thread started it was a lot of trial and error and often at a good deal of money)
I do not believe this was possible before the internet. Publications who might do this would be tied to advertising.
Off to watch a movie on the stereo and have to admit just awesome watching a movie with this kind of sound quality in two channel. |
Audioman58,
Interesting and informative, but please slow down a bit. With the typos etc. it is very difficult to read. Thanks. |
I have used the Jupiter HT in a few builds very natural ,and as balanced as the rest of the circuit ,your sourse will dictate how fast or slow the Xover sounds. Jupiter square caps, or HT are their best, evrn niw have a a Copper cap that is very rich and detailed.,inductor use a good one like Jantzen Copper foil the best per dollar out there, Path audio resistors1%
Is superior to even the Duelund cast resistors but take well over 200 hours to fully settle in. Neotech -0 Chrystal wiring is excellent
I use solid core for the inside of speakers use all quality your ears will thank you?the Xover is the heart or the brain
Capacitors great tweeter mix Obbliggato Gold great value
Next up and close to big money caps 20% Mundorf Silver oil capacitor
And Clarity ESA capacitor for other 80% save $100 per cap and 95 % as good. |
Jupiters are anything but slow and damped in sound. In my experience they set the new standard for natural and neutral sound.
No worries about slow and damped. What Jupiter has achieved is certainly something needed in our hobby. Affordable SOTA capacitors that give nothing up to those caps costing several hundred to over one thousand dollars each. Those who have used them in tube amps and preamps have told me the same. They are very good! |
I see Jimmy has a some Jupiter's in for a test but has not posted the results.
Any speculation???
He also has Duelund CAST Silvers. So he will not be an easy guy to impress.
He too was shocked by just how small they are.
For me I had some areas that would require major work to fit in something like the CAST or even Jensen. So these are great!
So far though I do like the Jupiter's as replacements for the vintage. Much better bass much lower noise...
I am going to try and get some more hours in on them as I leave for a couple of days but am looking at ordering 4 more of the small value caps.
My thoughts before they went in they might be slow and damped in sound? I have some experience in wax paper (inductors) great for resonance reduction but not so slippery fast like silk. |
has anyone tried jupiter caps as parallel ac filter caps yet? |
You will love them for sure. My go to cap now for electronics. Wish they would get the speaker value caps out. Taking a long, long time.... |
The Jupiters seem to break in pretty quickly compared to other premium caps I have tried. You should hear 90-95% of their capability after 50-60 hours. 100 hours and they are pretty much "cooked" properly. |
Jupiters installed in the phono stage. (small values)
Reduction in record surface noise and more bass as compared to the vintage caps they replaced.
They are much easier to work with in this case and might have been the only option due to size compared to Jensen or Duelund.
More to follow and soon direct comparison to a Jensen Copper Foil Paper tube coming. (can not yet compare to CAST due to them coming out because of leaks) |
Jupiter caps are here and there is a MASSIVE size difference from the CAST. Not saying the Jupiter will not sound good but is much closer in size to the vintage than the CAST. In fact Jupiter is much smaller than the Jensen Copper Paper tube caps.
The small size might come in handy as CAST are not easy to put everywhere. In my amp I know there is spots where there just is not room for a CAST cap. |
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The low DCR value of the North Creek was a very good thing in my speaker. Did not change the tone at all for the worse. Not sure the tone changed at all. Just a better sounding speaker now. I can put a .33 ohm resistor in series with the NC inductor to ground to match the higher DCR of the old Solen inductors. I tried that and quite frankly heard very little difference. In the end no resistor was needed.
George at North Creek was confident his lower DCR inductor would improve the sound and walked me through the reasoning. Based on my experience lower DCR is a good thing.
I suppose in some situations it may change the tone etc... a tad. It did not in my crossover and speaker. Just cleaner, faster, better micro detail, backer background, and more musical. |
Took apart the amp today to check on room for the small value Jupiter caps.
What I seen was my other Duelund CAST cap is leaking the other one to the pair. It is a fairly new leak just started. (I could not hear it still sounds great) Not thrilled about second Duelund cap leaking bad batch? No other Duelund caps leaking...
Jupiters will go in early next week if in stock. |
Interesting to read page #49.
Much talk about inductors. Oddly enough the part most will "draw the line" on and to be honest so would have I...
I have tried the vintage wax paper, North Creek and Duelund VSF. The North Creek was of a lower DCR and to me that is/was dangerous in changing tonal balance. With inductors my opinion is they MUST have a way of dealing with resonance.
Inductors make a BIG difference but do not get the hype of caps and resistors. I am not sure why? (even my vintage speakers used wax to deal with resonance)
The shocking thing was the Duelund gave a big high freq noise reduction in the woofer. I just did not expect that... (I was thinking more bass which it did but less noise?)
Maybe the biggest upside surprise to me was the money I spent on the inductors and have wondered many times if I should have got CAST...
That being said inductors are one off parts that are expensive. Mine are $559 each at current prices. The CAST ones are $1118 each all plus tax here... I paid a fair bit less...
As is being said on here I would not want to put $2k+ in inductors for parts for speakers to sell!!!
I think Jupiter could get into this making a high quality wax paper inductor. It would blow away anything else out there... (save CAST maybe) |
Wow I just read page #48 and have not read page #49!
I step out for a little while and Holy Smokes lots of action!
Just at the part about John K. (sorry if I say something in page #49!)
"If I mod'ed it it must be better". (posted by Johnk)
That is EXACTLY how this thread started! I swapped out one whole network (one speaker) and left the other original.
I (like most) was quite happy with my handy work and I brought my wife down for a listen as an unbiased opinion. She was totally impressed! She thought the difference was huge from the two networks and said "you must really be thrilled to get such an improvement"? (not having done any of this before)
The problem was she was picking the vintage foil in oil network NOT the new poly caps!...
I knew at that moment things were not going to be clear money was going to be spent and sometimes wasted and this was going to have to be wrote off as interesting experiment.
I knew I was going to have to listen lots.
Some did not like the mod one speaker listen for a long time if good do the mod to the other carry on method but as JohnK mentioned you can not test from memory.
In time (and after some failures) I got better at what would work and gained some understanding. As one's understanding grows so does the frustration with most new gear... (but I do know why high end parts are not used)
This thread is about people's opinions for the most part with nothing sell.
I have said (and is deserved) a lot of good about Duelund parts. Oddly enough though I am one who has had a Duelund CAST cap leak and in reality Duelund is the ONLY capacitor I have had fail.
Now Duelund will give a refund which leaves me with one CAST at the value... (not a common value)
I am using the store credit for some Jupiter caps, quite likely. I have to just see if they fit. My pace of alterations has slowed in recent years. Am I upset? No! I am not even looking at new gear which is a good thing! (very happy)
Johnk has been on this thread for a long time and has made some valid points but I believe he is a horn speaker builder.
I have said on here many times I would not want to build speakers with Duelund parts and try and make money!
Do the parts matter? YES! Would I want to use them build speakers to make money? NO! |
Vicente look me up and drop me a note at tone acoustics. |
Salectric, Thanks. My components are probably quite broken in, first several days in the cable cooker and then many hours in the crossover.
I see your point. It would take a while to try all the alternatives given the high number for caps and inductors, but worth trying. |
VPN, I am not Tom but I have some suggestions. First, while placement is important, I don't think there are any one-size-fits-all generalizations to be made. In my case, with a Duelund CAST crossover cap, I started out with 3 brass cones under its flat surface. This combination added some life and speed which was necessary at first because the cap starts out rather dark and lifeless. As it broke in, I tried other arrangements and for a while liked having just 1 cone close to one edge of the cap leaving the other side of the cap touching the mounting surface at just one point. That worked fine for a while but eventually I went to 3 small cubes of Baltic Birch plywood each one about 3/4" on a side. That gave to my ears the most natural balance. So you need to try different supports but be prepared to reach different conclusions as to what sounds best as the CAST cap breaks in.
For my big North Creek inductors, I used the same 3 cube supports but the mounting arrangement did not make as much difference. |
Hello Tom,
Yes, I have read Jeff's excellent blog.
Regarding the mechanical coupling of the Duelund components:
1. Only for the caps or the inductors too?
2. Best solution would be the smallest Audipoints?
4. What are Audiopoints made off? Brass?
5. Would I have to glue the bottom of the Duelunds to audiopoints? What would I use to make them stick to the audiopoints?
6. Would I use Audiopoints .2AP.7D with the tip directly in the wood? or the sound would be better with APCD2 coupling disks?
7. Three Audioponts below each large component?
8. How about the smaller caps/inductors that would not fit three Audipoints below them?
Thanks,
VPN |
I suppose you found this...http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?p=3794.
Let us know how it all finishes out. You could use direct mechanical coupling methods for all these flat stack components as they are attached to the mother board. I would not mount these components with any soft materials..you will slow everything down. Tom |
Regarding the 220uf Caps to replace the Solen in my crossover (parallel to the 2x 15" woofers), I decided to buy two 220uf Duelund Cast/Mylar. Just ordered them today. Looking forward to testing them. |
Those Solen caps also measure very well on my LCR meter, with a dissipation factor that's borderline unmeasureable. Actually quite a bit lower than the Duelund CAST I've measured. Of course that's not the only important factor for a cap but it is interesting. |
Sorry Air, I thought you were talking about Solen inductors! I found the North Creek to outclass the Solen inductors by quite a margin.
Yes Solen caps are far better than electrolytic caps for sure in that position. No choice, or little choice in values that large for bass. Clarity now makes some nice TC film caps that cost more than the Solens, but are said to be very, very good. |
Air I agree you on the Solen inductors for bass, but the North Creek is in another league. Check them out on your next project! |
Ait,
The stock Coincident Eclipse speaker is "very" good sounding with the Solen capacitor. It's just notable the considerable improvement provided by the Duelund CAST substitution. |
Here's a bit of heresy. I actually think Solens sound very good in the lower frequency ranges. I have them in the woofer (<150Hz, 200uF) and low midrange (150-800Hz, 70uF) circuits in my RSIIb speakers, and the sound is excellent. Far, far better than the electrolytics they replaced.
I do find they are not so good at higher frequencies, though. Every time I've used them on a tweeter I haven't liked the results. Harsh is the word that comes to mind. |
I did not this time around as that would require more investment of money that I don't have right now. Just mounted the crossover on a board outside the speaker. |
Bill
Have you direct mechanically coupled the parts as we spoke about? The inductors could be dipped in the Cascade material we discussed and allowed to harden. Tom |
Tom, I think your statement is spot on and what happened for me. DCR difference is something that must be dealt with in some instances. Wether it is audible or not, good or bad sound wise, or if a lower DCR necessitates the use of an additional resistor are all real considerations.
John, my inductors were clearly marked with a label stating the value. Call North Creek as I am sure they can determine the value of yours.
If you change the gauge you may very well change the inductor's DCR which can change the sound of your speaker and tonal balance. In my case all went astoundingly well. George of North Creek is very helpful and can help you. |
Bill,
What were some of the effects the North Creek inductors made in your system? Also, did they permit you to send your original inductors and then match the original values?
In my last crossover I used Goertz 12awg ribbon inductors but am curious about the North Creek inductors and would appreciate your and Sal's thoughts.
Cheers,
John |
I'm assuming that to build a better inductor, you'd need to worry about better wire, larger gauge wire and resonance control - does that sound even remotely correct?
I have a speaker manufacturer that has offered to do the job for me with his own "method" but, frankly I have no idea what that means...lol
Bill and Tom - I'm reading your posts about inductors and only some of it makes sense to me (naturally)......
Maybe I need to ask a specific question here - what does one look for in a high quality inductor? I think that could be a good place to start.....
Tas |
