Capacitor

What is everybodys take on the Jupiter copper foil in wax

My go to cap for years.  Used literally dozens of them. Great sounding cap for sure. But, the VH Audio newer Odams are better sounding based on my experience.  More open, improved bass and dynamics. 

any idea what caps would be good for interstage value being 0.1uf and .01uf@400VDC

@jasbirmandra,
I have replaced the Solens capacitors in my Coincident Frankenstein 300b mono blocks (One cap per channel) with the Jupiter copper foil capacitors. They  are very high quality and very good sounding.

I believe that the Duelund CAST Copper foil is even better sounding. As you well know this is all pure subjectivity and reflective of individual taste.
Charles

@charles1dad 

Thank you for the kind words.

I don't know why some would question the benefit of changing to superior quality capacitors versus price point influenced stock choices

I think it’s a before vs after thing. If you had listened to an amp before an upgrade and then after, the upgrade is obvious. If you get an amp that’s already upgraded, it’s going to sound as good but you won’t be able to appreciate what the caps brought to the table. 

@jasbirnanda

I don’t know if you have considered Dynamicaps. I have used them in the past when I had to stick to a strict budget. They are not as good as VCaps, but they have what I call "sparkle". Like their name suggest, they sound very dynamic and alive. It’s almost like the music leaps out of your speaker right at you.

I recall I liked them a little more than Jupiter beeswax, but it’s too long ago to remember the details. I used Dynamicaps for a long time till I had money to replace them with VCaps.

Taste is very personal, so you may like them or you may really not like them. If you do consider trying them, I would suggest to try 1 pair only at first. Dynamicaps cost about half (or less) what ODAMs cost.

Good luck with your choices.

Thanks Pauly money is not the issue here but it is the way I want my music to be served to me with that 3D holographic image that ghosting effect of the musician being there in the room with lushness and correct tone and timber of the instruments this is what confuses me as to which Cap would be able to do this magic

more votes were for the duelund but they do not have the value I am looking for and they are quite big to fit in my pre the only option left is the Jupiter, Odam, miflex and the rike q caps.

For the very small caps (0.01uF), there is very little difference in price between Dueland Cast & VCap CuTF and the ones from your list. 

You should consider the Dueland or CuTF for the 0.01uF because for very little more money, you can get a lot more performance.

+1 @pauly, excellent suggestion. 
Charles 

I am placing the order for the Jupiter 3.3uf the Jantzen superior Z could make me smile I can not say what the Jupiter will do.

Vcap Odams are the better choice, vs Jupiter, as I use both in speaker and electronics applications.  Not close.  This is something I can say with 110% confidence. You will like the Jupiter, no doubt, but miss out on what the Odams do better. 

@grannyring , you've really piqued my interest in trying the Odams in my highly modded Klipschorn crossovers. Presently using combo of Jupiter VT and Audyn True Copper Max. So, how will odam improve on these caps? And how are they on tonal balance, accentuate, soften or change any part of frequency spectrum? My total system is voiced for these caps, wouldn't want any frequency spectrum changes.
I'm also amazed by the relatively small size of the odam, and relatively low price. I've only considered Duelund Cast as upgrade up to now.

After all the above views and experience of all the forum members the only zero in on the caps I have narrowed down are two.
I have been looking into more 3D image correct tone of instruments:

1:Jupiter Copper and Paper Wax 
2: VCap Odam

Duelund is out of the game for the size issue, price and non availability.
________________________________________________

Now kindly vote for the above two and I shall pull the Trigger.
________________________________________________

Lastly thanks to all of you who have been so supportive and taken time to provide their views and participated in this discussion. 

Odams are simply more real sounding than Jupiter copper foils. Improved realism. The stage is more open and speakers disappear more than Jupiter. Bass has more impact with the Odams. The Odams are more dynamic. Odams are more at ease and in perfect balance top to bottom at higher volumes.
Odams are a tad warm with great tonality. The Jupiters are better at fine inner details and are a tad more lively on top.

My favorite capacitor is the Duelund CAST tinned copper version.  They are available at HiFi Collective in the U.K.   They ship fast however.  Next is the Odam and then Jupiter copper foils. 

@grannyring 

Excellent post !

@jasbirnandra 

I cannot vote. My ODAMs will only arrive on Thursday and I heard Jupiter’s so long ago I cannot recall what they sound like.

If you really are in a bind to choose, why not get both? Pick one for an output cap and the other for interstage. Maybe your subconscious is trying to tell you something? 😆🤣

Up to now I perceived Odam as go to capacitor for electronics and where physical space at a premium. A lower priced and smaller size cap that beats higher priced and larger size caps? I'll be replacing the modwright caps in my phono stage with odams, perfect place to try as space at a premium.
I can only tell you my experience with many boutique caps has all been good, just different sonic signatures, none bad. If the odam is as good as stated, should be go to cap for nearly all circumstances. Although I've not heard Duelund Cast in my system, would still be my pick with no space or cost considerations.

Odams are great in speakers. Be aware of break in time as it is real with these Odams.  They take some 75-100 hours to fill in and open up.  A tad constipated sounding on first few hours.  After just 30 hours much better.  
They are directional so pay attention to outer foil. 

Dear @jasbirnandra and friends : Next are statements made it in this thread that similar to other statements made it in several threads ( including a thread I posted almost two years ago. ) on the capacitor issue: :

" Milflex are good, but not great. The VH Audio Odams sound better in every sonic way..."

"" more holographic image I suggest two cap brands.
- VH Audio Odams
- Duelund CAST CuSn - tinned copper version ""

""" New pre-amps, which incidentally will have the same or similar mediocre capacitors we are replacing in the Canary pre amps; meaning we’ll be back at square one looking to upgrade capacitors in our new pre amps. """

"""" the Duelund CAST Cu(Sn). This is the best sounding capacitor ever produced in my opinion. """"


""""" As I’ve said before in regard to them, they are worth every single penny charged for them. A superb sounding product """""

"""""" was immediately heard as an improvement ( Even though quite honestly the sound was very good with the stock Solens). Sound quality continued to improve as the CAST accumulated hours of break-in. """"""

""""""" It sounds like angels are in my room singing to me. Strings just hang in the air and the low level detail is almost overwhelming. """""""

"""""""" More open, improved bass and dynamics. """"""""

""""""""" And how are they on tonal balance, accentuate, soften or change any part of frequency spectrum? """""""""


With all respect to all of you. From where comes that differences in capacitor sounds when a good designed capacitor can’t develops/generate a sound by it self and certainly can’t improve the quality performance of good electronics designs or speaker crossovers.

When I posted my capacitor thread looking for help many of you posted about and I really appreciated your posts.

Well in those times I was not aware of the next link on capacitors,things are that I just found out today and could be truly interesting for some of us ( me included. ) this spot on capacitor article:



https://sound-au.com/articles/capacitors.htm



@jasbirnandra in the next link the last page of my thread. Please take your important time to read all that page that as the linked article is self explained:


https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/best-harmless-signatureless-speakers-capacitors?page=4


in that thread I posted several links with measures, proved facts and true evidences on the whole capacitor main issue. One of those links was this one ( you need to paste all the link: the black/blue  that start at " chrome-extension........ ):


chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/viewer.html?pdfurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.vishay.com%2Fdocs%2F26033%2Fgentechinfofilm.pdf&clen=595770&chunk=true

Certainly it’s not at random that Wima, Kemet and Vishay are the world industry capacitor standard.
You can name any kind of industry: medical instruments, military, aerospace, automotive and almost everywhere but " high-end " audio and only are used those caps in specific areas but as me in the past no one ask why are used " there " and not the " boutique/sneak oil " " caps ".

I invested thousands of dollars learning through the boutique ( almost coming from every manufacturer ) caps and finally I learned through the standar caps that are the ones I use in electronics and crossovers.

Of course because my main MUSIC/sound target in my room/audio system is to be truer to the recording truer with what the recording microphones pick-up in its MUSIC source near field position.
This means that I try to mimic what I listen in a live event seated at near field position as the microphones are, yes I’m really far away to achieve it.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Well hello again. Yes sir, try Wima on your own folks and see they are flat sounding and mediocre at best. Others have reviewed the Wima and found the same. Best to learn for yourself fellow Agoners. They are not expensive to try.

I believe @rauliruegas is sincere and has good intentions but he consistently has a ’know it all’ condescending manner toward other posters on this forum. I believe that he is convinced he has more exposure/experience/involvement/understanding with live music up close than ’any'  others here, so he must be the authority or arbiter of what’s correct.

He cited a few of my comments above in reference to Duelund CAST Copper foil capacitors. Well I stand by every word that I wrote. I judge strictly on what I’ve actually heard, no apologies. If he finds the Wima the best example of an audio capacitor, good for him. Others can if they are interested or curious listen to them and judge accordingly. I’m confident in my assessment of the CAST and as always YMMV.
Charles

I've used those Wima caps in a diy dac project years ago, meh.


Some over on Klipsch Cornwall IV thread modding crossover with the odams, really good reviews.

ODAMs are spectacular.  Grannyrig is spot on with everything above. 
I used ODAMS in a Cornwall IV crossover upgrade project.  I also used them on the output coupling caps in a Manley Chinook. 
My sense is they allow more and better signal transfer.  They are a touch warm but the detail is natural and spooky realistic. 

I've used those Wima caps in a diy dac project years ago, meh.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Say what you will. First Watt, Mac, Pass, VTL, and a dozen other preamp, power amps, active crossovers, etc are FULL of them. You name the company, chances are, there are at least a few WIMA caps in them.

Vishay has a cheap electrolytic 160v cap I use to use in crossover builds.  They were one of the best caps ever made. In 1 hour they sound the way they are going to sound. 160v may not be a 500 watt cap, but they hold up very well for the pennies spent.. Not a lot of different sizes either..  Resistors, no one makes better, copper (non mag) resistors..

I have a First Watt B5, Wima, and Vishay, Mac is the same, even Decware on their little IC boards. BTW which is a BIG step up from Audiophile Caps (Decware) used in the voicing of a stock ZP3. What a junk cap.. Anything would have been better.. First chance they are out of there..

TRTs I like teflons, in certain places, if I can stand the break in..
Coppers, I've gone through a few, NOW.. Maybe it's just me, but I'm not real impressed. I pulled them back out of a factory upgrade from Cary.
I changed valves, just knowing Jupiter was a great upgrade.. NO, 500 hours I kept asking where is the BEEF? TRTs went back in, night and day.. 

I used Audyn  copper foils on the signal coupling caps, They sure sound good there. Audyn is a BIG heavy cap, too. You recap with that cap you add POUNDS to the build.. LOL

Regards

I also like ClarityCap. They have great holographic spacing and spatialization.  They get large in size as you move up uF. 

I believe @rauliruegas is sincere and has good intentions but he consistently has a ’know it all’ condescending manner toward other posters on this forum. I believe that he is convinced he has more

There are no good intentions or sincerity. There was no intent to help the PO.

Yes, many use Wima as they are decent and inexpensive. It’s a cost issue and manufacturers must hit a cost and price point. Also a form issue. They are perfectly sized and proportioned for circuit boards. Also many high end manufacturers use VH Audio and Duelund in THE most important circuit positions such as output and coupling. These are builders in the know and open minded enough to actually try boutique caps!

Also, if we go by your reasoning why do the same companies using Wima caps also use many other middle of the road parts that simply meet spec. That’s it….meet spec on paper. These parts don’t offer SOTA sound quality. Look at all the gear built using sand cast resistors, Alps $20 pots and on and on….We are unfortunately talking about gear selling for many thousands! They use these parts for cost reasons and sometimes because they are not open to learning and experimenting with boutique parts. Designers are not necessarily skilled or expert in parts selection based on sound quality because they don’t have the time or inclination to dig into it.  That simple. This topic of part sound quality and personality is it’s own area of study with much to be learned. It takes time and effort. Even great designers like Nelson Pass say they are not interested in delving into it. He does not. Just not his interest or curiosity. This is common.

Clarity is what I use in my speakers and I am extremely happy with them.  Open and neutral without adding sparkle that isn't there.

I've heard gear with Wima, including AR and it all goes to neutral and not particularly moving to me.

So clear why so few use boutique parts in audio equipment. Business models don't care or ask why, even most audiophiles unaware of sound quality changes boutique parts can evoke. So, profit margins ok, most consumers ok with status quo, what's not to like.
I've been around the diy audio boutique parts game for perhaps twenty years now, I'd estimate we're around 1% of audiophiles. We're like lone voices in the wilderness, perceived as iconoclasts looking for that last 1-2% of performance. Nothing could be further from the truth. I'd say the one thing I find in common amongst us is the seeking of truth of timbre, boutique parts are specifically designed for their sound signature. IME, performance increases of much greater than 1-2% are possible, in fact to be expected.  If you don't believe parts have sound signatures this is all nuts to you.

As time moves on, I observe increasing use of boutique parts in audio equipment, at least amongst the smaller manufacturers. These guys are subjectivist audiophile/engineers, a rare breed based on use of these parts. These are the people who take the time to voice their equipment in top flight systems, likely try many parts over time, pick what they consider best for their equipment. This is the kind of equipment I seek out these days, I'd actually prefer not having to diy mod equipment. My present dac uses all boutique/top flight parts, my custom designed 300b monoblocks were built with input from me and further diy mods, my 845SET and preamp are both filled with top flight parts which don't require any diy.

The Klipsch Cornwall thread here finds a few doing the exact same crossover mod with the Odam caps and a few other things. If Klipsch is paying attention and we're lucky we may someday see upgraded parts in stock Klipsch Heritage. In regard to manufacturers paying attention, some years ago I upgraded both my crossovers and BAM in Merlin VSM-MM with Duelund VSF caps. In my excitement I called Bobby at Merlin, very irritated that I had the nerve to change his perfect creation. Lo and behold, a few months later he comes out with upgraded VSM with Duelund VSF! I was ticked off with his reaction to me, but respectful in the sense he did care about best performance with his speakers. By the way, the upgrade from stock Hovland caps to Duelund was pretty stunning.

Most folks don’t understand the basic economic problem.

Simply because a manufacturer uses a particular capacitor, does not mean its the best or even any good. Far from it. It actually means it was the very cheapest/convenient capacitor that could possibly be used by the manufacturer to attain a level of performance that would achieve projected sales targets.

This is true for resistors, regulators, PC boards, transformers, cabling, you-name-it.

There are precious few exceptions to this. You can bet dollars to doughnuts when a particular capacitor is  often used in audio components, it is definitely not the best.

"Somebody" needs to take a economics 101 class ...

Dear @charles1dad @grannyring and friends:

Could be that I look as a condensendent person and that I not only know but are superior in audio subjects to any one else.

Well, that kind of " look " is only that because I’m different and certainly always learning from any gentleman as you and even from audio rookies.

I remember all of you that as you I was entitled with the boutique capacitors and against Wima like ones. Even every single audio item I bougth in the last 30 years my first step with was change all the Wima caps for " better " caps that always sounded to me better in exactly the same way as all of you.

So please don’t have a misunderstood on me and what is behind my posts. In my capacitor thread is all explained and through that thread I DISCOVERED Wima/Kemet/Vishay JUNK capacitors. Yes was a total turn around in my audio life and happened in the best time with my room/system when is fine tunned better than ever.

Now, the capacitor subject is not an issue of " I like it " but is first than all understand what does and what does not a capacitor ( that’s why I share that link. ). It’s a engeneering subject and sooner or latter we need to understand it.

It’s not true that top electronics designers don’t choose " boutique " caps because $$$ or because the caps dimensions or because " are not open to learning ".
Far aaway from there, the competition at that high electronics levels makes that all those manufacturers look to give to the market THE BEST OF THE BEST and nothing less.

In my thread I linked electronics with a cost no object price: 80K+ for an amplifier or over 60K for a preamp ( CH is an example. ) where the circuit boards are full of Wima or Wima like caps everywhere. These designers has no problem design with expensive caps because the audiophiles are willing to buy the products coming from those top manufacturers.



https://lammindustries.com/pages/power-amplifiers-ml3/

do you know its very high prices? maybe no one here can afford it and guess what : WIMA and VISHAY Roderstein caps.

Here other example:

https://lammindustries.com/lamm-website/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/M2.2_inside.jpg


Problem with all of us audiophiles and MUSIC lovers is that in reality " we are not willing to learn " not even to read something that " moves the land " as earthwake.


As audiophiles some of us ( including me. ) are at the hunt of " boutique " items that can " improve " our systems and we go for the more expensive and we don’t use or name/post Wima because is " junk " and we can " lost " figure and credibility. Unfortunatelly we are just followers and I’m sorry to said it.

It’s totally " weird " ( for say the least . ) that it does not matters the electronic/speaker item each time we change caps for the " boutique " ones always sound the better and is a full improvement.

How can be that way and what could means? it could means that the items designs all are WRONG designed because with the cap changes we " improved "?

So what are doing all those designers when with those changes we are better that they. We have better know-how?. Certainly not.

What is happening about has no real sense and something is wrong down there.
It’s not as @grannyring posted: "" try Wima on your own folks """ but to make an effort to understand the subject facts not " I like it " because normally what we like it is wrong or could be wrong but just does not cares us but MUSIC is to valuable to stay " static " and degrading it each time with those caps, fuses, resistors and the like " boutique " parts.
Yes, I know that we love those " colorations/distortions " that does not came in the recording.

@jasbirnandra the caps you can use all over your electronics or speakers can be these ones that I use instead of Cu teflon Vcaps I was using:

https://www.wima.de/en/our-product-range/pulse-capacitors/fkp-1/

or and alternative in speakers crossovers due that has a wider uf range than the Wima and are very good too:

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/viewer.html?pdfurl=https%3A%2F%2Fcontent.kemet.com%2Fdatasheets%2FKEM_F3118_R76H.pdf&clen=1380003

Ovbiously both with radial short leads.


R.

Let’s all just enjoy what we have found that works for our ears and music. No need to argue. I am happy for Raul.  He has found what works for him and that is great.  I tried Wima based on his experiences and did not like them. I did try them however in a crossover as I am always open to learning.  Enjoy Raul and my fellow DIYers.  Have fun!

Dear @grannyring :  ""    what we have found that works for our ears and music. No need to argue. I am happy for Raul.  He has found what works for him and that is great...""

Well, one thing is that works for your ears and other way different that works too for MUSIC as comes in the recording. As in my thread you never posted and post true evidence/facts/measures for your " wonderful " caps that even in its manufacturer sites exist nothing that works as real foundation for your words.

Do you think that the Lamm owners are unhappy with their electronics? certainly not because in the Agon ads under preamps are around 200 units and no single Lamm.

Btw, in this overall cap subject is unimportant what we like it but what should be or must be:

THAT OUR ROOM/SYSTEM  PERFORMS AS NEARER TO THE RECORDING AS WE CAN ACHIEVE.

Obviously that you have a way different target. That's my main target and you know what: when you are near to achieve it not only you will like what you are listening but you will fall in love with because for the first time in your room/system you are truly listening to MUSIC not a colored/degraded presentation.

Of course that even that some day we can achieve that target we will stay still away from a Live MUSIC reference.

""  I am happy for Raul. "" come on. Other gentleman acuse me to be condescendent, I'm not  and I want to let you now that sincerely I'm sad for you but more for MUSIC reproduction in your room/system with that: "   works for our ears ..". 

Seems to me that unfortunated the real characteristics of MUSIC listen it at near field position are almost unknow for you or have a misunderstood about.

Anyway, my point is to help the OP ( as always. ) not if you agree or not. He has the rigth to read/know a different approach in favor of MUSIC.An approach that unfortunate goes against all of your opinions, that's unanimous .

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Yes.  All good.  Agree with you.  The OP should hear all opinions. 

So if a listener actually compared the Duelund CAST, VH ODAM  and Wima capacitors and having heard them (In his components/audio system) found the Wima the least impressive he is wrong and misguided?

Wima is the only correct choice ? The other two capacitors are merely flawed, inferior, colored and distorted? It is totally irrelevant if the listener prefers the sound quality of the CAST or ODAM ? This preference is simply borne out of ignorance and lack of understanding? Yet this attitude is not condescending? Okay I get it. Someone needs access to a dictionary.

@pauly you had it right. So much for my extending "benefit of the doubt".
Charles

+1 @charles1dad

Some people are simply not worth interacting with. 

"Some people are simply not worth interacting with"

@pauly, right again.  It is a pointless endeavor I have to admit.
Charles 

Ugh. I’ve seen this on several other threads —people attacking capacitor upgrades in a high handed manner. 
I purchased a certain budget preamp that allows capacitor rolling with built in binding posts for caps on both output coupling and gain stages. It is $1k new abs I got it for about $600 used.  You can swap caps in a moment (once you discharge them safely). I bought this thing because it was easier than building something like it. 
I don’t need Raul to tell me anything. I’ve heard the sonic differences in caps.  Wima  are fine caps that do a decent job and meet spec. But they do not come close to things like VCap.  
Yes they are pricey things. A pair of great caps can set you back several hundred bucks. But the sonic differences are easily audible —more so TO MY EARS than a power cable, for example.  
While it’s true that some manufacturers just  use Wima or other decent caps, it’s also true that many do not. 
It’s also true to my ears that a decent 6 or 12 volt reissue preamp tube can sound great and quiet. So many get a bad rap yet manufacturers use them all the time. And it’s also true that some NOS tubes can sound magical and just better. It’s not practical to source them when building to a price point.   
Thanks to Granny and Charles for keeping decorum and encouraging folks to listen for themselves. 

@jbhiller,
The lack of even a modicum of self awareness to recognize the level of patronizing behavior on display  is stunning.
Charles 

I'm generally skeptical when anyone claims objective superiority for any particular piece of audio equipment or part. So, Raul claims Wima is the most superior cap for any use. And now it appears claims Odam is most superior cap for any use. While I remain skeptical to this claim, I'm willing to be open minded.
So, why would the Odam be the go to cap for every situation? Some claim it sounds like no capacitor, perhaps that's a good thing, perhaps not. If it has no sound may expose other parts in circuit, may not be a good thing. I want my caps to have a sound signature, obtaining pleasing sound signature requires recipe of different flavorings. As far as other parameters of sound quality, such as transparency, resolution, more should be better.
Hard for me to believe odam has no sound signature, never heard a single parts replacement or wire/cable that didn't have some sound signature. And if it has a sound signature may not be best cap for all situations. Perhaps natural would be descriptor I could better understand, even with all the baggage that term invokes.

Dear @jasbirnandra  : This is the Vishay alternative to Wima and Kemet:

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/viewer.html?pdfurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.vishay.com%2Fdocs%2F28173%2Fmkp383.pdf&clen=164592&chunk=true

R.