@shutupuface, Here's a ST70 from Bob Latino of VTA. It is an updated/upgraded all new ST-70 with an Attenuator so it doesn't need a preamp if you only have one source The attenuator is an option. I have this amp. It replaced a very highly praised SS amp. I used it for years with a SS preamp and it sounded great. Using it with my new CJ CT5 is even better. He also sells a 60wpc at a higher price but still a bargain. You can get these fully assembled or kit form. http://www.tubes4hifi.com/bob.htm#ST70 |
Read thru this thread and didn't see this anywhere so I thought I'd add
my 2c. Old tube amps like the Dynaco generally sound more "syrupy" and
warm than good modern tube power amps If properly refurbished this is not the case. |
For a new unit within the budget look at the Muzishare X7 its an integrated , made in the same factory as line magnetic. Can get the upgraded cap version for 1100$ roughly listed on amazon and ebay.
Pre owned I'd look at a Rogue Cronus magnum less tubes to replace than some of the other units out there. |
True Black ice gear has the New Fosgste designed circuit and tube bias adjustment meters noticably better and not much more $$ |
Read thru this thread and didn't see this anywhere so I thought I'd add my 2c. Old tube amps like the Dynaco generally sound more "syrupy" and warm than good modern tube power amps like the Rogue CM. Old Dynacos, Conrad Johnson, Mac's, Scott's are wonderful for tube warmth but often have tubby bass but good midrange. If that is the sound signature in your mind then old or vintage is more likely your goal. I recently heard an upgraded Dynaco 35. I liked it a lot as I like the old tube sound. Same for a Scott 299c, great but low power. Heard a Rogue. Nice amp only sort of tubey to my ears. 8f you can, maybe try to audition some gear. Btw, I used an old Conrad Johnson pv10 tube preamp with various ss power amps for a couple of years. Got probably 80% of the tube magic for 2 years. Before that a pv5 was even more old school syrupy tube warmth. If your Yamaha allows for a pre that is a good option. |
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Yaqin mc13s integrated for about $725, or Yaqin mc 300 b integrated for $999, both available on Amazon. Then join the Yaqin group on Facebook! Great bunch of knowledgeable guys. |
Absolutely Rogue--wonderful stuff.
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I recently received a few emails from Roger Modjeski about his RM-10 tube amp. Both the original and Mk.2 versions of the amp are rated at 35 watts/ch, but the first 15 of those watts are produced with the amp operating in Class A. The current version (still identified as Mk.2) is rated at 25 watts/ch, the amp now operating in Class A to full power. So, if a loudspeaker is sensitive enough to draw only 15 watts, the older versions of the amp will be providing it with Class A sound (pun intentional ;-) . |
I'll pile on to the Jolida recommendation. I've used a 502brc (60 watt) for a long time and it sounds great with my Snell Type D (~87db sens.). Has some nice tube warmth but not too much. More than enough power unless you want concert level rock or metal. Basically plug and play, easy to bias. Paid $700 used maybe 10-11 yrs ago. Unfortunately, don't see them around much anymore. |
cayin
everyone here knows, i am cayin's biggest fan. So I;m going with Cayin. Now as to which intergrated,,,thats your choice,,I can tell you the MT35 is too small for your Advents. maybe start cking the MT45, work your way up. whatever you can afford.
what is your budget? |
What about a deHavilland ultraverve tube preamp serving a good solid state amp. I have the Ultraverve preamp and a Bryston power amp. Wonderful depth and tone with no harshness or digital coldness. |
+1 for the Rogue . Also for Dynaco , but I’d opt for the Bob Latino ST-120. This amp will handle KT-120’s , but you won’t need that much power . Between Rogue , Dynaco , or whatever , run NOS driver and modern power tubes . Also your Yamaha has Pre Outs. With just an extra pair of RCA’s you could place a tube amp on the Yamaha and still use your phono input and tone controls . I did this with a vintage Marantz receiver ahead of a pair of Dynakit MK III’s. Worked fairly well , but I was just experimenting. Also personally , I’ve enjoyed a quiet SS pre ahead of a tube amp more than a tube pre ahead of a SS amp . However there are many great combinations that way too , just my personal experience. I had the small Advents , not the large . I drove them with a little Dynaco SCA-35 and it was SWEET ! I then turned left and ran JBL L-26’s and ventured down JBL Avenue, never to return to Advent . But the JBL’s are hard and edgy and take tons of power . So don’t go there . Cherish your stuff ( wish I still had mine to enjoy . BTW, I gave 3 old systems to my kids , #1 Sansui 9090/JBL4312/Schiit DAC, #2 Sansui 7070/ Klipsch Heresy II’s/ Schiit DAC, #3 Marantz 2223/Klipsch Kg 1.5’s/ Pioneer PL117 TT. I traded my Dynakit modded MKI III’s for a heavily modded Thorens TD 116 MK II with a Sumiko . And I live with just a 12 WPC Had Inspire 😝. Cheers and happy listening , Mike . |
You can buy for cheap old counterpoint SA-12 or SA-100 hybrid amps and even get an SA-1000 or SA-2000 preamp to match for around $1K on eBay. PLUS they can be upgraded to compete with some current models amps today when you are ready.
Happy Listening. |
While I'm more in the Bowmore camp than Ardbeg, they're not world's apart at all. Very cool.
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We definitely agree on the Islay.
Best I ever had was a 30 year old Ardbeg distilled in 1972.
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I greatly prefer a good single malt, hopefully an isle of Islay, to Welch's and ethanol.
At least I think I do.
I've never tried the latter.
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Old iron IS better than new iron. Old iron is frequently cheaper than new iron. Quad II sounds much better than Citation II I never thought so, but I don’t like Welch’s & ethanol either. IMO, the CII is more coherent from the low mids on down while the QII were somewhat confused in the systems in which I heard them. In tube sound, the warmth you like is supplied most by a tube preamp. No it’s not. In all cases, the entire system contributes to the final sound. A nice tube preamp is not going to help a system with a Zippo 250 SS amp and EarBleed speakers wired with HFXtreme cables. A tube amp may be more/less intolerant of cable/LS. Systems are built with ’recipes’, all little of this, all little of that to achieve a good balance and just like pudding is all in the eating, amps are all in the hearing. |
Lots of good advice here. Try to learn from it. In tube sound, the warmth you like is supplied most by a tube preamp. So you could get a tube preamp into Solid state amp (there are a lot of them, used available) I’d think of some of the Pass designs like the Adcom 555. I started into the ‘tube’ sound with a used Audible Illusions PreAmp, still made new and with many used ones available in your budget range.
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Old iron IS better than new iron.
Not that it specs better or anything like that, you just can get old iron for a lot less than new iron and almost without exception transformers are well made. That's the most expensive part of an amp and manufacturers pretty much always made sure that if they were going to tool up a transformer, they did it right. Yes, good design is good design and transformer design has been optimized for years.
For what it's worth, Quad II sounds much better than Citation II.I have three Citation II here right now and that pentode input stage is for the birds. The Citation transformers though are sublime. Properly rebuilt they are a revelation. Bruce Moore for instance gutted many a Citation II with just that in mind.
Yes, tube rolling, just like cable rolling or fuse rolling is basically an exercise in the imaginary side of the hobby...
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Hogwash!
Old iron is no better than new iron. A good design is a good design.
A great 60W KT-88 amp is a Citation II, but they are pricy.
Lots of old vintage stuff is in need of a complete rebuild, not just capacitors.
Tube rolling is silly. Get something that sounds well and be done with it.
Just enjoy the music!
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There’s some good advice already here so I’ll just add this. The comment about good transformers is key, and old iron can’t be beat. Go vintage, but get something with the power supply caps redone unless you can do it yourself. That’s easy with point to point wiring in vintage equipment. Use vintage tubes.
Don’t spend a lot. Start with an integrated to see if you like “the tube sound”. One of the best you could do here is a Scott 299C. It was my introduction to tubes and changed the way I heard music. I had a $$$ surround rig and after hearing the 299C it was game on.. But beware, tube amplifier collecting is addictive.
Move on to a good tube preamp and power amp. Here I like some of the newer preamps, but stay with vintage power. I have plenty of both but my favs are my Wright 6SN7 based preamp and Quad II power amps. The Wright has open architecture that makes for easy tube rolling, which you will become addicted to. KT66 power amps like the Quad II’s are a good choice, smooth and neutral. A lot of the Dynaco power amps that have been modded also fit the bill.
Going tube is a journey, deeper than the solid state road. Enjoy. |
Don't overthink it. Look for something that you can sell for about what you pay. Don't consider anything glittery and new that will drop in value overnight. Regardless of what you hear on these forums, sound quality has not had the quantum jump that some would lead you to believe.
When I had Big advents, many years ago, my Marantz 8B had way more power than necessary. That's a 35 watt a side EL34 unit that's a collectible legend of relatively undistinguished sonics. I've had a couple of those and Model 5's. Great look but way overvalued.
Honestly, my Dynaco ST-35 was a fine match for those speakers. You can find a modestly priced 20wpc unit of some strip pretty easily used. Those that have suggested a mid-priced tube integrated are giving you good advice. Don't jump into the deep end of decreasing returns. A good integrated should give you the essence of what you're looking for.
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Thanks, for the advice armstrod! I really appreciate it!
Best regards,
Rob
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I owned Large Advents for 20+ years and used them with a variety of SS and tube amps. My experience is this:
1) If you've never upgraded the crossovers, this is the place to start. There are way better components available now than when HK designed those speakers, and it's drop dead easy to do the upgrade. You'll be amazed at the difference.
2) Large Advents need at least 30W/ch if you play them at any volume above background. So while I love and own Decware, only the Torii Jr and above will work, and that's out of your budget.
3) The ST70 or its variants is a perfectly good choice, but you'll need a preamp. As the CR1020 has preamp outs, it would work fine. My first tube amp was an ST70, and I used the preamp section of my NAD 7140 to drive it. You can move up to a dedicated preamp if you like the direction you're heading.
4) If I was in your position today, I'd get the Rogue Cronus in a hot minute. It's a quality unit and will enable you to get a taste of tubes at a very low cost and if you don't like it, you can resell it at very little loss.
Have fun with this! I eventually sold my Advents for more than I paid for them, and that was after 20+ years of enjoyment. Good luck on your journey!
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Anyone have an opinion on the Jolida 6802?
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Thanks for your input "firberger"
Best regards,
Rob |
Don’t throw out the ST-70 idea just yet . I loved them as well in the 70’s when a couple of college friends had them and I didn’t. There are a number of good options mentioned above for both Tubes Amps and Tube Integrated. I decided on a used Ultra-valve and could not be happier . Frank Van Alstine is a gem to speak with as well . The idea of building one ( as easy as it sounds) or rebuilding an older one just didn’t appeal to me as unfortunately most of my electrical projects have ended up with a number of do-overs . I am sure I would have said the same positive comments if I bought the RM-10 or a Will Vincent model . All wonderful sounding AMPS that wont break the budget and can be worked on if there is a problem by any number of technicians. Parts are readily available. I also have a Rogue - solid state as an alternate that sounds completely different and I like it to.
I rotate speakers that have all sounded very good with the ST-70 clone . Crites updated Klipsch Heresy 1’s, B&W 602 v3 and Sonus Faber Concerto’s . All reasonably priced and sound very different from one another . All bought second hand and most on AGON . Many great people here on the forum and a number with harsh opinions.
As long as what you purchase is working properly and in good condition it will sound wonderful . Maybe you will head down the path many of us have with seeking constant upgrades. Some of which aren’t actually upgrades to our ears based on the system we put them in.
Through experience I have found cables are a tough road and certainly can make a big difference. So does your power source. Make sure your vinyl is clean and your stylus is fresh . Sit back and enjoy the music.
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Ok, in response to "bdp24", I appreciate you being brutally honest! So, yes, in some respects I DO want to see what all the fuss is about. Having known a couple of friends who had the old Dynaco ST70's back in the day, along with the Macs, I was really impressed by the sound. However, not having the funds to go that way, I went the way of SS amps: I've owned the old Scott, Marantz, Pioneer, and Yamaha. The CR 1020 is the current SS amp I currently own. I currently own a pair of Bose 601bookshlef (4 ohms), a pair of Large Advents (8 ohms), and a pair of Fisher STV-880 (8 ohms) floor standing speakers. All of which have been re-coned and, in the case of the Advents, the cross-overs and caps redone. As some of you "old guys" may know, the older SS amps could run (2) sets of speakers at the same time. In that regard, the Fishers complement the Large Advents. (maybe, the other speakers I have will "play" better with a tube amp?) Thoughts??
That all being said, it still lacks the "warmth" of what I remember tubes bring into the picture. So, thanks to so many of you who have offered your time and knowledge, I am attempting to learn "the way of the tubes". lol Now, because of you all, I realize that the ST 70 is not the way to go for me as there are better models out there even in the "budget" realm.
So, for those of you who have "been there-done that", I welcome the comments. bdp24 also mentioned that maybe a tube pre-amp might work with my current SS Yamaha?? Thoughts??
Now, I know I am going to probably open a big can of worms on the next subject. But, once again, I am totally ignorant about the subject:
" interconnects" I've read where people are spending major $$ on them. "Back in the day", the only "interconnects" I knew about were RCA cables. So, now at 65, I don't think I need another SS amp.And, I'm willing to humble myself and learn. But, maybe "with a little help from my friends", I can explore this avenue without, (as clhs04 stated) "
ensure complete compatibility vs going the amp-pre-amp experimentation route where negotiating the learning curve could become costly!" Again, many thanks!
Best regards,
Rob
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Another Jolida recommendation. I just bought a Jolida SJ-302a a couple of weeks ago. It's integrated, puts out 50 wpc, and was only $450 from my local dealer, who had taken it in from an estate sale. The drawbacks - it's not auto biased, but that's easy to do, it's about 25 years old, and it has no remote, but it sounds wonderful, and cost less than $500 including tax. I noticed a very obvious difference with my similar vintage Chapman t7 speakers moving to this amp from solid state. |
Number one..resign yourself to a tube integrated (keep it simple) and be ensured complete compatibility vs going the amp-preamp experimentation route where negotiating the learning curve could become costly!
for your Advents I would pass on the Rogue ..why shoot a mouse with an elephant gun?
I suggest finding a clean used Line Magnetic EL-34 based integrated and its in your budget. |
All right, let me be brutally honest. What is it you think a tube amp is going to give you (or do you just want to try one to see what all the "fuss" is about?). Did you get the Advents with a tube amp in mind? I ask because there are better old speakers to mate with a tube amp than the Advent. The Advent isn’t (by current standards) particularly transparent, and is on the warm side of neutral (imo). A tube amp of the old-fashioned, classic type (Dynaco, for one) won’t help matters (inexpensive tube amps---the RM-10 being the rare exception---tend to error likewise. The Advent was designed to be powered by a solid state amp, with a low output impedance.). Maybe a modest tube pre-amp (with your budget, look at the Schitt Saga +) and a decent medium-powered solid state power amp (used Parasound A23?) would be the way to go. But I say that as one ignorant about current integrateds. Separate power amps are almost all superior to the amp section of integrateds (imo), especially at the $1,000 level. Too bad the NAD 3020 is underpowered! |
I also love Decware, but I have only owned (still own 2) of their low WPC amps and those low WPC amps wouldn't drive those speakers as well as PrimaLuna in my experience. I know they make some higher power ones. |
Pick a used PrimaLuna integrated that’s at the top end of your price range (I do think they improve up model, so pay for what you can afford). They are a great gateway drug into tubes and they can drive fairly difficult loads, and certainly medium difficult ones. You may never go back to solid state. I still own 2. |
check out decware.com - made in Joliet, IL. Top quality sound, build and service. |
Many thanks for all the input. I may be leaning to a USED integrated Jolida or Prima Luna depending on the price. I've gotten some input regarding not sure if a 35 WPC integrated tube amp will push the Large Advent I have. All input is welcome!
Best regards,
Rob
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Second for good value with Jolida/Black Ice. I have Jolida separates and they sound great and were an excellent value. I also have an older Jolida integrated amp but it needs some relatively expensive repairs so it sits in my basement. |
The RM10 gets rave reviews, but it is a power amp so you will need a preamp. A passive may work, but if not you’ll need to add an active preamp. In both scenarios you’ll also need to audition and purchase interconnects.
For your first foray into tubes, I suggest you go for an integrated. As far as unrefined sound goes, that can usually be treated by rolling in different tubes.
Have you looked at a used PrimaLuna? They present the warmth that you liked from the Dynaco.
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Never heard the RM10 but really enjoy el84's! 35 is a lot of watts to ask of those little tubes - really cool! |
In the tube friendly setups I've had without a doubt. I found the Cronus ballsy but unrefined and not quite 20/20 vision in comparison. Perhaps for the Advents the Cronus would be the ticket - it's a tricky sport good luck out there |
So if I understand you correctly, are you saying that the RM10 is much better than the Cronus Magnum?Thanks, alot for your imput!
Best regards,
Rob
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x2 bdp24....I've owned an assortment of tube amps including the Rogue Cronus Magnum and the RM10 like bdp24 just scored here is so superior it's not fair to compare the 2 - if the amount of power suits your setup. Don't let the low price fool you - it could be your last amp as it's probably mine with no regrets. The better your speakers get the better it sounds |
Dynaco made an amp called the MkIII that was a 60 watt monoblock. This turned out to be a good amount of power for the original Advent. You can still buy the MkIII as a kit (looks like this is for one channel): http://www.triodeelectronics.com/trmk3tuampki.html |
Many thanks for the info!
Best regards
Rob
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Rob, one way to go is to get the best power amp your money will buy, and put a passive "pre" in front of it. If your source output impedances are low enough, their output voltage high enough, your inter-connects short enough (more specifically, their total capacitance low enough), and the power amp’s input sensitivity and impedance high enough (the MR RM-10’s sensitivity is under a volt, it’s input impedance 100k Ohms, both making for an ideal candidate for a passive pre), you should be good to go. No matter what amp you decide to go with, there is a great detailed description of what went into the design of the RM-10 on the Music Reference website. In reading it, you will get some insight into the choices an amplifier designer is faced with, things that don’t get talked about much: why a low impedance power supply is of benefit to a circuit, why "over-rated" parts are a real good idea (learned during Roger’s youth, when he started building amps in his family’s basement, his 3 years as a repair technician in a Virginia hi-fi shop, and as Chief Engineer at Beveridge), factors that go into the design and construction of a transformer (which has a profound effect on the sound of an amp), factors that effect tube life, not to mention what is involved in getting a tube to operate in it’s most linear range. Good stuff! In a private email, you asked me about current solid state amps. About them I can be of no help, having only old ones (Electron Kinetics Eagle 2A, PS Audio 200C) myself. The only modern ss amp I find intriguing is the Sanders Magtech, which is way over your budget. What I can say is that given the Advent's impedance characteristics, and it's low sensitivity, I think you'll find a ss amp to be a better match than a tube one. Just one opinion. In the early issues of The Absolute Sound, Harry & co. were using a Phase Linear 700 on their Advents. |
Jolida (or Black Ice as they're now weirdly named) makes great integrated tube amps...inexpensive new, and a can be very inexpensive used. |
Just to be clear, in case you're considering Dynaco, their kits are designed to be easily built even with no skill or knowledge. All you need is a soldering pen and something to cut and strip wire. They are great for what they are, but tend to agree with bdp24 that you can in general do better, maybe even for the money. Dynaco are still good, just not the stone bargain they were back in the day when there was a lot less competition for affordable good sounding gear.
You really will want to stay with integrateds and away from separates. Big thing the people pushing separates never mention is they cannot compete with integrateds, not even close, without a really good interconnect, and an extra power cord or two. Separates make no sense, value-wise, even when the budget is huge. My system is pushing $100k and I wouldn't dream of separates. Waste of money! Some guys seem to be made of it. So watch out.
Since you're new to tube gear there's a few features to be aware of and watch for. Tubes are all biased, a small current that improves linearity. Some amps bias is automatic, others you have to set yourself. Its not a big deal, usually turn a screw or knob while looking at a meter, and doesn't have to be done often. But you do need to do this.
Some amps run only one tube type, like say KT88, others you can use different tubes like KT88 & 6550C. While there are indeed differences between different tubes like this, and even between different brands of the same tube, still these differences are relatively small compared to the difference between different amps. Transformers have probably the greatest impact on sound, point to point wiring and design next, then tube type, and finally tube brand. Keep this in mind and it will help shopping and making sense of reviews.
Now all that said I would second and third the guys pointing you at the Rogue Cronus Magnum above. Ticks all the boxes, and then some, and close enough to your budget to be worth the stretch even if you can't quite get him down there. Good luck! |
Another option would be a hybrid integrated , solid state power with tube preamp section
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I'll recommend a used decware amplifier. |
Why are there so many Cronus Magnums for sale? Many are the latest version and nearly new. |
