Which Advent speakers do you have? Is there a reason you want a tube amp? Many Advents aren't particularly efficient and take some watts to drive. Just worried that you may not be able to achieve your sonic goals of good bass with a budget tube amp.
Budget Tube Amp (newbie)
I'm new to tube amps. I need some advice as to a good budget tube amp with good bass that will push my large Advent speakers. Please keep in mind that I don't know anything about tube amps and don't want to pull the trigger until I can get some advice. I'm new to the Forum. Many thanks from an old guy.
Best regards,
Rob
Best regards,
Rob
67 responses Add your response
I have the Large Advents (circa 1975) rebuilt. And am currently using a vintage Yamaha CR 1020 receiver which is rated @ 70wpc. Along with my Dual 1229 turntable puts out plenty of volume. As to answer your question regarding "why"? Well, I have always liked the pure, warm, sound that my friend's Dynaco ST- 70. However, didn't have the electrical savvy to build my own. |
Okay well it takes precisely zero electrical knowledge to build a Dynaco. I would know, having built an ST400 as a teenager who was pretty sure electricity travels through wires. An old refurbished Dynaco would be one candidate. Another would be a Melody integrated, which is what I have now, no longer made but reliable and probably under $1k if you can find one. Aside from specific amps, some general info it will help to keep in mind. Solid state watts are not equal to tube watts. Two different tube amps, 50-60 watts, drove my speakers just as well as a McCormack DNA-1 which is 150 solid state watts. Everyone focuses on the tubes, when the reality of tube amps is a lot of the sound quality you get comes from the transformers. So if you find one you really like don't be put off by the tubes it runs, but go by the sound quality. That said, KT88 tubes tend to be really neutral and smooth, 6550 are a little less smooth, and EL34 have about as good a midrange as you will ever find. All of these can have really good bass, and extended treble too, it just depends on the amp design and transformer. So between the high power you don't need and the high price you don't want this means you should be looking at integrated tube amps 50-60 watts or so. You do not need more power. You do not want separates. There are a lot of really great integrateds ranging from about $5k for a new Prima Luna (outstanding if you can swing it) down to whatever you can find, say something like this- https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9hf6f-jas-bravo-2-3-integrated-tube-amplifier-tube Which might seem not enough power but probably will be fine and sounds like a pretty sweet little amp for the money. |
There's a Rogue Cronus Magnum integrated on the classifieds right now listed for $1175. You could make an offer. With 100 watts this will have zero issues giving you enough power. No affiliation. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9hiee-rogue-audio-cronus-magnum-integrated-amplifier-silver-tube |
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Though I think a good ss amp would be better for the Advents, if you insist on a tube one, and you're patient, you can get yourself a much better amp than a Dynaco Stereo 70, for around the same price. I've had a stock ST70, a modified one (ala Frank Van Alstine), and now have what I recommend you look for instead: a Music Reference RM-10 Mk.2. Same power as the ST70 (35w/ch into 8 ohms, from a pair of EL84's per channel), but better designed, better built (hard-wired point-to-point, state-of-the-art transformers), and better sounding. Occasionally available second hand for $1200-$1500. |
Upscale Audio has some nice used tube integrateds. https://www.upscaleaudio.com/collections/amplifiers-specials Ditto The Music Room https://tmraudio.com/components/integrated-amplifiers/ Also US Audio Mart - Tube Integrateds https://www.usaudiomart.com/search.php?keywords=&cat_id=55&price_min=&price_max=&typ... I have a PrimaLuna PL5 power amp which drives my 84db/W Spicas to almost as loud as I ever want I also have a pair of tubes4hifi M-125. Their amp kits are great value and lovely sounding amps, but I wish I'd built them myself. HOWEVER, we I you, I would first investigate upgrading the crossover caps in the Advents. |
Just to be clear, in case you're considering Dynaco, their kits are designed to be easily built even with no skill or knowledge. All you need is a soldering pen and something to cut and strip wire. They are great for what they are, but tend to agree with bdp24 that you can in general do better, maybe even for the money. Dynaco are still good, just not the stone bargain they were back in the day when there was a lot less competition for affordable good sounding gear. You really will want to stay with integrateds and away from separates. Big thing the people pushing separates never mention is they cannot compete with integrateds, not even close, without a really good interconnect, and an extra power cord or two. Separates make no sense, value-wise, even when the budget is huge. My system is pushing $100k and I wouldn't dream of separates. Waste of money! Some guys seem to be made of it. So watch out. Since you're new to tube gear there's a few features to be aware of and watch for. Tubes are all biased, a small current that improves linearity. Some amps bias is automatic, others you have to set yourself. Its not a big deal, usually turn a screw or knob while looking at a meter, and doesn't have to be done often. But you do need to do this. Some amps run only one tube type, like say KT88, others you can use different tubes like KT88 & 6550C. While there are indeed differences between different tubes like this, and even between different brands of the same tube, still these differences are relatively small compared to the difference between different amps. Transformers have probably the greatest impact on sound, point to point wiring and design next, then tube type, and finally tube brand. Keep this in mind and it will help shopping and making sense of reviews. Now all that said I would second and third the guys pointing you at the Rogue Cronus Magnum above. Ticks all the boxes, and then some, and close enough to your budget to be worth the stretch even if you can't quite get him down there. Good luck! |
Rob, one way to go is to get the best power amp your money will buy, and put a passive "pre" in front of it. If your source output impedances are low enough, their output voltage high enough, your inter-connects short enough (more specifically, their total capacitance low enough), and the power amp’s input sensitivity and impedance high enough (the MR RM-10’s sensitivity is under a volt, it’s input impedance 100k Ohms, both making for an ideal candidate for a passive pre), you should be good to go. No matter what amp you decide to go with, there is a great detailed description of what went into the design of the RM-10 on the Music Reference website. In reading it, you will get some insight into the choices an amplifier designer is faced with, things that don’t get talked about much: why a low impedance power supply is of benefit to a circuit, why "over-rated" parts are a real good idea (learned during Roger’s youth, when he started building amps in his family’s basement, his 3 years as a repair technician in a Virginia hi-fi shop, and as Chief Engineer at Beveridge), factors that go into the design and construction of a transformer (which has a profound effect on the sound of an amp), factors that effect tube life, not to mention what is involved in getting a tube to operate in it’s most linear range. Good stuff! In a private email, you asked me about current solid state amps. About them I can be of no help, having only old ones (Electron Kinetics Eagle 2A, PS Audio 200C) myself. The only modern ss amp I find intriguing is the Sanders Magtech, which is way over your budget. What I can say is that given the Advent's impedance characteristics, and it's low sensitivity, I think you'll find a ss amp to be a better match than a tube one. Just one opinion. In the early issues of The Absolute Sound, Harry & co. were using a Phase Linear 700 on their Advents. |
Dynaco made an amp called the MkIII that was a 60 watt monoblock. This turned out to be a good amount of power for the original Advent. You can still buy the MkIII as a kit (looks like this is for one channel): http://www.triodeelectronics.com/trmk3tuampki.html |
x2 bdp24....I've owned an assortment of tube amps including the Rogue Cronus Magnum and the RM10 like bdp24 just scored here is so superior it's not fair to compare the 2 - if the amount of power suits your setup. Don't let the low price fool you - it could be your last amp as it's probably mine with no regrets. The better your speakers get the better it sounds |
The RM10 gets rave reviews, but it is a power amp so you will need a preamp. A passive may work, but if not you’ll need to add an active preamp. In both scenarios you’ll also need to audition and purchase interconnects. For your first foray into tubes, I suggest you go for an integrated. As far as unrefined sound goes, that can usually be treated by rolling in different tubes. Have you looked at a used PrimaLuna? They present the warmth that you liked from the Dynaco. |
Pick a used PrimaLuna integrated that’s at the top end of your price range (I do think they improve up model, so pay for what you can afford). They are a great gateway drug into tubes and they can drive fairly difficult loads, and certainly medium difficult ones. You may never go back to solid state. I still own 2. |
All right, let me be brutally honest. What is it you think a tube amp is going to give you (or do you just want to try one to see what all the "fuss" is about?). Did you get the Advents with a tube amp in mind? I ask because there are better old speakers to mate with a tube amp than the Advent. The Advent isn’t (by current standards) particularly transparent, and is on the warm side of neutral (imo). A tube amp of the old-fashioned, classic type (Dynaco, for one) won’t help matters (inexpensive tube amps---the RM-10 being the rare exception---tend to error likewise. The Advent was designed to be powered by a solid state amp, with a low output impedance.). Maybe a modest tube pre-amp (with your budget, look at the Schitt Saga +) and a decent medium-powered solid state power amp (used Parasound A23?) would be the way to go. But I say that as one ignorant about current integrateds. Separate power amps are almost all superior to the amp section of integrateds (imo), especially at the $1,000 level. Too bad the NAD 3020 is underpowered! |
Number one..resign yourself to a tube integrated (keep it simple) and be ensured complete compatibility vs going the amp-preamp experimentation route where negotiating the learning curve could become costly! for your Advents I would pass on the Rogue ..why shoot a mouse with an elephant gun? I suggest finding a clean used Line Magnetic EL-34 based integrated and its in your budget. |
Another Jolida recommendation. I just bought a Jolida SJ-302a a couple of weeks ago. It's integrated, puts out 50 wpc, and was only $450 from my local dealer, who had taken it in from an estate sale. The drawbacks - it's not auto biased, but that's easy to do, it's about 25 years old, and it has no remote, but it sounds wonderful, and cost less than $500 including tax. I noticed a very obvious difference with my similar vintage Chapman t7 speakers moving to this amp from solid state. |
Ok, in response to "bdp24", I appreciate you being brutally honest! So, yes, in some respects I DO want to see what all the fuss is about. Having known a couple of friends who had the old Dynaco ST70's back in the day, along with the Macs, I was really impressed by the sound. However, not having the funds to go that way, I went the way of SS amps: I've owned the old Scott, Marantz, Pioneer, and Yamaha. The CR 1020 is the current SS amp I currently own. I currently own a pair of Bose 601bookshlef (4 ohms), a pair of Large Advents (8 ohms), and a pair of Fisher STV-880 (8 ohms) floor standing speakers. All of which have been re-coned and, in the case of the Advents, the cross-overs and caps redone. As some of you "old guys" may know, the older SS amps could run (2) sets of speakers at the same time. In that regard, the Fishers complement the Large Advents. (maybe, the other speakers I have will "play" better with a tube amp?) Thoughts?? That all being said, it still lacks the "warmth" of what I remember tubes bring into the picture. So, thanks to so many of you who have offered your time and knowledge, I am attempting to learn "the way of the tubes". lol Now, because of you all, I realize that the ST 70 is not the way to go for me as there are better models out there even in the "budget" realm. So, for those of you who have "been there-done that", I welcome the comments. bdp24 also mentioned that maybe a tube pre-amp might work with my current SS Yamaha?? Thoughts?? Now, I know I am going to probably open a big can of worms on the next subject. But, once again, I am totally ignorant about the subject: " interconnects" I've read where people are spending major $$ on them. "Back in the day", the only "interconnects" I knew about were RCA cables. So, now at 65, I don't think I need another SS amp.And, I'm willing to humble myself and learn. But, maybe "with a little help from my friends", I can explore this avenue without, (as clhs04 stated) " ensure complete compatibility vs going the amp-pre-amp experimentation route where negotiating the learning curve could become costly!" Again, many thanks! Best regards, Rob |
Don’t throw out the ST-70 idea just yet . I loved them as well in the 70’s when a couple of college friends had them and I didn’t. There are a number of good options mentioned above for both Tubes Amps and Tube Integrated. I decided on a used Ultra-valve and could not be happier . Frank Van Alstine is a gem to speak with as well . The idea of building one ( as easy as it sounds) or rebuilding an older one just didn’t appeal to me as unfortunately most of my electrical projects have ended up with a number of do-overs . I am sure I would have said the same positive comments if I bought the RM-10 or a Will Vincent model . All wonderful sounding AMPS that wont break the budget and can be worked on if there is a problem by any number of technicians. Parts are readily available. I also have a Rogue - solid state as an alternate that sounds completely different and I like it to. I rotate speakers that have all sounded very good with the ST-70 clone . Crites updated Klipsch Heresy 1’s, B&W 602 v3 and Sonus Faber Concerto’s . All reasonably priced and sound very different from one another . All bought second hand and most on AGON . Many great people here on the forum and a number with harsh opinions. As long as what you purchase is working properly and in good condition it will sound wonderful . Maybe you will head down the path many of us have with seeking constant upgrades. Some of which aren’t actually upgrades to our ears based on the system we put them in. Through experience I have found cables are a tough road and certainly can make a big difference. So does your power source. Make sure your vinyl is clean and your stylus is fresh . Sit back and enjoy the music. |
I owned Large Advents for 20+ years and used them with a variety of SS and tube amps. My experience is this: 1) If you've never upgraded the crossovers, this is the place to start. There are way better components available now than when HK designed those speakers, and it's drop dead easy to do the upgrade. You'll be amazed at the difference. 2) Large Advents need at least 30W/ch if you play them at any volume above background. So while I love and own Decware, only the Torii Jr and above will work, and that's out of your budget. 3) The ST70 or its variants is a perfectly good choice, but you'll need a preamp. As the CR1020 has preamp outs, it would work fine. My first tube amp was an ST70, and I used the preamp section of my NAD 7140 to drive it. You can move up to a dedicated preamp if you like the direction you're heading. 4) If I was in your position today, I'd get the Rogue Cronus in a hot minute. It's a quality unit and will enable you to get a taste of tubes at a very low cost and if you don't like it, you can resell it at very little loss. Have fun with this! I eventually sold my Advents for more than I paid for them, and that was after 20+ years of enjoyment. Good luck on your journey! |
Don't overthink it. Look for something that you can sell for about what you pay. Don't consider anything glittery and new that will drop in value overnight. Regardless of what you hear on these forums, sound quality has not had the quantum jump that some would lead you to believe. When I had Big advents, many years ago, my Marantz 8B had way more power than necessary. That's a 35 watt a side EL34 unit that's a collectible legend of relatively undistinguished sonics. I've had a couple of those and Model 5's. Great look but way overvalued. Honestly, my Dynaco ST-35 was a fine match for those speakers. You can find a modestly priced 20wpc unit of some strip pretty easily used. Those that have suggested a mid-priced tube integrated are giving you good advice. Don't jump into the deep end of decreasing returns. A good integrated should give you the essence of what you're looking for. |
There’s some good advice already here so I’ll just add this. The comment about good transformers is key, and old iron can’t be beat. Go vintage, but get something with the power supply caps redone unless you can do it yourself. That’s easy with point to point wiring in vintage equipment. Use vintage tubes. Don’t spend a lot. Start with an integrated to see if you like “the tube sound”. One of the best you could do here is a Scott 299C. It was my introduction to tubes and changed the way I heard music. I had a $$$ surround rig and after hearing the 299C it was game on.. But beware, tube amplifier collecting is addictive. Move on to a good tube preamp and power amp. Here I like some of the newer preamps, but stay with vintage power. I have plenty of both but my favs are my Wright 6SN7 based preamp and Quad II power amps. The Wright has open architecture that makes for easy tube rolling, which you will become addicted to. KT66 power amps like the Quad II’s are a good choice, smooth and neutral. A lot of the Dynaco power amps that have been modded also fit the bill. Going tube is a journey, deeper than the solid state road. Enjoy. |
Hogwash! Old iron is no better than new iron. A good design is a good design. A great 60W KT-88 amp is a Citation II, but they are pricy. Lots of old vintage stuff is in need of a complete rebuild, not just capacitors. Tube rolling is silly. Get something that sounds well and be done with it. Just enjoy the music! |
Old iron IS better than new iron. Not that it specs better or anything like that, you just can get old iron for a lot less than new iron and almost without exception transformers are well made. That's the most expensive part of an amp and manufacturers pretty much always made sure that if they were going to tool up a transformer, they did it right. Yes, good design is good design and transformer design has been optimized for years. For what it's worth, Quad II sounds much better than Citation II.I have three Citation II here right now and that pentode input stage is for the birds. The Citation transformers though are sublime. Properly rebuilt they are a revelation. Bruce Moore for instance gutted many a Citation II with just that in mind. Yes, tube rolling, just like cable rolling or fuse rolling is basically an exercise in the imaginary side of the hobby... |
Lots of good advice here. Try to learn from it. In tube sound, the warmth you like is supplied most by a tube preamp. So you could get a tube preamp into Solid state amp (there are a lot of them, used available) I’d think of some of the Pass designs like the Adcom 555. I started into the ‘tube’ sound with a used Audible Illusions PreAmp, still made new and with many used ones available in your budget range. |
Old iron IS better than new iron.Old iron is frequently cheaper than new iron. Quad II sounds much better than Citation III never thought so, but I don’t like Welch’s & ethanol either. IMO, the CII is more coherent from the low mids on down while the QII were somewhat confused in the systems in which I heard them. In tube sound, the warmth you like is supplied most by a tube preamp.No it’s not. In all cases, the entire system contributes to the final sound. A nice tube preamp is not going to help a system with a Zippo 250 SS amp and EarBleed speakers wired with HFXtreme cables. A tube amp may be more/less intolerant of cable/LS. Systems are built with ’recipes’, all little of this, all little of that to achieve a good balance and just like pudding is all in the eating, amps are all in the hearing. |
