Borresen X3 vs Harbeth 40.2 -- my impressions

Very long review and I'm not sure what to make of it. Executive summary upfront would be nice.

 

 

@helomech Very cool, and glad you protected your hearing.

I got to ride a few times a Sikorsky between Victoria and Vancouver. Very nice way to travel in that part of the world.

I imagine there’s some great scenery on that route. Was that in an S-76? At the risk of another car analogy , those are the Cadillac of rotor transport—very comfortable. That’s awesome you got to enjoy that experience. Those who’ve only flown in fixed-wings don’t realize what they’re missing.

Sources are obvious . are you denying that Harbeths line up is composed mostly of LS3/5 based shoebox designs ? Name one innovation or design feature Harbeth implemented in the last 30 years that is materially different than the shoebox speaker design.

🤔 There is this age-old saying among engineers that goes something like, “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.” I think that principle rings true to a large degree with the BBC-heritage designs. The research conducted by the BBC labs decades ago is still relevant today even though it wouldn’t be considered “cutting edge.”

And trust me, I would be one of the last to claim Harbeths represent great value at their current retail prices, but I would say the same about Sonus Faber based on subjective sound quality. When it comes to tweeters at least, it’s my experience that the Seas Excel unit employed in the M40s and M30s sounds significantly superior to that in SF’s Olympica line. I also think the M40’s bass is more articulate despite the thin-wall design.

Forgive me if you already know this, but one of the primary reasons BBC designs employ thin walls and screw-attached panels is to lower the cabinet resonance frequencies so that they do not interfere with the all-important midrange. It’s a common misconception that it’s purely done for economy. The research the BBC conducted on cabinet construction is as valid today as it was 50 years ago. Yeah they are not employing expensive or “space age” materials, but sometimes an inexpensive material does the job as well or even better than costlier alternatives. It really depends on the individual application and goals of the designer. Some would argue that SF’s use of paper cone drivers is equally “antiquated.”

Though I have moved on from BBC derivatives for my own preferences, I still consider them better than many alternatives, especially at their used prices. They might indeed have greater margins built into their pricing, but at the end of the day, what does that really matter if they are the listener’s subjective preference among many? There does come a point where we should give up the otherwise endless experimenting and just enjoy our systems and the music. It’s one thing if someone has only experienced a couple alternatives before becoming a staunch devotee, but it seems pretty evident that doesn’t apply to @arafiq .

@fishagedone

Do you have the same distain for all these other BBC type speakers including Spendor, Graham, Stirling, Falcon, Rogers, etc. as you do with Harbeth?

@arafiq Sources are obvious .  are you denying that Harbeths line up is composed mostly of LS3/5 based shoebox designs ? Name one innovation or design feature Harbeth implemented in the last 30 years that is materially different than the shoebox speaker design.

lol at 'factual statements' -- please share your source please.

@arafiq Sorry to break this to you, but your use of sarcasm is just about as boring as a wooden shoe box with a driver attached. Makes sense why you would prefer such a design.  But on a serious note, address the argument, Harbeth has consistently failed to invest in R&D, design, and is grossly overcharging for a speaker than can be produced far less. Do you actually dispute any of those factual statements?

@fishagedone As someone who previously owned both SF Olympica 2 and 3, I am forever in your debt for showing me the error of my ways. How dare I prefer the crappy box, otherwise known as Harbeth 40.2, over the magnificent Sonus Faber. I think you should collect a few thousand signatures and propose that Alan Shaw be paraded naked on donkey back on the streets of London followed by life imprisoment. What a charlatan he is for collectively fooling so many gullible audiophiles who don’t know what’s good for them. I mean who makes a speaker that looks like box?!! Surely, it must sound horrible by the looks of it. And how dare he uses true-and-tried approaches for making good sound. He should be experimenting with space age materials and exotic drivers -- who cares whether they sound better or not. After all, it's not about SQ but about design language and marketing hype for the sake of marketing hype.

Thank you for being the unsolicited messiah, sir!

@helomech I just want to clarify that my 'brash' comment was not directed towards you. In my book, it's quite ok to passionately defend your choices in audio. After all, you reached to this point after a lot of research and listening. My comments were really meant for some other posters who don't quite understand the notion of civility when making their opinions known. It's one thing to defend your choice (which you were doing) and quite another to insult people for their choices on something as inconsequential as 'liking' a specific brand. In fact, your posts really convince me to seek out an X3 audition in my home and possibly even buy one in the near future.

@mtbiker29 

@arafiq If this wasn't a 1994 era website I'd find a way to "follow" you since your posts are always very thoughtful and well reasoned.  

Separately, holy s*&^ if you punted Joseph Audio to the side for Harbeth, I can't see a scenario where X3 is on your radar, but that's just me.  You're going to need to step up 1-2 notches to really nail it from here.  

First off, thank you for the wonderful compliment. It's heartening to know that people still value balanced perspectives instead of just mindlessly rooting for their favorite brands.

I know it comes as a surprise to many that I preferred the 40.2 over JA Perspectives. The Perspectives (in fact most JA models) are really good and are generally well received in the market. They were certainly a step up from Harbeth SHL5+ which they replaced. But, the 40.x is a completely different animal IMO. Yes, they have some family resemblance but they're just in a class of their own compared to other Harbeth models. The one speaker that I heard recently is the Daedalus Apollo model. Now, this is something I feel can give Harbeth a run for its money. But it's so hard nowadays to find something you can listen to that it makes it impossible to reach an informed conclusion.

You haven't made any substantive arguments to address my points. If you love your speakers that's your right to do so, but I also have a right to point out the vast shortcoming of Harbeth as a speaker company and as a product . I did consider both models, why is that so strange ?  My primary criticism was that Harbeth uses the same technology and same.cabinet design,  which is very simplistic and does not use any new techniques or require woodworking compared to companies of a similar price point. Hence, as a consumer I found this to be a disturbing cash grab and value proposition. Add insult to injury,  now the Chinese are producing better speakers at 1/3 the price. I do have a right to be concerned that I was almost ripped off and nearly misled into paying 3 times more for an inferior product by fan boys who are not upfront about the true value proposition . 

@fishagedone Understanding that you were looking at the 30's and 40's, which of course is utter nonsense (the nonsense would have been more believable of you claimed you were contemplating the 30's and SHL5's), and that you bought the SFs (which by reputation alone appear to be very nice speakers), why do you care so much about Harbeth's so called shortcomings?

I (we) don't need your sympathy. I was not hosed. I'm on my second pair. I did own the 30's and now the 40's. BOTH my cabinets have perfectly matched walnut veneers, as did the previous pair. This is neither cheap nor easy and QC the department seems to be doing a very nice job. I am very happy and sometimes spend 3-4 hours in single dedicated listening session enjoying them.

All you are doing is insulting a very successful company/speaker that you previously admitted you "haven't looked into in any depth" and insulting Harbeth owners.

So the real question is, what is wrong with you? No one insulted you or your choice of speaker, so why do you keep at it? 

@yogiboy

It has nothing to do with your subconscious racism against the Chinese. I actually purchased a Sonus Faber, Mcintosh system in place of the Harbeth. If you can’t make real arguments against why the Harbeth is overpriced, lacks innovation, poor QC, and looks like a wood shoe box for last few decades, then please refrain from commenting.

I am merely using the Chinese example to point out how badly Harbeth owners are being hosed, when the Chinese are making a qualitatively and objectively better product at 1/3 the price. Try doing that with a Sonus Faber or BW flagship model, it will look like a joke because there’s actual real European craftsmanship and innovation in those brands. Not like Harbeths old shoe box of 50 years that never changes and even a Chinese factory can build better.

I think if both Speakers compared here are well match will gears and cabling. They will both give the performance of musical enjoyment. I consider them both good speakers. It’s up to the buyer how they utilized them to get the most out of them. It’s a matter of preference really. It’s risky to write a thread comparing two speakers? Because owners will defend their speakers. And they will push back.

@Deep_333

Pretty scathing response, don't know what your experience is with Harbeth M40 but I can say that they are not a speaker that falls short in the way(s) you mention. Robert E. Greene of the Absolute Sound, who funnily enough plays violin in an amateur Orchestra has owned M40 (the original M40) speakers for going on 20 years. You should research some of his writings on the subject. I've also owned M40's for going on 17-18 years now and in no way do they exhibit the shortcomings you mention. I think you got a bit carried away, just my opinion.

@fishagedone

胡说八道

I was in the market for a m30 or m40 type speaker, I did settle on SF Olympica instead, and that's when I started analyzing the different value propositions and business models, and started to wonder why the m40s cost so much considering the model has low manufacturing cost, simplistic design, and nearly no R&D since it's inception. That began to bother me , and I've concluded it's a cash grab, that when a true competitor emerges on sound quality, irrespective of country of origin, Harbeth will be in major trouble.  

@arafiq You have a really nice and obviously very well thought out rig. What are you thinking for your next cart? 

I probably should have saved my comments to a ls3/5 specific thread, to the extent my observations are relevant to the larger models, maybe they could be useful.  I was under the assumption that the larger models used the same design and technology as the original BBC design, but truthfully I haven't looked into this in any depth. 

@helomech Very cool, and glad you protected your hearing.

I got to ride a few times a Sikorsky between Victoria and Vancouver. Very nice way to travel in that part of the world.

My hearing was compromised 30 years ago. Got too close to a wall of JBLs at an outdoor rave in London. My system is designed to accommodate for that error in judgment.

Well all of the Ls3/5 designs are technically "knock offs".  But, the point is that if the Chinese can copy it and make it even better at 1/3 the cost, the value proposition for Harbeth is not good, and as consumers we shouldn't support companies that fail to invest in R&D, innovation, and charge for an outdated, simplistic design - that's tantamount to a wood shoe box with some varnish.  Not hating on the design, I personally like it, just don't rip me off, give me some value,  and if you're not willing to do that , then maybe they do deserve to be put out of business by the Chinese or whoever is doing at a fair price. 

I don’t doubt the Galion speakers are good considering the man behind them, but I don’t see how an LS3/5 sized speaker is relevant to this discussion.

Well all of the Ls3/5 designs are technically "knock offs".  But, the point is that if the Chinese can copy it and make it even better at 1/3 the cost, the value proposition for Harbeth is not good, and as consumers we shouldn't support companies that fail to invest in R&D, innovation, and charge for an outdated, simplistic design - that's tantamount to a wood shoe box with some varnish.  Not hating on the design, I personally like it, just don't rip me off, give me some value,  and if you're not willing to do that , then maybe they do deserve to be put out of business by the Chinese or whoever is doing at a fair price. 

Sounds like some Chinese knockoffs to me?? 

Try the Galion speakers. They have better sound and QC than Harbeth and only 33 percent the price , you can save the funds and put into a better amp or dac. The truth is all Ls3/5 models are inexpensive to produce with minimal woodworking and complexity compared to a Sonus Faber or BW cabinet. The margin is unjustified , and the lack of innovation or improvements in the speaker make the retail price of $3k plus ripe for a competitor like Galion to pretty much put them out of business. 

I’m glad that @helomech ​​​​ and  @arafiq could find some common and cordial ground. I enjoy reading posts by both of these members.

I think when speakers reach a certain level of quality/price, you can’t really say one is “better”. What one listener might see as a negative, another might feel it’s a positive. At a certain level the quality of sound becomes very personal and subjective, much more so than say differences between 2 good SS amps. 

I somewhat agree with this. Even the highest performance speakers are considerably more flawed than a good SS amp by all objective measures. It’s why I’m of the opinion that many audiophiles have been misguided in allocating their system budgets. 
 

Currently I am using a relatively modest Yamaha A-S2100 integrated with my X3s. They have terrific synergy. The X3s seem to be revealing that the 2100 is actually the better amplification package than my Benchmark/Parasound separates. With any lesser speakers, it was mostly a tossup between the two amps. I suspect I could possibly even go up another level in speaker performance before I max out the 2100’s potential. That is if the next speakers are as efficient as the X3s.

I have no plans of upgrading speakers for the foreseeable future, but I’ve made that statement before. 😂  Past speaker upgrades always resulted in tradeoffs though, whereas the X3s meet or exceed every one that came before them. Even the intangible “musicality” factor is a step up with the X3s. 

I think when speakers reach a certain level of quality/price, you can’t really say one is “better”. What one listener might see as a negative, another might feel it’s a positive. At a certain level the quality of sound becomes very personal and subjective, much more so than say differences between 2 good SS amps. 

I think when speakers reach a certain level of quality/price, you can’t really say one is “better”. What one listener might see as a negative, another might feel it’s a positive. At a certain level the quality of sound becomes very personal and subjective, much more so than say differences between 2 good SS amps. 

I think when speakers reach a certain level of quality/price, you can’t really say one is “better”. What one listener might see as a negative, another might feel it’s a positive. At a certain level the quality of sound becomes very personal and subjective, much more so than say differences between 2 good SS amps. 

@arafiq If this wasn't a 1994 era website I'd find a way to "follow" you since your posts are always very thoughtful and well reasoned.  

Separately, holy s*&^ if you punted Joseph Audio to the side for Harbeth, I can't see a scenario where X3 is on your radar, but that's just me.  You're going to need to step up 1-2 notches to really nail it from here.  

Changing subjects, is your user name a reference to your profession? (If you don’t mind me asking)

It is indeed a reference to my prior career as a rotorcraft mechanic. I spent the first 16 years of my adult life maintaining a variety of rotorcraft including Robinsons, Bells and Sikorskys. These days I work in research/development of composite materials for aviation, though we test/evaluate materials for other industries as well.

Fortunately, working in aviation taught me early the importance of hearing protection.

I will say, my lab experience does make me somewhat apprehensive of owning speakers that employ composite-sandwich cones, in terms of longevity. But the only diaphragms I’ve yet heard that match them in sound are electrostatics, and of course those have their own drawbacks and concerns for reliability. I suppose for me the gamble is worth the tradeoff.

@willywonka Yes they are.  So, I suppose comparison to Harbeth HL5 plus at $8K would be a closer match.  Used, the 40.2 are about $12K.  I would choose the Harbeth especially since I have 70,000+ recordings of opera and classical vocal recordings.  Harbeth's have an emotionally attractive feeling whereas the Borrensen's ($25-50K models) at shows left me cold.  So do Magicos and big Wilsons.  

@helomech 

I appreciate your comments. Car analogies are a slippery slope! 

Changing subjects, is your user name a reference to your profession? (If you don't mind me asking)

There are a lot of bulls here running at red flags, my goodness. The disrespect for the OP’s positioning and obvious even handedness seems only to occur in forums in this culture. I thought this was a genuinely interesting thread started. I listened to the Borreson’s in Singapore not long ago. Their inherent narrow box design creates a unique sound and sound stage from small speaker units versus Harbeth a big box design. I appreciate the OP’s willingness to share his experience. I’m not in the market for either, but enjoy reading others experiences. It’s sad though that these threads can quickly degenerate in tone and create offence, and defensiveness. Again, thanks for sharing OP.

It seems to me this thread has mostly progressed with a cordial tone (much in thanks to the OP’s cool head). Other than a couple post-and-ghost responses, I don’t believe anyone here is purposefully bashing a brand or product. Though I understand why some would read it that way. Earlier in the thread I likened the 40.2s to a Volkswagen GTI. That was probably a poor choice of analogy because many here probably own and drive nicer vehicles. But I did not intend that as in insult. Rather, I thought it a fitting analogy because the GTI is an excellent all-rounder by any standard. It does everything at least pretty well and has no notable weaknesses. Perhaps its greatest strength is in its even balance of attributes, thus, I thought the analogy a befitting complement to the sound of the 40.2s. In fact I was recently considering a purchase of one of these vehicles, that’s how much I admire them. One can spend the same money and do a lot worse, and I feel similarly about the 40.2s. 

Regardless, for the record, I like the Harbeth 40.2s. It is in fact my favorite Harbeth speaker by a wide margin. I probably should’ve led with that statement, and I apologize to the OP if my posts came off as brash and offensive. Admittedly, tact in these discussions is not my strong suit. I do appreciate @arafiq ’s effort in auditioning the Borresens and sharing his impressions. Hopefully he will share more if/when he acquires a pair of X3s. 

Curiiousjim my guess the X3 are on the dealer. The Harbeth are in his house. You see the Axxes match well with Børresen, as I withness at axpona 2024. Even Steve Huff like the x1 and axxes combo.Arafiq did not like the x3 and axxess combo.

@arafiq 

Thanks for the wonderful review of the X3’s.  I have one question.  Did the dealer have both speakers side by side or were you using muscle memory(😁) when comparing the two?

I believe Arafiq has no bad intentions, He got a good result from the Harbeth performance. It happens. He got  carried away .I think if he just tone down the comparison the thread is very informative. I think moving forward Arafiq will contribute nicely on this site.If I am correct this is the first time he wrote a long thread.i be more happier ,especially he did not bash my Tekton elegance LOL just kidding.

@arafiq

What an outstanding speaker review and comparison.  I have a very good feel, based solely on your detailed and easily understood review, of the quality of each of these speakers which were unknown to me.  I wish every review could be as well done as this one.
Thank you.

Thank you for sharing your experience @arafiq

Arafiq maybe you are joking when you compare the Børresen elegance to Tekton. I own two ps 12 and impact monitor. They play nice music. But they don’t look like Sonus Faber beauty. Iam not offended i respect your opinion.Its only audio why get offended.please continue to post when you get your Maggie and hopefully x3. Let’s enjoy this hobby without bashing.

There are a lot of bulls here running at red flags, my goodness. The disrespect for the OP’s positioning and obvious even handedness seems only to occur in forums in this culture. I thought this was a genuinely interesting thread started. I listened to the Borreson’s in Singapore not long ago. Their inherent narrow box design creates a unique sound and sound stage from small speaker units versus Harbeth a big box design. I appreciate the OP’s willingness to share his experience. I’m not in the market for either, but enjoy reading others experiences. It’s sad though that these threads can quickly degenerate in tone and create offence, and defensiveness. Again, thanks for sharing OP.

definitely in agreement about OP’s opinion of the Forte all in one

Count me as another.

Even though my initial audition of the X3s was with the Forte amp and I enjoyed the sound, I could tell the amp was holding them back. There was just enough of that typical class D character coming through. Fortunately over the years I’ve developed a pretty good ability to parse out the likely culprit of a sonic wart, and could hear the potential of the X3s despite the Forte handicapping them.

I think Borresen might be better served by conducting demos of the X3s with their Aavik amps. I suspect they are probably trying to convey a sense of economy by using the Forte to build a complete system for <$20K.

At the THE show this year, I asked the rep and distributor in the Borresen room as to the source of their cabinets, as I was under the same impression that you have, that being only the X series is not made in Denmark. I was told that all of their cabinets are sourced overseas, not just the X series.

Thanks for the clarification.

In my opinion the cabinets are exceptionally well constructed for the price point. At least, they feel and look much more premium than similarly priced speakers from the likes of Focal or B&W. The only similarly priced speakers I’ve owned that had nicer finished cabinets are the Audio Physic Avantis, primarily because they were flanked in glass-encased veneer. Those cabinets were far more resonant during playback however, and had a total mass less than half that of the X3s. 

Agreed. I can’t imagine X3s sounding bright or fatiguing. 

Years ago, like 40 of them, a friend referred to a pair of standpoint speakers that I had at the time as "screaming bricks". Eli (bless his ears) is gone now, as are those speakers. But that was exactly what came to mind when I heard the X3's at Capital Audiofest. 

This would be an entirely believable anecdote if we were discussing Golden Ear’s Triton series or some Focals. But considering the X3s are the least fatiguing speakers I’ve owned, including among them Spendors, Harbeth and Stirling Broadcast, this post is difficult to take seriously. 
 
Even if they were paired with the unworthy Axxess Forte amp, I still can’t imagine them eliciting such a response, especially considering the numerous listeners who reported they sounded exceptional at that show. 

@helomech  At the THE show this year, I asked the rep and distributor in the Borresen room as to the source of their cabinets, as I was under the same impression that you have, that being only the X series is not made in Denmark. I was told that all of their cabinets are sourced overseas, not just the X series.

Years ago, like 40 of them, a friend referred to a pair of standpoint speakers that I had at the time as "screaming bricks". Eli (bless his ears) is gone now, as are those speakers. But that was exactly what came to mind when I heard the X3's at Capital Audiofest. 

definitely in agreement about OP’s opinion of the Forte all in one

goor write up, thanks for taking the time to educate us all.

Harbeth fans have a long history of bashing any detractors, or anyone who confers even the remotest criticism. You can find that behavior on nearly any lengthy Harbeth thread. IME, Harbeth fans tend to be as dogmatic and vitriolic as those of Audio Note, perhaps more so if we exclude AN’s principal unpaid advertiser.

That's true for any brand. Why pick on Harbeth only. Besides, please read this thread and tell me who is doing most of the bashing here :)

As for colorations, if we are using that yardstick then many of our beloved speaker brands will fail the test. Obviously, Alan Shaw is going for a specific sound signature that appeals to a subset of audiophiles. It's not designed to appeal to everyone. He's not going after the flattest frequency response. Anyone buying Harbeth speakers is very well aware of it. Why is this a problem for so many people? 

Let's grow up and stop questioning people's listening/analytical abilities, calling them outdated/old, and all sorts of juvenile behavior that has been on display on this thread and others. You don't like Harbeth, who cares. I like it enough to own it and enjoy it. You like another brand better, all the power to you. Enjoy the music and your preferred choice of audio equipment.