It doesn’t accomplish the same thing but it might do the job you need it to do. Most formal diffuser panels are designed to scatter frequencies in a fairly uniform way, and many of them work from the midrange up. Properly placed, they will reduce some of the frequencies that your room are causing peaks on and helping with some phase cancellations you may be experiencing. The end result is a more pleasing experience resulting in you hearing more of the music.
A bookshelf may accomplish something similar as the incongruency will reduce uniform reflections that often cause problems, as long as the bookshelf is placed in generally a helpful spot in the room. That said, it will not scatter frequencies as uniformly, and the density of the shelf and books may also absorb lower frequencies, while the furniture portions of the bookshelf may reflect certain frequencies.
Will it do the job you want? Maybe, you’ll have to experiment. But a bookshelf filled with books and other things is typically better to have on first reflection points (side walls between the speaker and you) than having nothing there.
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Well. They are kind of the same. The real question is how much diffusion is best for your speakers. These are floor to ceiling bookshelves? You can pull books out an inch or so randomly changing the book surfaces to be highly irregular.
Different speakers require different ampunt of diffusion. You can experiment by throwing heavy blankets over the bookshelves. See my systems. A thick wool oriental carpet has really improved my system. Pillows across the bottom killed the fan noise from my amp and low reflections.
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Where is that bookshelf located vis-à-vis your audio system? A bookshelf is definitely better than nothing, but it cannot possibly compare with a properly designed diffuser panel. I used such bookshelves to mimic diffusers early on, but once I tried diffuser panels (GIK Alpha 4a), there was not going back. The 4” Alphas are combination absorber, bass trap, and diffuser. I now have 14 Alpha 4” and 6”.
Here is copy / paste from GIK website:
The key to good diffusion is an even scattering. A quality diffuser should scatter the sound in a complete 180 degrees. GIK treatments like the gotham and alpha series are designed with a mathematical formula to give a perfectly even scattering.
Good diffusion doesn’t happen by accident, the designs are very precise and complex. Some people suggest using a bookcase filled with books as a cheap form of diffusion, but a random assortment of books is extremely unlikely to have the layout precision required to produce good diffusion. It’s probably better than a bare, reflective wall, but it won’t perform like a good diffuser.
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full and healthy bookshelves perform a similar function to room treatment and (more importantly, imo) makes a space cozier and more comfortable to be in.
i have nothing against professionally treated rooms - they sound amazing - but i personally prefer a comfortable space surrounded by the things that i love and value to some sterile, professionally treated, Serious Listening lair with a single chair and 50k in electronics on the floor surrounding the obelisks from 2001: a space odyssey. i could hit the lottery tomorrow and would still gladly make that sacrifice (or alleged sacrifice) in sound quality 8 days out of the week 😂
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Personally I can't stand bookshelves in rooms. You have to fill them with books or assorted pictures and objects so they will hopefully interest visitors. U are Stuck with them.
Much prefer the blank canvas of a wall that you can decorate much more creatively.
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What wins? Artificial ficus trees win. Get a few 5' - 6' artificial ficus trees and use them as diffusers. Much more effective than bookshelves or wasting money or time on diffuser panels. I have over a dozen in my listening room and they are great. And have a VERY HIGH Wife Acceptance Factor value.
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Books work well! if you tilt the 3 book forward, DA Scanlon will come down the elevator fireplace!
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Books work well enough...so do a stack of records. So many functional ways to use traditional decor to accommodate acoustic benefits. For example I have no highly reflective surfaces in my living room except a 60" monitor on the side wall. I cover it with a wool throw blanket when listening. No picture frames with glass. All artwork is canvas or wood carvings. It's not perfect...but it looks like a living room and it works well enough to get some imaging and focus.
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If you’ve a 60ft room 12ft ceiling S… small sound system and nothing else, envision an echo chamber or living in a gigantic tin can. Throw in some wool carpet, tapestries, non-vibrating furniture, bookshelves, now you’ve defused and it looks great. Doesn’t have to cost A fortune nor look like a setting of an old Star Trek chamber Lol
Cheers
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Isn't this accomplishing the same thing as a 3 x 5 diffuser panel?
And also providing way to sneak a diffuser past the SO (significant other) 😎
I am thinking about some veneer/laminated fish or manta rays, to hang on a macrame type of hanging.
(The SO wants to have some ocean wave type of macrame wall hanging behind the sofa, and I suggested some ~250mm square folded manta ray looking pieces to put onto it… she said, “Would you do that for me?”)
Basically anything moving away from glass and polished marble is a good direction, and if one likes books, then bookshelves are a very nice option to make a room comfortable and also sound good.
What do you like to read @jumia ?
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Jumia likes to read scientific America which is an amazing magazine. If you wanna understand the horrors of climate change and fascinating quantum physics issues and cosmic stuff along with lots of other good stuff this is the magazine to read. Don't read a lot of books. Also read the drudge report which is an exceptional diversity of stuff.
Thank you for asking
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60 foot by ?? With 12 foot ceilings and a small system will sound fine for near field.
I have a 18 x 22 room with 12 foot ceilings, bookshelf’s do function as defusers and have acoustic treatments. Norma 140B and several speakers, floor standers and stand mounts that sound fantastic in this room.
Is it perfect acoustically like my local concert hall?
Nope but sounds darn good to me and the bookshelf’s do work.
Scientific America is a fine magazine as is Nat Geo and Smithsonian.
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"Personally I can't stand bookshelves in rooms."
You would hate our place (the living room alone has over 130 linear feet of bookshelves).
My favorites are open backed "standards" with shallow 5.5" deep shelves as the books just seem to hang in the air.
I installed them on the speaker wall in the living room starting @ one foot above the floor and extending to the ceiling.
Did the same in the main bedroom on the "my side of the bed" wall.
White walls white hardware/shelf material and the shelves themselves are barely noticeable.
DeKay
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@jumia,
Bookshelf vs diffuser panel. Who wins?
Diffuser panel: Because a bookshelf is not a diffuser panel. See below:
Mike
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I love books / bookshelves and we have nine floor to ceiling bookshelves in our house… after getting ride of half our books. Most newer stuff is accumulating on iPads now. Nothing more comforting than to be surrounded by knowledge. My partner and I dearly love knowledge and share 6 college degrees between us.
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The appropriate terminology is what rather than who wins.
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What an excellent point.
Maybe it sounds better to say ‘which one wins?
Or simply ‘which wins’. Yeah maybe that one’s better.
I wonder if most people with bookcases display a dictionary? It’s sad but I only have a paperback dictionary and that’s hardly of substance since it’s kind of small. But I do have a hard bound thesaurus which is impressive. I have used it before too.
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@dekay We have two libraries of books in my home (75% my collection/25% my late former wife's). We took a 12' wall in a spare bedroom and installed book shelving 8' high to store about 1500 books (she was an historian so 30% of those books are of California/Los Angeles/local history). There are books on comedians, seashells (she was a collector), architecture, art, U.S. history among the topics. Then in our formal and large family room, we have beautiful built-in bookcases on either side of our fireplace (room has a 19' peak) with another 1000 art books, Judaica, entertainment (TV/Movie) books and leather bound fiction. Another closet is filled with at least 500+ paperback fiction (I read my fill in my youth-prefer opera now). I know, this doesn't have much to do with audio. Read my next post.
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@ditusa However, take everything Acoustic Fields says as an attempt to separate you from your money. I spent $150,000+ on constructing a listening room with the contractor who worked with him on other projects. He never supplied the plans, they were in his head. I had to pay by wire. He put me off several months, then shipped incorrect sized carbon filters, too many acoustic filters boxes, ordered too much acoustiblok rolls and incorrect sized ceiling acoustic filter boxes. After alerting him that the front and back wall box filters were killing the sound (overdamped), he said send me another $30K for front and rear quadradic diffusers. Not they aren't worth it but they were going to be about 15" deep. My room was only 19'6" deep. I would have lost another 2'6" with a room depth of only 17'. Yuck! The exterior of the room was 22' , with 16" thick walls all around. He cost me several months delay in time and materials.
I use two pairs of Shakti Hallographs (2 in the front wall corners are certainly out of the way and two against the mid-walls). I also use 34 Synergistic Research HFTs... The front wall HFTs... serve the function of 180 degree diffusers to a great extent. I would like to add that the front 5'+ high HFT-X diffuser is the most critical to high-mid range balance and the four HFT 2.0s on the side of the speakers are the most critical for the bass vs. mid-treble balance. The other 29 HFTs, not so much but they work together. Hardly anyone mentioned their presence.
I recommend quadradic diffusion if your room permits them. Mine didn't.
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@jumia
where is the book case located?
side wall issues can be greatly minimized with speaker positioning.
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@fleschler
Sorry to hear your story. Love to see your systems and venue.
You may have heard me talk about my room. I just really lucked out with incredible acoustics. Large highly asymmetric room.
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Guys: as with everything in life, there is no free lunch. Bookshelves, rags, towels, blankets… you name it. Been there done that. There is no substitute to real room treatments. Let’s not fool ourselves. Yes, we all want to save money AND effort/ work.
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Good diffusers will be much more effective than bookshelves by producing a 3-dimensional airy sound in the midrange and treble. That’s the main difference when introducing diffusion in the room.
Sound-wise diffusers will win. Practicality and aesthetically bookshelves have the advantage. Although they might not bring a large impact as proper diffusers, they still bring some and it's better than none. On the scale of 10, if diffusers score 9, bookshelves score 4 or 3. Better than none.
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How about a few big towel racks on the wall.
mr fleschler, awesome info about your book collection. My mother had lots of books and she gave them away to the library. To my horror she gave away lots of signed books. I'm sure many were first edition really nice.
It seems in the 30s and 40s lots of authors signed many of their books I guess. I have four books signed by Carl Sandburg. He liked Lincoln a lot.
Horrifying experience to treat your room. Maybe it's OK now
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@jumia
I also acquired/rescued 40 lawn bags of books from the estate of the late Universal pictures conductor Joseph Gershenson which were left out in 1988 for trash. I took the 1,000+ books, donated half to CSUN (many were 1st editions/unsigned) who sold them at their book sale fundraiser. My late former wife created the Friends of the Library there so it was a very appropriate donation. I kept the music and history books.
Glad you kept the Sandburg books. For my late former wife's last birthday, I purchased the only remaining seven years (1916-1923) of the Owensmouth Gazette, bound by the former owner, Edgar Rice Burroughs (Tarzan author) who also founded and lived in Tarzana, CA. Since my late former wife was the historian of the San Fernando Valley (she had three urban archives exhibits, one on line by the Getty Museum), president 10 years of the SFV historical society, this was the greatest gift I could give her. Unfortunately, she died (after an 11 year systemic lupus illness) a few months later. I then had the Huntington Library make a negative and positive microfilm copy which I donated to CSUN.
Unfortunately, university libraries have greatly diminished book collections, at least not on the shelves, whose spaces are now occupied by banks of computers.
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fleschler:
Friends of the Library was our "cheap date" going back to 1991 and up until Covid-19 put a halt to the sales.
We walked to the North Gardner library until it was closed and also frequented our local Sunset, Fairfax and Melrose libraries.
My wife maintains contact with many of the volunteers via social media as she has not been to a library since March of 2020 (I have been performing the drop off/pickups since then).
DeKay
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@dekay We are neighbors! Bobbette Fleschler & Catherine Mulholland founded the Friends in 1993. I know because when I made the final bid for my house she was at the founders meeting and was elected first president that day. (We got the house because of the photo). Bobbette was in the Daily News newspaper in a large photo on the 3rd page showing her with our young daughter in the CSUN orange grove. She was partly responsible for saving it (and was featured on a Huell Howser show). You can appreciate my final gift to her.
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Has anyone seen cylindrical diffusers that come on a stand that can be mounted in the corner. Seems a diffuser from all angles might be a cool idea.
Maybe with all these stock piles of books people seem to have someone could package them up ever so carefully sized and then arranged scientifically to address all the frequencies just like a real diffuser. The small books, the median books and oversized books can be packaged up sequenced so they can be easily mounted on the bookshelf.
There this solves everybody’s problems allowing for modifications to suit the needs of all those people pretending they can hear differences. We know it’s really positive reinforcement at work. Oh I hear a difference, guess that means it’s gonna be better now. Huge plus if you get some books that you may want to read.
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There this solves everybody’s problems allowing for modifications to suit the needs of all those people pretending they can hear differences. We know it’s really positive reinforcement at work. Oh I hear a difference, guess that means it’s gonna be better now.
Hmmmmm…. Then why do anything at all? Leave it all alone. It’s all “play pretend” anyways 🙄
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OP,
The cylinders are tube traps. I have owned a pair for 25 years. With my current room (large) they are not so important. But in smaller rectangular rooms they are. In side is designed to face outwards and reflects high frequency and midrange. They trap bass. They can also used in the middle against the front wall… and at other reflection points.
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I have a 12 x 16 room with 7 1/2 foot ceilings. Yeah I know the cylinder you speak about, but I was looking for a diffuser cylinder all the way around.
Diffuser are a pain in the ass to buy with all the various designs and not seeing the one I really want unless I have to spend two to $3000. Let's face it lots of them look pretty crappy.
Frankly I’m concerned if I put diffusers in my room it may enhance the clarity of the music moreso. So I’m not sure if diffusers would be a good thing. Although it would be nice to dull the higher end frequencies at times which can be harsh depending upon the recording.
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@dekay Re egg flats....cheap seats, zero WAF. *L*
In the basement dungeons, backed with rock wool sheets and angled, it’ll work.
Best to be a confirmed bachelor if in the living space is the only option....
Been around enough garage bands with delusions of grandeur, but funds limited to equipment v. ’studio treatments’. Anything to keep the neighbors from being revolting...reference "Joe’s Garage" - F. Zappa
Personally I've been considering these:
Available in a number of patterns, can accept paint...won't 'go' with Early American or other sorts of furnishings that y'all live with and prefer and enjoy, but...beats being banished to the basement or out of the homestead entirely. ;)
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Mounted to movable MDF panels for experiments until one is happy or at least resigned to what is possible...
Heavy curtains on long hardware, floor to ceiling.....the 'stage look' as a backdrop...
YRWV....
Good luck to us all....J
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Does anyone have experienced with the vertical blinds, say on a window behind the speakers, as opposed to having curtains there as a diffuser panel?
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