I downsized my system a bit when I got out of the audio business, I got a used set of Polk SRS 2.3 for $700 and drive them with the most over the top system probably in history, $20+k in JPS wire including Aluminata power cords, Belles 350 monoblocks, Electrocompaniet EMC-1 CD, but they rock. They have oustanding mid-highs and prodigious bass that may not be the last word in audiophile bass but they are mind blowing for imaging and depth. They are just an easy to listen to fun to crank up speaker, NEED POWER THOUGH
Big Stupid Warm Speakers
I'm getting ready for a speaker change. I've owned B&W 804 matrix speakers for about 12 years now. While I've enjoyed the refinement of them there's always been something missing.
Yes that's right, and that something might be BIG STUPID WOOFERS. Some of my favorite speakers ever were a pair of Infinity's I paid $300 for in 1979. They had 15 inch woofers, tweeters that were harsh and not the greatest, but these things roared like an angry lion even when no music was playing. When it was playing, about anything from Oingo Boingo to Mozart was a visceral experience.
Now with upper end speakers, you don't know there's bass until there's supposed to be, the tweeters are refined and realistic sounding, there's some wonderful imaging etc. But it's somehow too polite - I want to get back some of the warmth from the big woofer days. And no, using a sub isn't the same thing.
I remember being in a high end store about 10 years ago when a Polk Rep was there showing this huge new Polk speaker that was just incredible sounding. Big warm, realistic, detailed -awesome. I asked the store owner when he'd be getting them. He rolled his eyes and said, "Our customers are too discriminating for this type of speaker. The bottom end was way out of control."
So maybe I want out of control instead of polite. Can anyone put me in the direction of some BIG STUPID WARM SPEAKERS that still have some refined and high end attributes? The rest of my system is all Cary HT that retails for around $10K.
Cary Cinema 6 Preamp Processor
Cary Cinema 5 Multichannel amp (200 WPC)
Cary Cinema DVD 6 (incredible with CD's)
Even though the system is HT, the electronics do very well with music. And even the they're Cary components, they're solid state - but easy on the ears. I listen to Classical, Jazz, Electronic, Bluegrass, etc.
Oh yeah, and looking to spend under $3K/pair.
Has anyone else gone through this? Any speaker recommendations? Thanks.
Yes that's right, and that something might be BIG STUPID WOOFERS. Some of my favorite speakers ever were a pair of Infinity's I paid $300 for in 1979. They had 15 inch woofers, tweeters that were harsh and not the greatest, but these things roared like an angry lion even when no music was playing. When it was playing, about anything from Oingo Boingo to Mozart was a visceral experience.
Now with upper end speakers, you don't know there's bass until there's supposed to be, the tweeters are refined and realistic sounding, there's some wonderful imaging etc. But it's somehow too polite - I want to get back some of the warmth from the big woofer days. And no, using a sub isn't the same thing.
I remember being in a high end store about 10 years ago when a Polk Rep was there showing this huge new Polk speaker that was just incredible sounding. Big warm, realistic, detailed -awesome. I asked the store owner when he'd be getting them. He rolled his eyes and said, "Our customers are too discriminating for this type of speaker. The bottom end was way out of control."
So maybe I want out of control instead of polite. Can anyone put me in the direction of some BIG STUPID WARM SPEAKERS that still have some refined and high end attributes? The rest of my system is all Cary HT that retails for around $10K.
Cary Cinema 6 Preamp Processor
Cary Cinema 5 Multichannel amp (200 WPC)
Cary Cinema DVD 6 (incredible with CD's)
Even though the system is HT, the electronics do very well with music. And even the they're Cary components, they're solid state - but easy on the ears. I listen to Classical, Jazz, Electronic, Bluegrass, etc.
Oh yeah, and looking to spend under $3K/pair.
Has anyone else gone through this? Any speaker recommendations? Thanks.
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Another Vandersteen fan, I had a pair that I bought while living in Boulder, CO back in the early 90's (I think they were 2C's if i remember right). I think that is your magic bullet. For the money, I have never heard anything better that will give you good bottom end and great imaging- also extremely smooth and well balanced on all types of music which is much more than I can say for some of the more expensive stuff that I currently own. I'm doing a re-cone on a pair of CV D-7's just because they are big stupid speakers that give you that punch that you are talking about. I also have a pair of Klipsch Cornwalls that do an even better job of the big and stupid. Fortunately I don't have a wife to bit** about all this stuff. I have a pair of $2300 small speakers that I keep in my family room upstairs so that I can still find a girlfriend on occasion. |
entertaining thread... i remember some big 3 way polks from @ 1982 that were a blast. the drawback was the impedence dipped quite low and tended to fry amps without guts. had a buddy who kept frying his int.luxman amp (pre luxman sellout)that was a great piece and rated over 80 wpc. the speakers were fast as lightening and punched like goerge foreman on acid. they were wide but not too deep in big box enclosure. they were the ultimate college party speaker but very clean mids and good sizzle. i loved my big 2 way 10 in. jbl's but these things were awesome! |
A pair of used Snell Model Cs, one thru three versions. Vandersteen 2Ce, 2Ci, Nht 2.5i....these are all examples of relatively modern speakers that would give you a nice warm, full bass on a budget....about $300.00 to $700.00 a pair. The later Snells with the poly woofers might not be so warm, but real punchy and fast, and very good none-the-less. Oh there are others to be sure, like the Snell type A, first iteration, absolutely wounder-full, big and warm, but the ones I mentioned above are the ones I am presently playing around with....again. But why not go back to the beginning, the very beginning....well almost. A good pair of early AR3As, using the woofer that was first use in the Ar3s, set up on 24" high stands, or in my case on 24" high old Warfdale cabinets, will give you a bass that defines what warm bass is; yet it will still be very detailed at the lowest end, with lots of upper bass thud and fullness when you want it...plenty fast too. Acoustic Research (AR) invented big bass in the small (by standards of the day, 1950s/60s) package, and I don't care what anyone says, the AR3....granddaddy to all 3way acoustic suspensions designs, and the first speaker ever to use dome drivers, invented by AR....and the AR3a are the most satisfying speaker systems I have ever heard; I've owned hundreds...wilsons/watts/puppies/maggies/acoustat/psb/paradigm/nht/duntek/and on and on/advents/bose 901/canton/b&w/ess/ohm/klipsch/eminent technology/etc.,etc...you name some for me, and I'll tell you yes or no as to weather or not I have owned them because my memory for names fails me at present. But no matter how many times I've strayed, and no matter how many speakers systems I've put up at any given time, I always find myself coming back to the ARs.... The others are usually more efficient, so they seem to have an advantage, but come back I do; with my current amps, McIntosh MC252, transistors, and Masa Baron, tubes, the efficiency advantage seems moot since I have plenty of power to play the ARs satisfyingly in my 15' x 25' x 9' listening area. The big (called bookshelf in their day) ARs have remained with me for decades, while others have come and gone. They have pretty good extension in the highs, nice defined midrange, and a bass that is big, warm, but also tight, fast and defined....the ringed woofers are a work of art, and kill anything found on modern speakers costing upwards to $5000.00. The solid, all wood through and through cabinets hark back to the days when building a fine speaker was really a craft. Spend 3 grand on a pair of speakers today, and you still don't get real wood through and through, not in most cases. The big ARs are something to cherish. The 3As might be better than the 3s for those who crave a bit more highs....or slightly modify the crossover of either, and add a more modern tweeter if you like; be sure to perfectly seal the cabinet, and make sure you have the correct amount of fiberglass baffling material installed. This makes a big difference in the bass capabilities of the speaker. One last thing about the ARs....these speakers do not sound boxy at all, like some ported designs do. Even ones costing several thousand dollars. And they image very well, with a very detailed center stage; even staging to the outside of the speakers, that is if the recording is done that way, they will present it, with all the positioning of the vocals and instrumentation, etc., rendered spaciously intact....I love them! Yet, invent the same thing anew they do...."On our waste to perfection," each generation, until all the generations are born and have lived and died, seeks to find that which is important, or of real value. So, go go go....a new gimmick a day keeps the blues doctor away, but there's very little in audio that's truly new under the sun....except your new speakers, yeah!! "On our waste to perfection, we have reached a new direction"......yeah,,,yeah. |
I was kind of in the same boat. Had a pair of Infinity Ren. 90s and got tired of the lean, lightweight sound. I upgraded to JM Lab 946 Electras and now have more of the slam and dynamics I was craving. Much easier to drive than the Infinitys were, 93 db vs 87 db. Detailed, dynamic, accurate and bass you can feel. They work great with every type of music including rock. |
You might want to investigate the Harbeth or Spendor line of speakers, which tend to be very warm and musical, and can have reasonably large woofers. For a bit tighter bass but keeping some warmth, Von Schweikerts come to mind. I concur with the Vandersteen votes above as well. I also agree that "high-end" speakers are becoming way too analytical in the top octaves, especially for CD-only listeners. |
Both of these can sound very good. The VMPS Supertower/R SE',FF3 and FF1's sound excellent but need some care in set up. Bass is world class to 20hz, that's a very honest 20hz btw on the FF1 and Supertower, mid twenties on the FF3. There's two 15's, one active and one passive for the lower bass. The mid/upper bass is handled by a 10 woven carbon fiber. Well worth researching. They can still be bought although the newer ribbon line gets all the bandwidth after winning the CES with a pair. Legacy speakers have that good bass also but I think the mids aren't quite as coherent as the VMPS I mentioned above due to the planar mids. |
I know what you mean about the B&W's. I hate it when I go into a showroom to demo a piece of equipment and they have it hooked up to B&W speakers. They will put you to sleep, something that you should buy a 70 year old person. If you want to be woken up, get yourself some Klipschorns. They are so dynamic, and revealing that they will scare you. It's best to have good upstream equipment with these speakers, because they won't hide anything. Your Cary stuff should do. |
I have a pair of Legacy Focus 20/20's. They have great base and I do not run a sub. I like my base realistic. I know there are many who say, "what no sub for LFE!". You really must here these, I am a 2ch person that wants hi end sound from my home theater. I think they fit the bill. they go for about $7K a pair. Good luck, hunting for audio gear is lots of fun. Listen to many before making a call. nick -- |
I know JBL speakers are not up to Hi-Fi tesk in these days but you might just want to check out their Northrige series-E100. It uses dual 10" driver. Best Buy carry them. Last year JBL had Studio series which had 12" driver You might find them in internet stores who might carry them left over stocks. I have heared them both. E100 sounded better between the two. I ended up getting Dynaudio 52s with Sub. Well good luck finding your pairs. |
I guess one problem I've just been reminded of is the WAF. The wife has a problems with huge speakers. Are there any medium sized speakers with that big warm sound? I looked at the Vandersteen 3a today, and that would be about the maximum size I could shuffle in past the wife. By the way, the 3A's didn't sound particularly big and warm. In the setup, they actually sounded a bit bright and bass shy. I'm still hoping to audition them in my house to get a better idea. |
I saw Duntech Princesses mentioned above--actually, they're pretty neutral, having owned a pair for 11 years, though they are lacking in transparency. However, the one in the Duntech line that might fill your bill is the Black Knight, with bigger woofers than the Princess and a fairly boomy sound if they weren't set up right. Gigantic, too, but cheap in the used market if you can find them. |
The speakers that squidboyw has are the B&W 808's that uppermidfi and Davehrab are referring to. They will give you all that you are looking for and more. Power hungry but worth it. You need Acrobat Reader for the file on them. B&W 808 |
Great thread I feel the same way. I would suggest a pair of the old Boston Acoustics A400's. Two eight inch woofers, one 6.6 inch midrange, one 1 inch ferro filled dowm tweeter. The A400's weigh about 70 pounds each. The have plenty of bottom end and great mids and highs, with a nearly ideal frequency response. If you find a nice pair they'll be well worth it. Cheers, Nocaster. |
Your description matches the sound of a favorite speaker of mine. If you don't mind buying used, a pair of Alon IVs would give you big, warm sound with lotsa bass and still be open, unboxy and refined on top. The have a huge soundstage, are very coherent top to bottom, and very dynamic. They're heavy, and they need to be tri-wired, but they are much loved by their owners. They usually go for around $1100-1400 here on A-gon. They can overwhelm a small room but are highly effective in medium to large rooms. They'reone of the best kept secrets in audio. I have the Alon Vs (which has better controlled woofers and more balanced sound - the IVs are on the warmish side) and have used Cary equipment with them. (Currently using Herron electronics) and I think your Cary gear would be a great match. Alon by Accarion is now Nola Speakers - they don't really have anything comparable in the present line-up. But go to their website nolaspeakers.com and look up the reviews for the Alon IVs. They sound just like what you're looking for. (Not that it matters, but the IVs were Class B in Stereophile years ago. Don't hold that against them.) |
Actually I heard some Martin Logans today. Maybe they weren't warmed up or something, but the bass sounded very tubby and ill defined. I've also heard the Legacy and Dunlavy might be good candidates elsewhere. Now that I have good electronics, I'm not really looking for high efficiency, especially if it hides or colors the electronics. The Vandersteens I heard and were unimpressed with were the 2 series. I'll keep a lookout for the 3's or 5's going used. Thanks again for all the suggestions. |
In terms of physical size, warmth/"musicality", and good size/quality/bass per dollar spent used, you might try a pair of Merlin Excalibers. As I remember they are about 6'-6'6" tall, look a bit like very large and tall Vandersteen 3s, have a very "large" full-range sound. I enjoyed them, almost fell for them, and periodically wonder what it would be like to have them. |
Montana's, Dunlavy, Duntech, VMPS (bottom choice) Legacy Audio, Focus/Whisper, there's a bunch, or old Altec Voice of the Theatre or Klipsch K-horns with a Sub. I know what you're after but---- with the exception of those listed above and I'm certain there are others, it's tough to get what you're after. Brute force drivers tend to give up a little in finess. loon |
JBL L-200 or L-300 from the mid-70's. 15" woofer with 4" voice coil and 2o lb. or so ALNICO magnets. Or Altec Lansing model 19(?) I think, home version of the Voice of the Theatre. Or Klipsh horns. Now these speakers are IMHO much better than the Cerwin Vegas or other 15" jobs. All these other choices listed here are "hi-fi" jobs. For some reason there is no other sound like a really big powerful, forceful (as opposed to tubby flubby) 15" woofer. |
Big, smart accurate speakers you build yourself. Put JBL 2226 15" woofers in a 4.5 cu ft box and the cone/ribbon/compression tweeter of choice. Second order Butterworth on the tweeter and a 1.5 mH coil on the woofer. Or buy a kit. Or assembled: http://www.pispeakers.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/105 |
I use Acoustic Research 302's in both my main and 2 channel HT systems. They are 3 way; 10 inch woofer reissues of the AR5's and were updated by Ken Kantor of NHT fame. They were made in 1995 and there are enough pairs out there, as Accessories4less liquidated boatloads of the whole AR series about 4 years ago. Going price is usually in the $300 or so range. Check out Classic AR Speakers for more information. Nothing quite like the sound of acoustic suspension speakers and their approach to bass and sound, in general. Of current speakers, supposedly the JM Lab Chorus 707's offer a close to 8 inch woofer, but I have not heard these. Regards, Rich |
Have we forgot about Bose 901s. Any series will do. Just crank the equalizer bass control up. I haven't heard them in years but from what I recall they could really fill the room with BIG STUPID WARM sound. Very cheap for used. Sorry I just reread your question and noticed the "refined and high end" requirement. Forget the 901s. Good luck. |
Since you liked the earlier model I think you would do well to check out the current Polk Audio Lsi series. I think they would suit your desire for added warmth without sacrificing sound quality. I have heard the bookshelf models (Lsi 7 & 9) and they are excellent. There is a good review of the floorstanding Lsi 25's in the Product Review section which applies to your situation very well in regards to an HT system. I think the reviewer has some interesting comments on which model to choose for fronts. Good luck. |
L@@K at these Might be the one's "uppermidfi" is talking talking about. Including Sound Anchors, doesn't look like a bad deal. |