My approach with subs has always been "keep it simple". I start with one and place it, walking the tightrope of performance vs permissible location.
I throw on some bass heavy tracks and query A) Does it sound good? B) Can I locate the sub? If the answers are yes and no respectively, I leave it there.
IMHO an unfortunate symptom of audiophilia is the need to endlessly complicate everything.
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I can’t add much more expertise than MC and Atmosphere, but only my personal experience. MC is correct that more subs even out the bass nodes. Atmosphere is correct that larger cones mean less movement and a smoother response. I have a small sealed REL for a small room that works well with my stand mount Von Schweikert VR-1s. I have two Hsu subs that work well for my music room with HT. The idea that you don’t need subs is folly. Music and its harmonics go below 20 Hz. That’s the goal. I think it’s better to go with two or more subs properly positioned (see the Harmon white papers) is better than the best single sub. I recommend setting your highest budget and starting with two subs of good quality, position them properly and tune them to your system. Reach for sub 20 Hz at a reasonable level and add subs when you can. One expensive sub is not better than two subs of lesser “quality” for the same price if properly positioned. It takes time and effort. Ideally you won’t even know the subs are there, until you turn them off. Best of luck. Play on! |
I would totally go for 18" JBL subs. Four, to be precise. Or five. The more the better.
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For once, I actually agree with millercarbon. My subs are positioned to be and time aligned with my mains. However, as I often state, THERE IS NO "BEST" anything. It is all way too subjective.
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I repeat: There is no best anything. There is no best car, quarterback, tennis player, nor especially, no best speaker or amp.
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18 inch Bag End Infrasub.
I have 2 up front in a hometheatre/ stereo setting and a Mirage BPS 400.
I wouldnt change this setup for anything...ever! |
Hi All,
First time poster here. Thanks to the OP for the discussion topic.
I've also been contemplating sub(s) for my 2 channel setup. There is many that say 2 subs is the best way to go. Can someone explain this philosophy a bit more (simple terms preferred)? I have a small-ish music room (13 x 11 1/2). The REL T/5x is my target but my mind is telling me that 2 subs in this room is going to be A LOT of sub. Is the dual sub more for balancing both channels to have depth added vs lopsided if only 1 sub? Again, 2 subs in this room seems overkill but I may not be taking into account more than volume (in room measurement and SPL).
As a listener's room size goes up would a person simply scale up the size of the subs to the larger T/7x, T9x or the S series? Is there a 2 channel music scenario where adding 1 sub makes sense Vs. 2 subs?
My humble setup includes - AVA CF Pre, Odyssey Stratos Stereo PA, B&W CM9s, Schitt Bifrost MB, Vintage Sony DD Turntable, Denon DL-110 cart, Moon 110LP Phono
Thanks in advance for any responses.
-Sam |
mijostyn - Thank you for the warm welcome. I agree, pro sound / commercial amps may be all you need for subs. I have used QSC amps for decades and they are very solid performers. As well, a decent Crown professional amp isn't too expensive and will drive (home) subs with the good damping factors found in those amps. Your assessment of 1,000 watts of A/B power with high damping factor for subs is spot on.
Side Note: The JBL SDA-2200 amplifier is the identical twin to the Arcam PA-240. Somewhat clinical sounding in audio reproduction, but very, very accurate and controlling of the driver. Plenty of power too for in the home and the ability to bridge the amp for mono use is helpful in my situation.
ditusa - The B460's are fantastic. Great sounding and looking sub for home use. What do you use for power on them?
I've played my system for two audiophile friends that have great, reference systems
for the first time after I had it complete this spring. The look on their face when they hear subs at this level (not just volume, but sound quality) is priceless. It's just a whole different experience when that area below 50 hertz is fully realized by a decent driver designed specifically for that frequency range with good power behind it (and crossed over correctly). I'm not saying my system is excellent or of audiophile quality (though I do highly recommend the 4349's)...it's just very enjoyable (to me) and has made me want to listen to music much more now than I had in the past 15 years. I'm also lucky I have a large enough room to enjoy it in and my wife couldn't care less about how many big, ugly boxes I stack up in the living room. I'm fortunate she enjoys the new system too.
I have noticed a large shift in music production recently where it's obvious the music is being mixed and mastered on studio monitors with extended low frequency reproduction and with instruments with the computing power to get down low. Where as you used to have listen to pipe organ music 30 years ago to get into really deep frequencies, standard pop tracks are reaching way down into the 40's and 30's (or maybe lower at times). [Grab some rock albums from the late '70's or early '80's and you wonder if they mixed it on anything but Yamaha NS-10's. Is the kick drum and bass guitar really in the mix...?] Another argument for adding subs to your two channel system. D_mn, I'm having fun with the mess of junk I have in my living room.
Great discussion, and again, thank you for letting me add to it. |
To the fellow who said there is nothing below 160hz, if you're serious about that statement, it might surprise you that some people listen to music that you obviously don't. |
There is many that say 2 subs is the best way to go. Can someone explain this philosophy a bit more (simple terms preferred)? Yes. If the subs are asked to go above about 80Hz they will begin to attract attention to themselves. At this point you'll need two, one for the left and right in the same vicinity as your main speakers. If the subs have no output above 50-60 Hz it won't matter where you put them so long as you can get the bass right at the listening chair. This might be hard with only 2 subs; very easy with 4 as discussed prior in this thread. |
+1 for Rythmik. Can't beat a well-done servo for musical bass, IMO.
As for nothing below 160 Hz, I've got a few words for you:
Toccata and Fugue in D Minor (as well as a LOT of pipe organ music, just to name one source).
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@atmasphere , since JH raised the issue of amplification, what do you think? I'm getting what I think is good performance with an older Bryston SST.
How important is the amplifier in a system of subs? |
How important is the amplifier in a system of subs? Almost any solid state amp made in the last 30-40 years has enough feedback to play the bass right (that's why solid state has always been known for good bass - good mids and highs? -that's another story...). Avoid any solid state amp that does not have a direct coupled output and you should be fine as long as it has enough power. |
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This article http://www.soundoctor.com/whitepapers/break-in.htm is a little bombastic but overall there is not much I can argue with. It is a good article for millercarbon to read. He won't like it but, he should read it anyway. He does not start talking about digital signal processing till the end of the article even though he is obviously a fan. It seems he thinks this is above most of us. |
@jheppe815, Hi, I run the JBL B460's with a Crown studio reference 1 amp which runs on a dedicated 240 volt 30 amp circuit. IMHO: The Crown
studio reference 1 amp is the best sounding amp Crown makes. All the power you will ever need in a home hi fi rig. Also the B460's have an efficiency of 2.6%, same efficiency as my main speakers. The subs and the mains have a sensitivity of 96 dB @ 1 watt two meters, so they are a good match. I run the main speakers with a pair of Quicksilver silver 60 mono block tube amps. The system sounds effortless. https://technicalaudio.com/pdf/Crown_International/Crown_Studio_Reference_Series_Manual.pdf |
I’ll add another thumbs up for Rythmik subs. I have a pair with my Revel speaker system. The subs integrate flawlessly and are tight, fast and musical. The founder of Rythmik is a huge music fan and designs subs for music. They also happen to sound pretty dang good for HT as well. |
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jheppe815, Your post had me lamenting over my pair of Marantz 8B powered DIY JBL 4530 scoops I used in a back line stage Bass rig in the mid 60's.
JBL was so approachable and helpful during that period.
My current back packable Upshot rig weighs just 14 lbs.
That 8B was my roundabout introduction to Hi-Fi. |
multiple subs and how you arrange them, personally I like the way my Martin Logan subs integrate with my various systems |
There is no best anything.
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I have a single REL S5 mated to my Klipsch Cornwall IV speakers. The Cornwalls don't need much supplementation at the bottom end but I think the S5 integrates perfectly with them. My S5 is set to roll off at the top end at about 32.5Hz. All my audiophile friends that have listened to my system complement how well the S5 integrates with the CW IVs. Signal Cable makes a great Speakon connector subwoofer cable that I use to attach to my power amp's binding posts. |
There is no best anything. Ah, com'on? Off the top of my head: Flint's ribs. A Fenton's Black & Tan sunday. The 1982 South swell. Jimi! |
@mijostyn -- I do not know where this differentiation between home theater subwoofers and HiFi subwoofers came from. There are good subwoofers and bad subwoofers. Perhaps home theater people tend to buy bad subwoofers. Good subwoofers will do anything. They are even better at doing theater than bad subwoofers.
Most commercial subwoofers are not even fit for home theater duty. ...
Much in agreement here. It is very hard to make an enclosure that works at a reasonable price not to mention terrible cross over strategies. Play anything with a lot of bass and put your hand on your subwoofer. That vibration and shaking is distortion. Ideally you should be able to put your hand on it and feel absolutely nothing. I made 200 lb enclosures out of solid surface material and I could still feel some vibration. Next versions will be better. Front loaded horns, tapped horns and (other) high order bandpass subs lend themselves better to enclosure rigidity due to the horn paths and chamber innards inherent to their construction. That said adding density by factor 2 or more to such cabs that easily take up 20 cf. of volume, and already weigh in at +200 lbs, is highly impractical and would seem to miss the forest for the trees; I’d much prefer their virtues of higher efficiency, better cone to air coupling and bigger effective air radiation area at a lesser package density than a smaller, less efficient and relatively heavier ditto. Stay away from ported subwoofers. Subwoofers have to move a lot of air and it is very hard to avoid port noise. It is better to stick with sealed designs and correct the frequency response with power and room control.
That’s an unfortunate generalization. Sealed designs are hideously inefficient, and power only gets you so far - unless you have an abundance of displacement. Moreover mechanical stress associated driver noise would be obvious due to it being direct radiating - this goes for all DR designs. Ported designs when tuned low (with prodigious venting area) and using large diameter higher efficiency pro drivers can lead to good results, and if port noise would be prevalent here I’d suspects SPL’s to be substantial. Front loaded and tapped horn subs suffer no horn path noise. Theoretically it’s not impossible, but you’d have likely bought the farm by them - certainly structural integrity of your housing. Tapped horns have the driver "exposed" at the mouth area (re: mechanical driver sound issues), but with excursion minima at the tune are even better loaded compared to FLH’s, and so distortion levels are lower due to less cone movement at all but at the absolute limit of their capabilities (hence the prevailing logic of headroom). Regardless of the size of the room the minimum size is two 12" drivers or four 10" drivers. Bigger and more is always better. The less work any single driver has to do the lower will be the distortion. Making sub bass requires long excursions which take the suspension out of it’s linear operating range. Bigger and multiple drivers do not have to move as far.
Front loaded horns and tapped horns (and other high order BP designs) are force multipliers; a 15" driver like the one used in my tapped horns is the equivalent of some two 18" direct radiating drivers - both due to the horn loading of the front wave of the driver, as well as the taking advantage of its summed output from the back wave - although they present bass quite differently to one another and hereby making comparisons a bit tricky in this regard. When you factor in high efficiency, large effective air radiation area and excellent loading of the driver (with proper motor force and other criteria met) that has the cabinet/horn do the heavy lifting, it equates into effortlessness in reproduction like few others. |
I love subs in my system! I’m currently running two JL Audio F113 Fathoms in stereo using balanced cables running from my Ayre preamp. When setup and tuned correctly they sound amazing! They work very well with my Egglestonworks Andra II’s. |
@jheppe815 -- 18’s in a home? That seems illogical and nonsense. However, those cones simply don’t move at low to moderate levels. Again, goes back to what mijostyn states about low distortion levels when the cones (air pistons really) are not moving much. I have zero vent noise or chuffing. Again, being a sealed cabinet guy, I was quite hesitant on these cabinets but after implementation of the system, that large driver (and it’s construction) simply sounds good. At full tilt with the drivers reproducing frequencies in the 20’s, it’s scary as to how much fun it is. I have other systems in the house in smaller rooms with tiny cabinets (and one system with a tiny subwoofer) and 50 watts of power, but I hardly listen to them anymore due to just how much fun it is to listen to a large system with subs driven by big power in a big room.
Welcome to the forum, and thanks for chiming in with your experience - the specifics or nature of which I find is sorely needed around this place. Practically it’s not about having too much bass/sub capacity (i.e.: displacement area) than it is typically having all too little and badly implemented at that. I can certainly vouch for the importance of headroom, in effect for reasons you and a few others have already pointed out, so "18’s in a home" would seem the logical choice that actually does make sense. I’ll probably get promptly booted out of here and banned for life for suggesting 18" JBL drivers on an audiophile forum, but just wanted to share my experiences and I’m having a ton of fun with this setup. ...
Years ago I had my stare at a friend’s home set-up with twin EV TL880D ported cinema subs (2 x 18" per cab), not to mention their sonic impact both quantitatively and qualitatively. I’ve since gone on to acquire a pair of 15"-loaded horn-based subs instead, as I find their imprinting in the lowest octaves to be the most natural I’ve heard among any bass principles. They kick harder in the central to upper bass, even tuned as low as their direct radiating 18"-loaded EV counterparts, yet have a more "liquid," smooth and enveloping presentation. Few know of the sound of horn subs, let alone ones covering the "power region" - that’s a shame. |
I have owned over 20 subs and the tightest most accurate bass I’ve ever heard for music is with subs from Stereo Integrity |
I concur with MC and atmosphere, et al, that four subwoofers are the way to go. If you can drop $3k on a good sub, there are many modern mfrs that can sell you 4 subs at $750. When positioned properly, they will shock you with the far better sound you'll get in your room when compared to any other single sub. No kidding.
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Having talked myself out of "no sub is the best sub' (based on multiple sub failures) I was willing to try again based on the sheer logic of roll off on Klipsch Lascala under 50 hz. (But what can possibly be added with such a low frequency?) A LOT or so I am hearing. I think my sub negativity was based on sloppy subs.
Velodyne, Boston Acoustics, Sunfire, all complete fails. Blobby, sloppy, intrusive, distracting, these sub par experiences turned me sour on the whole idea. Ladies and Gentlemen, I introduce you to SVS subs. Bought the sealed box SB-2000 pro thinking to probably upgrade with Crutchfield deal. Only $800. Crazy cheap, expected to be wasting my time. Hard to express how wrong i've been to avoid a quality subwoofer. Added super AC cord (helped alot!) |
I have buddy working on 60 inch woofer be power with 10 watt tube amp and hit hard like you mother wrap that guy in the head with monkey wrench when he try to take you daddy 76 caddy hub cap. Big time bass roll from this woofer shake you like I shake my wife sister after workout in my basement after rocking to my Maggie system. You no need big power with big tool. |
Interesting feedback reading over this and general agreement which does not often happen here.
So 2+ subs are preferred for music and essentially any high quality brand will work well.
I confirm this by mixing 2 Scansonic driver based subs with a Martin Logan 212 for a large room. |
